From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #651 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 23 April 1996 Volume 05 : Number 651 In this issue: Re: CNN news segment about the Blackbird Re: Interesting commercial Re: CNN news segment about the Blackbird Re: Airspeed Meter question... Re: CNN news segment about the Blackbird SR-71 Grounded! SR-71 cost per photo USAF Rental stealthy satellites? DarkStar down ? Chicken Gun revisited Re: Chicken Gun revisited SR-71 Flights Suspended Darkstar UAV Crashes Skunk-Works Re: Chicken Gun revisited Re: Chicken Gun revisited Re: DarkStar down ? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mary Shafer Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: CNN news segment about the Blackbird I'd say that the million-dollar-per-flight price is pretty accurate for what the USAF was shelling out before the retirement. Consider everything that they have to provide--the base, housing, medical, security, exchange, benefits, overhead, personnel, paperwork people, life support, procurement, and so on. If you add the entire cost of running a dedicated base, you're going to be spending a lot of money. The $40,000 is absurdly low. The fuel costs more than that. We fly the plane for about $100,000 per hour. We're cheaper than the USAF beause we only have two flying and we don't have dedicated people. Rather our people work on a lot of projects and the SR-71 has only an incremental cost. However, I suspect that I could make the cost come out to be anything I wanted it to be. It's all in how you decide what should be charged to what. Whenever you see a price, ask yourself what the point is. If it's too expensive, you can be sure that everything, no matter how tenuously related, was charged to the aircraft. If you see a lost cost, then everything possible wasn't charged to the aircraft if another explanation could be found. "Figures don't lie, but liars figure". Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: > I just saw a news report on CNN Headline News about the status of the > SR-71's missions. One person made a claim that I find hard to believe. > He said that the plane was so expensive to operate that the cost of each > picture taken was a million dollars!!! But another person said that the > cost to fly the SR is about $40,000 per hour. These two points seem to > contradict each other to the extreme, in my opinion. I find it easier > to accept the cost per flying hour than I do for the cost of each photo! > I guess there is still quite a bit of resistance in the Air Force to > have to continue the SR-71 program. People are still saying the spy > satellites do the job better than the SR, and that with the new UAVs > being tested, we are wasting money by trying to keep the SR's mission > ready. I continue to feel like there are other things of unknown > characteristics that are behind the termoil but the general public isn't > allowed to know all the details. Am I just being paranoid? Is there a > conspiracy behind all this? (sarcasm mode in effect for the previous > sentence!) I welcome anyone's opinions on the news report and my > comments. ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 13:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Interesting commercial Here in the Antelope Valley, home of the X-15, SR-71, and Space Shuttle, it's very popular. The car would be more popular if we weren't all poor gumment engineers who tend to buy Cutlasses. (My dealer made me take one for a test drive--I would have given him my first-born child, if I had one, for it.) Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Mike Smith wrote: > > Just saw an interesting commercial for the Oldsmobile > Aurora. The voice over said, "Top Speed: 3500 MPH, > oh, that's the Air Force's Aurora. Ours has never > been clocked over Mach 3." > > I got a kick out of it. > > Mike > > Mike Smith > msmith2@tandy.com > Ft. Worth, TX ------------------------------ From: kelleher@consilium.com (John Kelleher) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 96 12:59:09 -0700 Subject: Re: CNN news segment about the Blackbird ALBERT DOBYNS wrote: >I just saw a news report on CNN Headline News about the status of the >SR-71's missions. One person made a claim that I find hard to believe. >He said that the plane was so expensive to operate that the cost of each >picture taken was a million dollars!!! Healthy skepticism is a good thing, Albert. If that were the case, I'd have to say I'd seen the national debt in SR-71 imagery. The million dollar figure sounds more like what we used as the approximate *mission* cost for the Blackbird. That includes everything from maintenance, operations, tanker support, mission planning, recovery, and imagery exploitation. >People are still saying the spy satellites do the job better than the SR... They aren't bad - so long as global hot spots are guaranteed to pop up on a pre-arranged schedule that coincides with orbital parameters. The advantage of the SR is its