From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #684 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 24 July 1996 Volume 05 : Number 684 In this issue: How many F-22s Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 How many F-22s -Reply re: How many F-22s -Reply Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 Re: It will works? Re: LPI Radar Aviation Videos Skunk Works Projects - Known and Unknown follow-up Re: some help with terminology Blank Mail Note Re: follow-up Re: some help with terminology Re: follow-up Re: follow-up B2 (was #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump) Re: follow-up Re: Blank Mail Note Re: B2 (was #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump) Re: B2 (was #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 12:01:33  Subject: How many F-22s In answer to the question a couple of days ago about how many F-22s are planned for USAF, the present numbers are 442 operational aircraft and nine developmental models. All are to be single-seaters. Art Hanley Once again, do not make the mistake of believing that whatever I droned on about above has anything to do with I am authorized to drone on about. ------------------------------ From: gj bart Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 12:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 Howdy, Can anyone give a quick layman's explanation of a Fourier transform/analysis? Thanks. gj ------------------------------ From: MICHAEL WEATHERSBY Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:54:51 -0500 Subject: How many F-22s -Reply No "B" models at first huh... makes that first flight really fun... Mike Weather@DHHS.STATE.SC.US >>> 7/19/96, 12:01pm >>> In answer to the question a couple of days ago about how many F-22s are planned for USAF, the present numbers are 442 operational aircraft and nine developmental models. All are to be single-seaters. Art Hanley Once again, do not make the mistake of believing that whatever I droned on about above has anything to do with I am authorized to drone on about. ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 15:12:03  Subject: re: How many F-22s -Reply There are now no plans to buy the B model at all, not just at first. On the one hand, a single seater is more macho. On the other hand, the Navy hasn't bought a two pilot version of its first string fighters since the Cougar became a high performance trainer, so it might not really be necessary. Art Hanley T'woulds be the basest flasehood if thou didst imply that M'Lords and Ladies, who most generously sign my meager checks, had in any way a foreknowledge or didst bless that which has been scriven above. ------------------------------ From: orion@planet.net Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:29:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 Howdy, Can anyone give a quick layman's explanation of a Fourier transform/analysis? Thanks. gj It's been a while, but I'll try. Think of a seismograph, chromatogram, etc. as a trace of some response as a function of time. As an earthquake progresses, a pen traces the movement of the ground. This is the "time" domain, where response as a function of time. When you convert to the Fourier domain, you are looking at frequencies. The Fourier transform of a sine wave is an impulse (spike), the Fourier transform of an peak (chromatographic peak or a single "earthquake" movement" would consist of many frequencies superimposed upon each other (see below). A simplification is to look at the trace as response vs frequency. Low frequencies are visible on the left and high frequencies are on the right. Most of the world is described by these "lower" frequencies. As you add higher frequencies, they begin to cancel each other out and you are left with a flat baseline. /\ | /\ / \ | / \ /\ / \ FFT |/ \ / \ /\--------- / \ = | \ / \/ ____/ \_____ | \/ FT analysis would allow the investigator to convert to the "other" domain and evaluate information not obvious to direct observation. For example, working in the "time" domain, your could evaluate the frequencies of noise in a chromatogram (to look for 60Hz interference) or determine the frequencies of vibration in the movement of an airplane wing. Hope this helps, I haven't used this stuff since my days in graduate school (Chemistry). If you have any specific questions, I'd be glad to answer them. Jim Bostick ------------------------------ From: "Ralph S. Hoefelmeyer" <70436.511@Compuserve.com> Date: 21 Jul 96 22:51:34 EDT Subject: Re: It will works? Su, Aiming a device at a military aircraft is a good way to get killed. I would NOT recommend aiming a lasing device at any American aircraft, particularly an advanced one. I do not know if they have laser sensing systems, but if they do, and they're armed, you're toast. As a former American military officer, I know I would shoot first and answer questions at my court-martial. At least I'd be alive, unlike those poor Marines in Lebanon who actually followed RulesOf Engagement (rules made by politicians) about having unloaded weapons, lest we offend someone. Ralph ------------------------------ From: Christopher Paul Diehl Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: LPI Radar Chuck, Actually there is one little detail which makes the short time (or windowed) FT (STFT) different than the std (F)FT. In my example, if