From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #631 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 6 March 1996 Volume 05 : Number 631 In this issue: Re: Weekday WINGS Re: C17 reborn.. Re: Mo better rockets Re: SR-71 presentation Re: Weekday WINGS Re: Senior Citizen finally uncovered! Did it burn or blow up? Can anybody help here? RE: Weekday WINGS re: Can anybody help here? President Meets Intelligence Review Commission Re: Senior Citizen finally uncovered! Re: Weekday WINGS Re: Did it burn or blow up? Aliens among us... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 10:49:23  Subject: Re: Weekday WINGS Ya want Alien Conspiracy? I'll give ya Alien Conspiracy... One of the things that is showing up in the technical and trade press recently is the potential use of "smart skin" as a stealth technology. Smart skin would deflect radar actively, rather than passively as is done by the B-2, F-117, etc. This would mean designers wouldn't have to design their aircraft's shape around RCS reduction requirements anymore, and the performance compromises and extra costs incurred due to stealth requirements could be minimized. Because it would be relatively low power, you'd have to be extremely close in order to detect any emanations from the smart skin itself. In addition, smart skin supposedly will "move" IR emanations from where they're actually occurring to other areas of the fuselage. Finally, smart skin is supposed to take on the reflectivity of the surrounding sky, making a plane so equipped extremely difficult to see. Of course, when the equipped aircraft using active sensors to acquire and track a target, and when the weapons bay doors open it will be necessary that the smart skin's protection be "broken" during that period, but that's only going to be a short time to launch. Lessee now... Can't be detected by active or passive sensors? Essentially "invisible" when in the sky except for a slight distortion detectable only when you're very close? The equipped aircraft only becomes detectable for a brief period to fire? Probably tested at Groom Lake (Area 51?)!!???!!!???!!! OMIGOSH! It IS the ROMULAN CLOAKING DEVICE!!!!! Art "Dammit, I need that power Now" Hanley To assume that anything written here reflects my employers' views would be illogical. ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 12:02:07  Subject: Re: C17 reborn.. In defense of Gen. Glosson, it's important to keep in mind his whole position. He said that for the things that C-17s do that nothing else can, it's definitely the best plane. However, the point he was asserting was that we only need 50-60 C-17s to do that. The rest of the mission, in his opinion, could be accomplished by derivatives of commercial aircraft for less money (the difference might be even more dramatic if we converted existing older versions of current aircraft that are available at bargain prices). He also made a key recommendation: That the money saved be used to equip the new and older airlift fleet with up to date avionics to allow our airlifters to routinely operate in the kind of weather that commercial airliners operate in. He talked about how it doesn't matter that much how much you can carry if when you get to the destination you don't have the approach aids aboard to allow you to actually land. He indicated that this was a big problem, and he was offering a way to address it by changing priorities. His point is key. A very small percentage of our logistics actually goes by air, so what we do send is very time sensitive. He's saying that beyond a certain point, it's better to have a lot of planes that can get into a large airfield not too far away than to have a limited number of planes that can get into a smaller airfield that's somewhat closer. Otherwise, following his reasoning, we lose the advantage of airlifting. It's a compelling, though not necessarily decisive, argument. Art Hanley My employer has nothing to do with anything in this message [except to make me write this] ------------------------------ From: keller@eos.ncsu.edu Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 16:56:40 EST Subject: Re: Mo better rockets [deletia] Chuck shaped the electrons & holes to say: >True Paul, > but to quote I beleive, Shakespeare, "all that glimmers is >not gold.." >The lower the propellant mass, the lower the density. The lower the >density, the more volume it takes up. The more volume it takes up, >the more drag you create getting it out to the thin air of space. >Also, the more volume, the greater the mass of the containment >vessel. Now you need more mass...........>... >How many m/sec 2 you looking to get? For a nuker I would think you >wan`t a slow, steady motor. These have pretty low T/M ratios (obviously > ah, duh.... sorry ) so extra tank mass would be restrictive. >The Thiocol engines have aluminum added to the fuel to ADD mass to >the exhaust. (Hey, maybe its just "stop leak" radiator sealer) > Good clue there for budding rocket scientists. > > What this all means is that for any specific rocket propulsion mission there >is an optimum molecular weight for the fuel(s). >With a nuclear rocket this may be much more restrictive than first >realized. The low density of pure hydrogen means that you will be >lugging around a lot of unused tank. Remeber your "pi" ratios, they >apply in space, also. You can blow off smaller tanks as they used up, but >the shift in center of mass and