availability on comparatively short notice to fly into otherwise un-forewarned areas. >and that with the new UAVs being tested, we are wasting money by trying >to keep the SR's mission ready. You've hit a big chunk of the problem. New UAVs being *tested* aren't ready to replace a system that's been *proven* effective. I believe the SR was prematurely retired, but whether the subsequent cost of reactivating it is more than what would have been spent maintaining it operationally is something I don't know. > Am I just being paranoid? Is there a conspiracy behind all this? > (sarcasm mode in effect for the previous sentence!) I'll take it on in any case, but my thoughts are as much conjecture as the next person's. Maybe the Air Force was caught with its knickers at its knees when the so-called "Aurora" didn't come through. Or maybe the original cancellation came as a result of losing a game of "chicken" with congressional budgeteers. Either way, forced reactivation of the SR and its subordinate structure has played havoc with AF planning and programming dollars. Considering that a lot of the SR's original proponents may have left when the bird first went into hibernation, it's not surprising to see resistance to bringing this old war horse back to operational status. John Kelleher ex-T8045 ------------------------------ From: "Steve Caldwell" Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:29:05 GMT+7 Subject: Re: Airspeed Meter question... - -snip- >Hello Skunkers... I have a question... maybe some Aerospace Eng. >in the list can answer me... Relative with airspeed, what is the meaning of KIAS? >There is any relation with Knots or Mach number? I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I have to convert from knots indicated air speed to knots true airspeed from time to time at work. If you know the pressure altitude, outside air temperature (OAT), and IAS, you can find out what the true airspeed (TAS) is. TAS is the actual speed through the air mass and in no-wind conditions is the same as ground speed. When wind is present, you apply wind effects to come up with groundspeed (GS) and drift correction angle (DCA). KIAS is the uncorrected reading from the airspeed indicator and may not be the same as the actual airspeed through the air mass. KIAS is approximately equal to KTAS near sea level. As your altitude increases, the relationship isn't the same. At FL 260, a KIAS of 280 is the same as 411 KTAS. At this altitude, 411 KTAS is the same as 0.686 mach (standard day conditions). I used a planning utility program that calculates these things on my PC. You can also perform rough and ready calculations with a MB-4 "computer" (a type of circular slide rule for navigation and aviation calculations). Steve ========================================================== Capt Steve Caldwell DSN: 781-5442 Comm: (318) 456-5442 Email: caldwels@det5wg57.barksdale.af.mil (Military) srcaldwe@iamerica.net (personal) ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 6:10:24 EDT Subject: Re: CNN news segment about the Blackbird Mary Shafer writes: > > I'd say that the million-dollar-per-flight price is pretty accurate for > what the USAF was shelling out before the retirement. Consider everything > that they have to provide--the base, housing, medical, security, exchange, > benefits, overhead, personnel, paperwork people, life support, > procurement, and so on. If you add the entire cost of running a dedicated > base, you're going to be spending a lot of money. > > The $40,000 is absurdly low. The fuel costs more than that. We fly the > plane for about $100,000 per hour. We're cheaper than the USAF beause we > only have two flying and we don't have dedicated people. Rather our > people work on a lot of projects and the SR-71 has only an incremental > cost. > Hi Mary, Everybody is saying how much the Blackbird costs to fly and you're right, it sounds astronomical. But consider the source. Does the government actually have a recon platform that sounds reasonable? I am curious about satellites, if you take into consideration literally everything and everyone it takes to make a satellite fly, how much is that per hour or photograph. The news always says how much the Blackbird costs, but not what the alternative costs. Just curious!!! :) - -- A hundred years from now, it will not matter what kind of house I live in, how much is in my bank account, or what kind of car I drive, but the world may be a different place because I was important in the life of a child. Douglas J. Tiffany dougt@u011.oh.vp.com Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SR-71 Grounded! This just in (not very good news)... >> DOD SUSPENDS SR-71 SPY PLANE FLIGHTS - Flights of the SR-71 Blackbird spy plane have been suspended by the Defense Department, grounding three aircraft operated by personnel from the 9th Reconnaissance Wing at Beale Air Force Base. [ARMED FORCES NEWSWIRE SERVICE] ------------------------------ From: Timothy Riley Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 06:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SR-71 cost per photo On 20 APR 96 Albert Dobyns wrote questioning CNNs reported cost of $1,000,000 for each of the Blackbirds photos. When I was on active duty as a photointerpreter, I was involved in a project with a guy whose primary job was SR-71 photointerpretation. He stated that it was a bitch because his boss wanted initial results of all images within six hours and scanning what he called the "usual mission return" of over a mile of film in that time was really difficult. Using a "standard" image size of 9x18 inches yields about 3500 images from this distance. Even I boggle at the thought of this amount of money! I have no problem with the $40,000/hr cost as this is in line with what I know about the per hour costs of the squadrons I was attached to. ------------------------------ From: BROWN A <92913938@mmu.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 11:09:20 GMT Subject: USAF Rental As the old MDD warranty card has resurfaced again, I figure it's about time I sent this out. It's an updated version of a thing I found in an old issue of "Punch". I hope you like it, as I think it's great. Adrian Brown. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AT USAF WE TRY HARDER. - ---------------------- USAF is the world's biggest and best military aviation hardware rental service with over fifty years of lend-lease experience behind us. We have a wide range of fighter planes ready for take-off, including such household names as the F-111, F-15, F-16, Phantom and the ever popular Starfighter. USAF is justifiably proud of its reputation for reliability and service and you can be sure that your plane is gremlin-free when it leaves us. ONE WAY SCRAMBLE:- You can return your fighter to any USAF base, cutting out that unnecessary round trip - quite a time-saver when you've got that pre-emptive strike to catch in a hurry. FLY CHUTE:- As a development of the integrated travel concept pioneered by USAF Rental, each fighter is equipped with an ejection seat. You can therefore travel in the sophisticated comfort and speed of, say, a USAF Northrop F-5 for the bulk of your journey and complete the final stage by parachute. (For further details refer to the non-returnable deposit details listed under insurance.) FUEL:- Although fuel is not included in the rates, as part of USAF's unbeatable client consideration we guarantee to supply you with a mid- air refuelling service if requested. Customers must, however, book in advance to avoid long delays at refuelling stops and the possibility of falling out of the sky with empty tanks. (For further details refer to the non-returnable deposit details listed under insurance.) Also, USAF accepts no responsibility for mis-matches in refuelling equipment. STANDARD RATES. Planes are loaned by the week and can be collected after 1200 hours Saturday and must be returned by 0930 hours Saturday. Any delay may result in a further charge. Aircraft fall into two catagories, A and B. Catagory A consists of all supersonic fighters including the whole Lockheed, MDD, Grumman and General Dynamics ranges. (Note that makers names are liable to change without notice.) Each aircraft comes complete with a full missile fit, (with a choice of AIM-7, AIM-9 and AIM-120), fully computerised navigation, auto-pilot and all-weather capability. Executive customers have the additional option of the very popular Lockheed F-117A and the F-22. (Subject to availability.) Catagory B is for the more budget-conscious customer and includes the Brewster Buffalo, Grumman Wildcat and a converted Catalina. Each aircraft comes complete with genuine leather helmet, goggles, scarf, a Lewis gun with a full eight rounds and a complimentary box of cigars. (Gum is an optional extra.) CATAGORY A. $12,000 per week + $1 per mile ($2 per mile over 120,000ft and Mach 2). CATAGORY B. $50 per week + 20c per mile (30c per mile and a Smithsonian Institute research grant if you manage 10,000ft and over 400mph). INSURANCE. Rates include unlimited coverage of public liability, of property damage and of passenger liability - in peacetime only. The company cannot be held responsible for any claims resulting from a declaration of war. In the event of a dispute, the company's decision as to what constitutes a "declaration" will be final. No correspondence will be entered into. Personal accident insurance is available to clients at a competitive rate and is recommended (especially those of you flying the F-16 or Starfighter). Cover against damage by fire, but not flak, is included. OVERSEAS USE. Aircraft may not be taken outside the continental USA without prior notification - even in declaration of war. ACCESSORIES. Customers are advised to check accessories against check-list provided before signing for aircraft. Any loss or damage will be charged for - including wing stress or missile use. USAF is not liable against accessory failure in parachute, ejection seat, cannon or missile systems. IF