we were to take the discrete time version of the received signal, segment it and then take the FFT, we would be taking what we're calling here the standard approach. We could also say we were performing a STFT with a rectangular window. You can think of the segmentation process as a multiplication of r[n], the discrete time version of the received signal, with w[n] which in this case is equal to 1 in the region of the segment and 0 elsewhere. Now by taking a STFT, we are attempting to get an estimate of the spectrum of r[n] from a piece of r[n]. So we want to introduce the minimum amount of distortion with the use of w[n]. It turns out that a rectangular window is a bad choice. So we would use something like a Gaussian shaped window that tapers down at the ends. The sharp discontinuity of the rectangular window causes the problems. There is another issue here which is that r[n] is not stationary. In other words, the spectrum is changing. So we want to take the STFT over regions of the signal where it is stationary. Do we know where these regions are? No. So what do we do? Proceed anyway. With more knowledge of the environment, we could probably do better than this. Hope this helps... Chris ------------------------------ From: John Burtenshaw Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 15:10:30 -0100 Subject: Aviation Videos Hi All There is a UK company selling educational videos including some that may cover aerospace subjects of interest to this list e.g. Stealth and such like. It may be worth taking a look at their site which is at http://www.asgard.co.uk/mpa/ Regards John =========================================================================== John Burtenshaw Internet Applications Developer The Computer Centre, Bournemouth University - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postal Address: Talbot Campus, Fern Barrow, POOLE, Dorset, BH12 5BB U.K. Internet: jburtens@bournemouth.ac.uk Phone: 01202 595293 Fax: 01202 513293 Mobile: 0850 240931 AX.25: g1hok@gb7bnm.#45.gbr.eu. AMPRnet: g1hok.ampr.org. (44.131.17.82) =========================================================================== ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 08:33:25 GMT Subject: Skunk Works Projects - Known and Unknown Forwarded from the Space Tech list: Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:01:53 -0700 From: "Charles P. Tomes" Subject: Lockheed X-33 John wrote: > Peter Bellini RI-Roger Lepsch wrote: > >The F-117 and SR-71 are well and good, but how many skunk works > >engineers know how to design something that goes to orbit (Mach 25)? > Isn't that where Martin Marietta's expertise comes in? How do we know that they haven't already? The fact that so many Skunk Works projects were successfully undertaken and completed in secrecy just means that we don't know what we don't know. A lot of people have been working there for a long time, with little to show in public. This means either they've done some very important secret work, or they've fleeced the government out of a lot of money. I'd bet on the former. CP Tomes 1982 300SD "Hans" 1981 GL1100 "Bertha" 1984 VF500F "Hamster" Any opinions I espouse are certainly not those of my Internet Service Provider (ie my employer) ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:18:28 Subject: follow-up To those who thought I was likely out of my mind, and to those who expressed such sentiments regarding the possibility of a nuclear project at Groom, I thought I might offer this follow up explanation. In fact, October 27, 1995, the DOE officially announced plans to conduct two "subcritical high-explosive experiments with nuclear materials" at the Nevada Test Site.(DOE Facts-R-95-160) Los Alamos National Labs was to oversee the first code named REBOUND, scheduled for June 18, 1996 and Lawrence Livermore the second code named HOLOG scheduled September 12, 1996. Both were to be conducted at the Lyner facility (Yucca flats) at 980 feet below ground. The team contractors are Bechtel Neveda Corp, Lockheed Martin Nevada Technologies, Inc, and Johnson Controls Nevada, Inc. The stated purpose of the experiments was to monitor the aging of the nuclear stockpile and evaluate performance of aging warhead components, although there was considerable speculation as to the real nature of the experiments with an admission by speculators that no one (outside the project) really knew what the purpose was. In May, shortly after Yeltsin visited China with the blessings of Clinton if Yeltsin encouraged the Chinese to sign the test ban treaty, the Chinese made concessions, but continued with their own nuclear test. (measured 6+ on the R-Scale in Australia) As negotiations were in progress, project REBOUND was temporarily canceled. Since then, several relevant articles have been published in AW&ST and Space News denouncing nuclear (thermionic tests and Tokamak) tests as impractical due to the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and by implication stating air breathing rockets are best. Byron ------------------------------ From: Lambright Christian P Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:26:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: some help with terminology I've obtained a cassette tape of conversation between air route traffic control in the New Mexico area, and commercial airline pilots and am stuck on some of the terminology. Perhaps someone here can help me out. Some of the conversation was also between ARTC personnel and AF base controllers and with NORAD as well. Some terms (this may be phonetic) are: 1)"TIE-BAND" ..the conversation was concerning an aircraft that was in the "tie-band", it may be either a restricted airspace, or some level of elevation. 