resulting control inputs may negate >the effectiveness of such a plan. (Ever notice Voyager and others carried >empty tanks around!) >Many feel the use of LH2 was a big mistake for the Rockwell >system. >It nessecitated a HUGE propellant tank. The extra drag and structural >weight reduced its payload (though it ain`t bad). A lot of guys I`ve talked >with think good ol` RP would have worked better, and the Arabs would >have loved it, too. >A think a very real problem with a nuclear rocket would be chugging. >Think about it. In a chemical rocket chugging is only due to fuel flow >problems. If you add the heat flow and reactor temperature transients >you will have a very complicated system indeed. The characteristic is >certain to have imaginary roots, so you have control problems. >I`m certaintly no expert on nuclear reactors, but from what little I >know I don`t think the rapid heat flow adjustments required would >be feasible. >Are you guys aware of any study along these lines? I suppose I could get around to answering this, since I did do a little research on this last night. First of all, there isn't anything here that even addresses the bottom line on mission performance, much less that attempts to refute what I and plenty of others have said. Some of it is either fallacious, or irrelevent, to it: Yes, you do want a slow, steady engine. It's fairly easy to design to a nuke which can burn for hours, if you can supply keep it supplied with reaction mass that long. This minimizes the low T/M problem, and structural problems of high thrust are alleviated as well. This doesn't just make Isp valuable, it makes it the holy grail. To get off the ground, then, yes, you need high thrust, but even SDIO isn't crazy enough to want to do that with a nuke. Most interplanetary concepts use a long, splindly design, w/reactor at one end, payload at the other, drop tanks in the middle=>minimal c.g. shift from dropping tanks[1]. Yes, reactor dynamics, stability and control have all been very well studied. You won't find much in recent literature (back to about 25 years or so), because it's been studied to death, and thus it's pretty much a dead horse, at least for any solid fueled reactor. Chugging in nuclear systems has been studied, sometime at least back in the 60s, if not 50s. It's not a problem above 20% of critical pressure, and even below that it's confined to boiling water reactors with their heavy nuclear/thermalhydraulic coupling due to boiling water serving as both coolant and moderator. Rocket operating pressures are generally around 1000 psi[1], or about 3x critical pressure for H2. Ah, yes, but then you have to worry about supercritical nuclear coupled density wave oscillations. That's a different animal... Finally, I was sufficiently annoyed with this to pay a visit to a library, in this case, mine, of AvWeek back issues, to fish out the performance numbers an SDIO contractor came up with for Timberwind-based vehicle concepts[2]. Even if we all agree that we don't care for their mission plans on environmental and safety grounds, their performance numbers are technically instructive. The most interesting comparison is their advanced Atlas/Centaur, since it pits their nuclear rocket against the Centaur upper stage, which, in spite of being thirty years old, still can't be beaten by very much by anything other than a nuke. For that vehicle, they're claiming to be able to put 27,000 lbs into LEO, a Titan-IV class payload, on a vehicle that weighs 311,000 lbs at takeoff, less than that of an Atlas 1[3]. Their advanced Titan will put 150,000 lbs into LEO on the same initial mass as a Titan IV. But, even I will admit that that's not a fair comparison, since that pits the nuke against the poor hypergolic stages of the existing Titan core vehicle. Note well that sending things into orbit on a nuke isn't even a very good use for them. The relatively high thrust & shorter duration burns involved, even on an upper stage, make more of a disadvantage of the low T/M ratio of the engine. At this point I'd suggest we agree to disagree on this, since this is, after all, off-topic, and it doesn't have much educational content for others on the list anymore. If you still want to argue, fine, but then I want to see referenced mission performance analyses. References: 1. AW & ST, Dec. 2, 1991, p. 38. 2. AW & ST, April 8, 1991, p. 18. 3. AW & ST, Jan. 8, 1996, p. 116. Paul Keller keller@eos.ncsu.edu My opinions, not my employers. ------------------------------ From: albert.dobyns@mwbbs.com (ALBERT DOBYNS) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 16:52:00 -0500 Subject: Re: SR-71 presentation K&AG> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 01:41:50 -0500 (EST) > From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl > Subject: Re: SR-71 presentation K&AG> The SR-71 presentation of Tom Allison, curator of the National Air and Sp > Museum, and also retired SR-71 pilot, is postponed from March 4th, 1996, > April 1st, 1996. It will still be held at the Fraternal Order of Police L > at Seven Corners, Virginia, though. One of life's ironies: I spent most of my youth in Arlington, Va and used to go to the mall at Seven Corners often! Haven't seen it in many years, but I think I'd recognize it. K&AG> It costs $60 per couple, and reservations are necessary. Tom Allison is n > not selling or signing books of his own, but there will be a door > prize, consisting of a signed