YOU WISH TO RENT AN AIRCRAFT FROM USAF, PLEASE COMPLETE THE FORM BELOW. NAME__________________________________________________________________ (familiar names such as Skipper, Tubby, Boots etc are not acceptable). RANK_______________________________ NUMBER_____________________________ TYPE OF MISSION. __Peace-keeping __Covert intelligence gathering __Show of strength __Punitive strike __Invasion __Ceremonial flypast __Farnborough/Paris airshow (Additional insurance required) TYPE OF PERFORMANCE __Subsonic __Supersonic __Pretty hairy __Unbelievable SONIC BOOM (if required) __Glass shattering __Tile shattering __Ear shattering __Skyquake ADDITIONAL WEAPONRY __None __Sinister __Impressive __Devastating __Holy s**t! DEPOSIT ($50 minimum catagory A, 50c catagory B) __Cheque __Credit card __Petty cash PAYMENT METHOD (Please contact Col. O. North to discuss other options) __Cheque __Credit card __Cash __Drugs __Base consessions __Hostage exchange CHANGE OF MARKINGS __Yes __No INSTRUMENT AND INSTRUCTION HANDBOOK LANGUAGE __English __French __German __Spanish __Sanskrit __Arabic __Latin (Vatican Air Force only) __Polish (VAF again or we're onto something) __Russian (Definitely onto something) __Braille RESCUE SERVICE REQUIRED __Yes __No (Refer to form U-2) INSURANCE REQUIRED (Not available to USAir or Dan-Air employees) __Birdstrike __Blow-out on take-off __Blow up on take-off __Collision with own weapons __Act of God __Collision with falling DC-10 engine or Chinese spy satellite POST-FLIGHT DE-BRIEFING __Yes __No POST-FLIGHT DE-BAGGING __Yes __No POST-FLIGHT EGGS ON PLATE __One __Two __Over easy __Sunny-side up __Bacon __Sauce __Toast WHEN YOU RENT FROM USAF YOU GET MORE THAN AN ALL-WEATHER INTERCEPTOR. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't forget our sister companies SAC Rental and MAC Rental for all your bomber, strategic reconnaissance and transport rental needs. They offer a wide range of handy load carriers including the ever popular B-52, SR-71 and C-130. Latest models just in include the very popular B-2A and C-17A, available at very competitive rates to selected customers. ------------------------------ From: neil@bedford.progress.COM (Neil Galarneau) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 08:09:27 EDT Subject: stealthy satellites? I don't remember if this group has discussed stealthy satellites. I would assume that the most important wavelengths to reduce would be radar ones, but I don't know. Are we doing it? Are 'they' doing it? Does anyone talk about it? My thinking is that if it is hard to detect orbit changes, that would be valuable. Neil neil@progress.com ------------------------------ From: OnLine Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:45:04 Subject: DarkStar down ? Does anyone know anything about the DarkStar accident ? I heard it came down in the desert yesterday...very sad news... On a more positive note..the LASRE should take to the skies on 844 soon.. anyone know when ? D ------------------------------ From: dsm@iti-oh.com (dsm@iti-oh.com) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 10:41:50 EDT Subject: Chicken Gun revisited Welp, for all you skeptics out there who didn't think that real birds are used in jet engines test and that there is no such thing as a chicken gun. Thanks to a neighbor, I recently viewed my first engine test (GE90). The infamous chicken gun not only exists, but there are 3 sizes of them. This is because the types of birds vary...Birds used are range from swallows to sea gulls and for the biggies, Canadian Geese. They come frozen and are thawed for the test. All birds are x-rayed prior to usage and surgery may be performed. (to remove lead shot) So there you have it...not an urban legend, but actually a useful engineering tool. - - Dan ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:10:16 PDT Subject: Re: Chicken Gun revisited Don`t forget the grandaddy of them all, the supersonic velocity chicken gun for windshield testing on the SST. Some of the neatest films I ever saw! Chuck ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 09:15:58 GMT Subject: SR-71 Flights Suspended * DOD SUSPENDS SR-71 SPY PLANE FLIGHTS Flights of the SR-71 Blackbird spy plane have been suspended by the Defense Department, grounding three aircraft operated by personnel from the 9th Reconnaissance Wing at Beale Air Force Base. The order, based on a legal problem that has nothing to do with the aircraft, will halt all training and testing operations. In an April 15 letter to key lawmakers, Deputy Defense Secretary John White said a conflict in the law prevents the Pentagon from spending money appropriated for the aircraft's flight operations. While the appropriations bill has the money, the national intelligence authorization bill contains no language approving the flights. "We sought every avenue to avoid this action but there appears to be no legal basis for us to continue operating the SR-71," White wrote. It is too early to tell how long the suspension of flights will be in effect, but modifications and maintenance of the aircraft will still be performed. The Sacramento Bee reports the SR-71 cost $39,000 an hour to operate and can fly three times the speed of sound at extremely high altitudes. Suspending flights through Sept. 30 would save about $8 million. ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 09:19:08 GMT Subject: Darkstar UAV Crashes * UNPILOTED SPY AIRCRAFT CRASHES EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. -- A remote-controlled battlefield surveillance aircraft called Darkstar was destroyed Monday in a crash during takeoff on a test flight. The aircraft crashed and burned alongside a runway. Investigators were trying to determine the cause, said J. Campbell Martin, a spokesman at NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center. The aircraft first flew at the end of March. Only 15 feet long, about 5 feet tall on its landing gear and with a 69-foot wingspan, Darkstar "looks about like a ruler with a coffee saucer" in the middle, Martin said. The flying wing was being developed for high-altitude reconnaissance. The operational version may fly above 45,000 feet, NASA said. The cost of the test version was unavailable, Martin said. Production models of Darkstar were anticipated to cost $10 million each. The aircraft is being developed for the Defense Department by Lockheed Martin Skunk Works and Boeing Defense and Space Group. ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 09:03:18 GMT Subject: Skunk-Works John, I've lost my subscription message. The list doesn't respond very well to requests, but I'll ask. SKUNKERS, Please resend the subscription or welcome message to me. We'd AP-preciate it! Terry *******Original******* Terry - I have now got a good commercial provider up here in the sticks, and I want to re-subscribe to the skunk-works. What is the format of the message to send and who do I send it to kick off getting back on. I am working on trying to get sent to FHU. Regards, JR ------------------------------ From: dsm@iti-oh.com (dsm@iti-oh.com) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 12:27:57 EDT Subject: Re: Chicken Gun revisited Hi Chuck, :: :: Don`t forget the grandaddy of them all, the supersonic velocity :: chicken gun for windshield testing on the SST. Some of the neatest :: films I ever saw! :: :: Chuck And I have! My father was a Pipefitter and did some of the hook-ups for the engine test cell down at GE Evendale (in Cincy Ohio for you folks in the hinterlands)...I think it was the mid-60's. Was it not the same or a derivitive engine used in the XB-70 six pack? I just remember the jet engine business was booming back then. I think my father was onsite there for about 4 or 5 years starting sometime between '65 and '71). I was just a young piker then, so explicit dates don't come to mind. But, I remember seeing some stills of the cell under construction. I'll bet it made quite a mess. I wonder if this is where the Col. got the idea for "Extra-Crispy"??? :) Cheers, Dan ------------------------------ From: dsm@iti-oh.com (dsm@iti-oh.com) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 96 12:29:25 EDT Subject: Re: Chicken Gun revisited Hi Chuck, :: :: Don`t forget the grandaddy of them all, the supersonic velocity :: chicken gun for windshield testing on the SST. Some of the neatest :: films I ever saw! :: :: Chuck And I have! My father was a Pipefitter and did some of the hook-ups for the engine test cell down at GE Evendale (in Cincy Ohio for you folks in the hinterlands)...I think it was the mid-60's. Was it not the same or a derivitive engine used in the XB-70 six pack? I just remember the jet engine business was booming back then. I think my father was onsite there for about 4 or 5 years starting sometime between '65 and '71). I was just a young piker then, so explicit dates don't come to mind. But, I remember seeing some stills of the cell under construction. I'll bet it made quite a mess. I wonder if this is where the Col. got the idea for "Extra-Crispy"??? :) Cheers, Dan ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: DarkStar down ? It wasn't in the desert, it was just off the main runway, which they closed, of course. The little planes landed on the lakebed and the heavies went down to Palmdale. I saw the pillar of black smoke. It didn't burn for very long. LASRE is currently scheduled to have its first (inert) flight on 23 July, although there's some confusion about this right now. It might have been the wek of 24 June but slipped to July. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, OnLine wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the DarkStar accident ? I heard it came > down in the desert yesterday...very sad news... > > On a more positive note..the LASRE should take to the skies on 844 soon.. > anyone know when ? > > D > ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #651 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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