2)"AEROSET" ..as in "I wonder if any of our "aerosets" got loose." 3)"HIGH-BALLS" ..as in "we don't have any published "high-balls" today. One other question, perhaps a shot in the dark, I'd like to find a specific pilot of "Cactus 564" flight. I think that's America West and know this is a needle in a haystack. Does anyone know of any newsgroups or other lists that might be frequented by pilots or crew members? Any help will be appreciated. You can reply to me via this mailing list, or at chrisl@www.tcet.unt.edu - -Chris -=>*<=-=->*<=-=>*<=-=>*< chrisl@jove.acs.unt.edu >*<=-=>*<=-=>*<=-=>*<=- chrisl@www.tcet.unt.edu _________________________ -=-=> *<>* <=-=- ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 03:52:02 PDT Subject: Blank Mail Note Byron writes: > nuclear (thermionic tests and >Tokamak) tests as impractical due to the Comprehensive Nuclear Test >Ban Treaty and by implication stating air breathing rockets are best. huh?????? BTW, what is an air-breathing rocket? Chuck 1979 CB750K "Black Beauty" ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 14:57:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: follow-up Although it hasn't had much public attention, several U.S. nuclear evaluations (not necessarily detonations) have involved Soviet warheads and materials. The purpose of this is to validate U.S. models of Soviet warhead performance, calibrate sensors, etc. Some of the tests involved you've described may include these. Dr Bob ------------------------------ From: Earl Needham Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 11:50:32 -0700 Subject: Re: some help with terminology > From: Lambright Christian P , on 7/24/96 11:41 AM: > > 1)"TIE-BAND" > ..the conversation was concerning an aircraft that was in the "tie-band", > it may be either a restricted airspace, or some level of elevation. This may be (probably is) a reference to the "Taiban" exit from the Melrose target range. Melrose (the town) is about 20 miles west of Cannon AFB. As for the rest, I haven't figured them out yet. Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM (DM84) Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 Have you really jumped ROUND PARACHUTES? (Overheard at the Clovis Parachute Center) ------------------------------ From: fmarkus@nyc.pipeline.com (Frank Markus) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 23:13:16 GMT Subject: Re: follow-up On Jul 24, 1996 14:57:04, 'drbob@creighton.edu' wrote: >Although it hasn't had much public attention, several U.S. nuclear >evaluations (not necessarily detonations) have involved Soviet warheads >and materials. The purpose of this is to validate U.S. models of Soviet >warhead performance, calibrate sensors, etc. Some of the tests involved >you've described may include these. > >Dr Bob > Does this mean that at least one (ex-)Soviet nuclear warhead has been "removed" from their inventory? Unless this was an unreported post-Soviet government-to-government (which government?) transfer or a test of the material that was seized in Germany some years ago, this is big news. Big bad news. I doubt that the CIA is the only -- or the highest -- bidder in any post-Soviet nuclear auction. I fear to think who the other successful bidders might be! ------------------------------ From: agentx@closer.brisnet.org.au (Matthew Etherington) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:05:06 +1000 Subject: Re: follow-up >Does this mean that at least one (ex-)Soviet nuclear warhead has been >"removed" from their inventory? Unless this was an unreported post-Soviet >government-to-government (which government?) transfer or a test of the >material that was seized in Germany some years ago, this is big news. Big >bad news. I doubt that the CIA is the only -- or the highest -- bidder in >any post-Soviet nuclear auction. I fear to think who the other successful >bidders might be! > Frightening thought, isn't it? I heard a similar report along the lines that Soviet ex-military top brass have been selling weapons-grade plutonium to the highest bidder ... and the starting price is pretty low. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Some men see things the way they are, and say 'Why?' I dream things that never were, and say 'Why not?'" -- Robert F. Kennedy - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Etherington =8^) [ agentx@closer.brisnet.org.au ] =8^) -- PESSIMIST IS WHAT AN IDEALIST CALLS A REALIST -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 18:40:52 GMT Subject: B2 (was #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump) ______________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Author: forteana@lists.primenet.com at smtp-fhu Date: 24/07/96 18:13 >But as the jumbo was towed from the hangar, someone pushed the wrong >button, the undercarriage retracted and the plane fell backwards with a >thump that could be heard half a mile away. Almost as emarrassing as, but not nearly as sinister as, the Stealth B2, which just collapsed as it was wheeled out