SR-71 pilots manual. I wonder if it's the one published by Motorbooks/Zenith Books or if it's a copy of one in loose-leaf format. I'll accept it in either format! :) K&AG> We planned to attend, but $60 is a hefty price... We were packed and read > for the trip to Washington D.C., but since we had not received an answeri > email yet from the contact, we called him and found out the above. Oh wel > the postponement allows us to go to the USAFM at Dayton instead, as we ha > wanted to do for quite a while. :) It's a first-rate aviation museum.....but I bet you know that by now! K&AG> I hope they repeat the U-2 show on PBS soon, because I missed the first 4 > minutes -- which made me quite grumpy. I think you missed some good footage of the early U-2 fligts from a certain test location in Nevada. :) One other thing I almost forgot to nitpick about. I believe the guest speaker spells his last name Alison rather than with 2 "l"s. I noticed that on his name tag on his uniform when he appeared in the Discovery Channel's WINGS episode. K&AG> -- Andreas K&AG> --- > Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org > 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu > Flint, MI 48502-1239 > Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schna > --- Regards from Al * SLMR 2.1a * You can have your SR in any color as long as it's black! ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:48:31 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Weekday WINGS On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 ahanley@usace.mil wrote: > advertising pitches the "ominous" observation going on by the CIA Right!Now! > while we Least! Expect! It! This may be like a some of the WINGS shows. It's! Hosted! By! William! Shatner!...? - --Brett ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 15:53:48 PST Subject: Re: Senior Citizen finally uncovered! Since Andreas decided to engage in some satire about the classified, Special Access Required program code-named Senior Citizen, here's another satirical piece... This one is about a different classified transport aircraft program, code-named Theme Castle. (Based on what I know, the real "Theme Castle" may be the C-5C transport aircraft.) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - U.S. Air Force Public Affairs Office March 5, 1996 The U.S. Air Force today declassified a secret transport aircraft program code-named 'Theme Castle'. The purpose of 'Theme Castle' was to carry hundreds of thousands of tourists (and their obnoxious offspring) to Southern California, so that they would clog the roads and annoy the local residents, particularly during the summer months. Theme Castle aircraft have been landing at Los Angeles International Airport, Long Beach Airport, John Wayne Airport (Orange County), and Ontario Airport, releasing their cargo of desperate families. Theme Castle flights can be identified by participants yelling the pass phrase, "Are we there yet?" The Air Force psychological warfare (PSYOP) director, Lt. Col. Harvey Pekkarhed said "The purpose of the Theme Castle program was to study the behavior of our citizens, under conditions similar to invasion and occupation, so that we can understand the long term strategic planning needs of the United States." He also noted that Southern Californians have adapted their habits to the invasion and tend to avoid areas like Disneyland that were the locus of the invasions. Colonel Pekkarhed said, "the natives of Southern California have shown remarkable patience, and no one has downed a Theme Castle aircraft with a surface to air missile." - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ From: David Lednicer Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:21:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Did it burn or blow up? This is not semantics - there is a definite difference between something burning and blowing up. Burning is combustion and exploding is detonating. As an example, your car's engine works by rapidly burning the fuel-air mixture in the cylinder - this is combustion. When your car's engine starts pinging, this is detonation. According to my old gas dynamics text, a detonation produces a supersonic shock wave, while a subsonic combustion wave is refered to as deflagration. A small quibble - actually, Challenger's right wing was torn off by the right solid booster as it tore loose. If you ever come across a copy, the final report of the Rogers Commission makes interesting reading. According to the report, the shuttle program in 1985/86 was an accident waiting to happen, in several areas. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ From: David Lednicer Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:35:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can anybody help here? One of my side interests is modeling and analyzing aircraft of historical interest in the Computational Fluid Dynamics software that my company develops and sells. Previously, I have looked at the Beech Staggerwing, Gee Bee R-2, P-51 Mustang, Spitfire IX, Fw 190, etc. Current projects are the Me 262, DC-3, Spirit of St. Louis and the U-2C. About a year ago, I made a request to NASA/Ames that they supply me with the U-2C loft data. I was told that it had all been officially thrown away, but people had saved copies for sentimental purposes. One fellow there (a Lockheed engineer supporting the ER-2) offered to put it through security review so that I could legally have the data. This was a year ago, and he says that security is dragging their heels. My question: does anybody know how I can go about filing a Freedom of Information Act request to expedite this process? As all the U-2Cs are gone, and the U-2R only bears passing resemblence, you would think that the data would be no big deal (and covered by last year's Executive Order). - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ From: "Mark E. Schmidt" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 03:52:25 UT Subject: RE: Weekday WINGS I thought I saw a promo tonight on Discovery that said this show was on Sunday? I'm not sure. Also, the promo led me to believe it was the first in a series of shows . .. . - ---------- From: owner-skunk-works@mail.orst.edu on behalf of ahanley@usace.mil Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 12:15 PM To: skunk-works@mail.orst.edu Subject: Re: Weekday WINGS Next Monday night the Discovery Channel will be doing a special on "Spies in the Sky". It is focusing on recon. sattelites. Part of the advance advertising pitches the "ominous" observation going on by the CIA Right! Now! while we Least! Expect! It! This may be like a some of the WINGS shows. "Where we're good, we're really good; But where we're wrong, we're really, really wrong". Art Hanley Don't even think, not for a second, That what I said above has anything To do with my employer's position. ------------------------------ From: TRADER@cup.portal.com Date: Tue, 5 Mar 96 19:18:52 PST Subject: re: Can anybody help here? In a previous transmission, David Lednicer wrote: >does anybody know how I can go about filing a Freedom of Information Act >request to expedite this process? I've done so many of these that I think FOIA is my middle name (people go around yelling "Yo, Foy-ya!"...) . The process is fairly simple. First, find the address of the agency. I don't happen to have NASA's FOIA address, but you can direct these things (in writing) to the Public Affairs Office of whatever facility has the data you need, and it will be duly submitted to the proper legal authorities. Then, write a letter indicating that it is a request under the Freedom of Information Act (5 U.S.C. 552 as amended). Be explicit about what you want, so they know where to look for it. Also, you normally get the first 100 pages, plus 2 hours of their time for free, then they start charging you. Indicate a maximum of how much you are willing to spend in fees (normally 10 cents per page copying costs and $25 per hour for some bureaucrat's time). If you are a legitimate journalist, they may waive the fees. Each agency publishes its FOIA procedures in the Code of Federal Regulations (which most large libraries carry) and any updates in the Federal Register. You can go to the legal section of a good library and use the CFR Index to locate the appropriate sections. For example, the Department of Defense FOIA regulations are in 32 CFR 285-286 (this is a legal abbreviation -- it means find Title 32 of the CFR, then look for Sections 285 and 286.) Also, the FOIA procedures in the CFR tell you the agency's fees, and where to send requests. There is some material on my Web site about the FOIA (see below). Be aware that the electronic copy of "A Citizen's Guide on using the FOIA" from Congress is rather old. The current edition can be found as House of Representatives report 104-156 in legal or federal document libraries. I'm tempted to get perhaps a dozen copies and mail them out free to people who ask for them. Perhaps, someday in the future, I will do this. Let me know if you have any problems or other FOIA questions. Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.portal.com/~trader/secrecy.html ------------------------------ From: "Mark E. Schmidt" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 04:22:45 UT Subject: President Meets Intelligence Review Commission - -------- ## Regarding your request: SEND WHITE-HOUSE 5417 Title:1996-03-01 President Meets Intelligence Review Commission Document-Date:Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:05-0500 Keywords: Defense, Event-Notice, Foreign, Government, International-Security, Notice, Organization, Personnel, Security Message-Id: <19960302210529.1.Mail-Server@CLINTON.AI.MIT.EDU> Document-ID: PDI://OMA.EOP.GOV.US/1996/3/2/3.TEXT.1 THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary _________________________________________________________________ For Immediate Release March 1, 1996 STATEMENT BY THE PRESS SECRETARY The President met today with the members of the Commission on Roles and Capabilities of the United States Intelligence Community to receive their report. Led by former Secretary of Defense Harold Brown and former Senator Warren Rudman, the Commission is composed of 17 members, 9 of whom were appointed by the President and 8 appointed by the congressional leadership of both parties. The mandate of the Commission -- established in October 1994 -- was to provide an appraisal of the intelligence community's current capabilities and structure, and to provide guidance to meet the intelligence challenges of the 21st century. The Commission has reaffirmed that intelligence capabilities are a critical element of our national strength, and has suggested a number of steps to improve the organization and performance of intelligence collection and analysis. The President is in full agreement