in front of the same people who were fairly interested in what they were getting for $2 billion. The aviation world's version of trainspotters who were peeking took down the model number visible on the under-carriage, as they were suspicious of the world's most advanced and most expensive military aviation technology being so badly designed that it couldn't FERGING ROLL ALONG THE RUNWAY. The whole of the landing gear was second-hand, old, cheap landing gear from an airplane completely unconnected with the Stealth project. Odd, at the least. Who knows what the insides of that B2 were comprised of. But of course, it couldn't be that the B2 was a cover story for something altogether more secret, guzzling all those billions each year, could it? That would mean either the Skunk Works lying to the Pentagon, or the Pentagon lying to (!) the public!! It doesn't bear thinking about, surely? - --- Graeme@Sandra's ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:45:49 Subject: Re: follow-up >Although it hasn't had much public attention, several U.S. nuclear >evaluations (not necessarily detonations) have involved Soviet warheads >and materials. The purpose of this is to validate U.S. models of Soviet >warhead performance, calibrate sensors, etc. Some of the tests involved >you've described may include these. > >Dr Bob > > admittedly so, except Dr. Raffi Papazian of the Los Alamos lab said one of the tests involve a "disc" of plutonium which gives the impression the shape is being tested. (denied by JD Ross, the Elnergy Dept's Nevada Op Office) Las Vegas Review Journal, December 11, 1996 Of course, that doesnt change the fact you may be right if the Soviets used disc shaped plutonium cores. Byron ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 20:06:49 Subject: Re: Blank Mail Note >Byron writes: >> nuclear (thermionic tests and >>Tokamak) tests as impractical due to the Comprehensive Nuclear Test >>Ban Treaty and by implication stating air breathing rockets are best. > >huh?????? >BTW, what is an air-breathing rocket? > >Chuck >1979 CB750K "Black Beauty" > Tokamak-ion plasma engine, thermionic heat transfer. I know of two ongoing projects, studies for their possible use as a means of space propulsion. The restrictions imposed by the CNTBT mean researchers cant use the real stuff (nuclear) for their tests. Ok Chuck, only an engineer would make me go through this: air-breathing rocket "engine." As I was falling off to sleep last night I recalled the ommission and knew for sure someone would challange me. Thanks for the making me clear that up. But, did you get the main idea? I might add, its too bad the wacko's in world force us to demand such restrictions. Who knows what progress is delayed or lost. Byron ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: B2 (was #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump) On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Terry Colvin wrote: > whole of the landing gear was second-hand, old, cheap landing gear from an > airplane completely unconnected with the Stealth project. From Northrop B-2 Bomber by Doug Richardson: "On OV-1 (first B-2 I believe), the undercarriage was made from a modified Boeing 757/767 landing gear componets, but later aircraft will have a custom-designed assembly." Different aircraft but the landing gear has the same function. The specification needed for the landing gear maybe are very similar. So, why design something new if there is something doing the same job? As Chinese's proverb said: "If it is working, use it". > But of course, it couldn't be that the B2 was a cover story for something > altogether more secret, guzzling all those billions each year, could it? > That would mean either the Skunk Works lying to the Pentagon, or the > Pentagon lying to (!) the public!! B-2 is not designed by Skunk Works anyway, it was design by Northrop (now Northrop-Grumman). But Skunk Works' design to compete the Stealth Bomber came out very similar to the B-2 flying wing even both company are working separately. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu "Just fly it Milo, find out if she is a lady or a witch". Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: B2 (was #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump) On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Terry Colvin wrote: > But of course, it couldn't be that the B2 was a cover story for something > altogether more secret, guzzling all those billions each year, could it? > That would mean either the Skunk Works lying to the Pentagon, or the > Pentagon lying to (!) the public!! I don't know about the Skunk Works of today, but in the late fifties and early sixties, the so president of Skunk Works (Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson) said: "The YF-12A developed into the SR-71. And in that case, again, the cost performance was excellent as we gave back to the goverment well over 19 million dollars on the contract. And we consider it to be a success." I never hear of others aero company give contract money back to the goverment. Have you? May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu "Just fly it Milo, find out if she is a lady or a witch". Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #684 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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