with their conclusion of the essential importance of intelligence to our national security and that there is a continuing need for a strong intelligence community as we approach the 21st century. The President expressed his appreciation for the Commission's efforts, saying that the group had developed what appeared to be a number of thought-provoking and useful proposals. He assured the Commission that he, CIA Director John Deutch and the Administration's national security team will give very serious attention to these recommendations. The Administration expects to have a detailed response to the Commission's report shortly. # # # ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:18:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Senior Citizen finally uncovered! On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > McDonnell Douglas' Phantom Works must have secretly updated the design with ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I wonder if this is a similar group like Skunk Works but for McDonnel Douglas. Anyone know? May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:59:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Weekday WINGS On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com wrote: > Art, > be carefull, they can tell who is typing what! These are part of an > alien conspiracy to dominate the humans. Don't take it as a joke... If we have a relative primitive technology of cloaking... what do you thing what a high technology alien have? > And remember....... Look to the Skies! Better watch at your side... alien can be sitting down next to you and you don't even know it... Proof... very easy. A good example is I-Ching (the book of the Mutation). The computer that is in front of you is based of I-Ching... Yin and Yang, Positive and Negative... Binaries number!!!! The first computer was name in honor of the chinese guy that transcript the I-Ching. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu Since I am un-employ... I can say anything!!! :) ------------------------------ From: jgregor@bitbucket.engr.sgi.com (John Gregor) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:00:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Did it burn or blow up? > A small quibble - actually, Challenger's right wing was torn off by the > right solid booster as it tore loose. If you ever come across a copy, > the final report of the Rogers Commission makes interesting reading. > According to the report, the shuttle program in 1985/86 was an accident > waiting to happen, in several areas. Check out the following: http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/51-l/docs/rogers-commission/table-of-contents.html I highly recommend Appendix F. - -JohnG ------------------------------ From: jgregor@bitbucket.engr.sgi.com (John Gregor) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 01:17:54 -0800 Subject: Aliens among us... Su Wei-Jen yapped: > Better watch at your side... alien can be sitting down next to you > and you don't even know it... This is from http://comedy.clari.net/rhf/jokes/88q1/9742.html: YOUR CO-WORKER COULD BE A SPACE ALIEN, SAY EXPERTS ... here's how you can tell (by Michael Cassels of the "National Inquirer") Many Americans work side by side with space aliens who look human - but you can spot these visitors by looking for certain tip-offs, say experts. They listed 10 signs to watch for: 1. Odd or mismatched clothes. "Often space aliens don't fully understand the different styles, so they wear combinations that are in bad taste, such as checked pants with a striped shirt or a tuxedo jacket with blue jeans or sneakers," noted Brad Steiger, a renowned UFO investigator and author. 2. Strange diet or unusual eating habits. Space aliens might eat French fries with a spoon or gobble down large amounts of pills, the experts say. 3. Bizarre sense of humor. Space aliens who don't understand earthly humor may laugh during a serious company training film or tell jokes that no one understands, said Steiger. 4. Takes frequent sick days. A space alien might need extra time off to "rejuvenate its energy," said Dr. Thomas Easton, a theoretical biologist and futurist. 5. Keeps a written or tape recorded diary. "Aliens are constantly gathering information." said Steiger. 6. Misuses everyday items. "A space alien may use correction fluid to paint its nails," said Steiger. 7. Constant questioning about customs of co-workers. Space aliens who are trying to learn about earth culture might ask questions that seem stupid, Easton said. "For example, a co-worker may ask why so many Americans picnic on the Fourth of July," noted Steiger. 8. Secretive about personal life-style and home. "An alien won't discuss domestic details or talk about what it does at night or on weekends," said Steiger. 9. Frequently talks to himself. "An alien may not be used to speaking as we do, so an alien may practice speaking," Steiger noted. 10. Displays a change of mood or physical reaction when near certain high-tech hardware. "An alien may experience a mood change when a microwave oven is turned on," said Steiger. The experts pointed out that a co-worker would have to display most if not all of these traits before you can positively identify him as a space alien. - -JohnG ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #631 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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