From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #686 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 30 July 1996 Volume 05 : Number 686 In this issue: re: #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump Re: Airbreathing Rockets Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement Re: Florida Keys RE: Florida Keys AW&ST Space Digest Site Re[2]: #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump What are Aerostats Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement Re: Mr. Scramjet Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement Re: Airbreathing Rockets Re: Airbreathing Rockets Re: your .sig file in error? Re: Airbreathing Rockets Out of Office AutoReply: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 CIA [none] Tacit Blue See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Earl Needham Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:31:43 -0700 Subject: re: #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump > Seen in Electronic Telegraph on 24/7/96 > By Sean O'Neill > But as the jumbo was towed from the hangar, someone pushed the wrong > button, the undercarriage retracted and the plane fell backwards with a > thump that could be heard half a mile away. Interesting, even humorous story. Why didn't the WOW (weight-on-wheels) switches prevent this? Hmm... ;-) Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM (DM84) Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 Have you really jumped ROUND PARACHUTES? (Overheard at the Clovis Parachute Center) ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Airbreathing Rockets On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 larry@ichips.intel.com wrote: > Fred Billig (Mr. Scramjet) published in a paper in the book entitled: ^^^^^^^^^^^^ From Air & Space (Dec. 1989): "...So Billig sat down with a set of lettered tiles, arranged and rearranged them to try out several anagrams, and came up with SCRAM, for supersonic combustion ram missile. The scramjet was born. There is still a dispute over who built the first scramjet. In 1959 Billig ignited a small model scramjet in a wind tunnel at Mach 5, using a chemical that spontaneously burns on contact with air. Shortly thereafter, Ferri demostrated the ignition of hydrogen in the GASL wind tunnel at Mach 6. Both groups were invigorrated by their achievements." Just defending the name of Mr. Antonio Ferri whom is considered the father of hypersonic propulsion in United State. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu "During the war (Desert Storm), I ate, I slept, and I flew. You couldn't go to town or off to the mountains. Not allow to do that. We had a joke back then: 'The only time they let you off base is to go bomb Baghdad.'" Capt. Matt Byrd (F-117 pilot) ------------------------------ From: "Phil Wellings" Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:21:18 +0000 Subject: Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement Just my 2 pence (British that is)... > It is customary in aircraft design and flight dynamics to use English units. > Saying KPH makes you look like a rookie. (Why??? I have no idea. Anybody > know?) As far as I know, this is because all aircaft instruments (in the West at least) are still calibrated in knots and feet for indicated airspeed and altitude respectively. Hence their use tends to creep over into more general discussion. I seem to recall that when the Luftwaffe inherited some Mig-29s from the now defunct East German Air Force they had metric cockpits, and that they had some fun adjusting. Anyone got any more details ? Take care now Phil - ------------------------------------------------------------------ My other .sig is funny. Phil Wellings, Systems Engineering, Martin-Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:34:38 +0200 Subject: Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement I hope very much that SAAB's engineers working with Gripen uses metric units and not anglo-saxian ones. I don't know about the units used in the Viggen cockpit. But most Swedes can't even think in feet. ------------------------------ From: "Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund" Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:30:12 +0200 Subject: Re: Florida Keys >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff H Clark writes: Jeff> Most likely it was a missile/rocket tracking ship; inside the spheres are big antenna dishes for receiving telemetry and tracking rockets. It is Jeff> probably stationed at Port Canaveral where I've seen one or two others like Jeff> it. Or, there is some kind of ACM range around the keys, and the ship could Jeff> be involved in tracking airplanes for mock war games. In general, big domes Jeff> usually mean a big dish is inside, wherever you see it. The NAVY runs aggressor games out of Key West Naval Air Station. Tomcats and plastic bugs (F-18) pilots fly against souped up F-16's (more power in engine, no radar or canon.) ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:16:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: Florida Keys You are indeed correct about the USNS _Observation Island_ serving as a missile tracking ship. FYI, this ship has the operational name of COBRA JUDY. The RC-135S airborne TELINT, MASINT, and IMINT collector is the COBRA BALL (the now demodified RC-135X MASINT collector was the COBRA EYE). Ground-based sites include the COBRA DANE radar at Shemya and the as-yet undisclosed location for the COBRA SHOE. All of this may be of some small interest to skunkers and stealth afficiandos as all of these platforms work to track decoy and/or stealth re-entry vehicles, among others, to verify foreign compliance with international arms agreements. The COBRA JUDY's radar might not track an RV during re-entry, but the COBA BALL's optical and spectrographic sensors would compensate for this. Dr Bob ------------------------------ From: simon_stafford@VNET.IBM.COM Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 01:57:58 EST Subject: AW&ST Space Digest Site Don't know if this has been posted previously but here goes anyway ! http://www.islandone.org:80/SpencerAvLeakReports It contains a digest of _AW&ST_ space reports by Henry Spencer, quite comprehensive! S!mon. "Death is only an horizon and an horizon is nothing more than the limit of our sight." -- Sir Fitzroy Maclean ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 09:18:21 GMT Subject: Re[2]: #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump Forwarded from Bill Riddle: _________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Author: Bill Riddle at FHU2 Date: 26/07/96 0858 I would have to look for a maintenance problem also ... It seems to me that all RG aircraft that I flew had limit switches on the landing gear. The purpose of which was to prevent the gear from retracting while on the ground. Surely the SR71 and B2 (and 747) ... Bill Riddle ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: #1m dent as jumbo lands with a bump Author: Terry Colvin at FHU2 Date: 7/25/96 5:06 PM FYI ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Author: Brett Davidson at smtp-fhu Date: 25/07/96 1526 On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Terry Colvin wrote: > Related 747 story which spawned the B2 comment. Source and accuracy of the > B2 comment are unknown. Terry ........snip.... > But as the jumbo was towed from the hangar, someone pushed the wrong > button, the undercarriage retracted and the plane fell backwards with a > thump that could be heard half a mile away. James Goodall's book, "SR-71 Blackbird" has a photo on page 51 of something similar happening. I quote the caption: "No one is perfect are they? This is what happens when you are not paying complete attention to the checklists. This SR-71 reveals what happens when you turn on the aircraft's hydraulic system, forget to install the landing gear locking pins on all wheels, then cycle the gear handle to the up position. The end result is several million dollars in damage to the aircraft and a few lost stripes to the ground crewman." Ouch. - --Brett ------------------------------ From: Patrick Weber Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 14:51:36 +0200 Subject: What are Aerostats In some articles posted here i saw people talk about aerostats. But i dont know what that is .Please help me. - -- ______________________________________ / HAVE A NICE DAY @:-) \ / /"""\ /\ """/"""/"""\ "|" /"""| / / / / / \ / / / | / | / / /""""" /""""\ / /"""\" | / |/\ / / / \/ / \ _|_\____ | \ / AND REMEMBER: LOVE, PEACE AND UNITY \ \____________________________________________/ ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, Phil Wellings wrote: > > I seem to recall that when the Luftwaffe inherited some Mig-29s from > the now defunct East German Air Force they had metric cockpits, and > that they had some fun adjusting. Anyone got any more details ? Remind me a interview on the TV of the US NAVY Top Gun, they flew the Mig-29 and they said that the airplane flight "almost the same" as Western fighter but the difference is that Mig-29 use metric units. So, they have to get use to it. Mig-29 out-maneuble western fighter, but they have tactics against the Mig-29, one of their favorit is the following: If the Mig-29 is on your six o'clock, you dive increasing your speed, and when the Mig-29 start diving, you pull up. So, the Mig-29 does not have enought pitch to catch you. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu "During the war (Desert Storm), I ate, I slept, and I flew. You couldn't go to town or off to the mountains. Not allow to do that. We had a joke back then: 'The only time they let you off base is to go bomb Baghdad.'" Capt. Matt Byrd (F-117 pilot) ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:35:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Mr. Scramjet On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 larry@ichips.intel.com wrote: >> Fred Billig (Mr. Scramjet) published in a paper in the book entitled: ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Su Wei-Jen responds: > From Air & Space (Dec. 1989): >... > There is still a dispute over who built the first scramjet. ... >... > Just defending the name of Mr. Antonio Ferri whom is considered >the father of hypersonic propulsion in United State. > Well, ... I wasn't implying who was first, only that Dr. Billig is still alive and is the current world 'expert'. You are quite correct about Tony Ferri! Dr. Ferri is another of my heroes! As Dr. Billig himself has said (to me) it doesn't really matter who was 'first'. He told me that back in the 50's, JH-APL funded some of Dr. Ferri's research, and he can recall trips that he and Bill Avery (the JH-APL Propulsion Lab Director) made up to NY to collaborate with Tony Ferri. So they actually have worked together. It seems to me that some of the controversy might be caused by the fact that JH-APL (Avery, Billig, ...) worked a lot of Navy programs (although Dr. Billig showed me a 1963 proposal they made to USAF to use the XB-70 as a mother ship for scramjet research), and GASL (Tony Ferri's company) worked a lot of USAF programs. They both also worked with NASA which was involved in scramjet stuff too. Dr. Ferri unfortunately passed away in the early 70's. My favorite Tony Ferri studies were the late 50's and up to mid 60's Republic Aircraft Company (RAC) studies. The first real Mach 25 complete vehicle scramjet studies done by a airframe company. I love the design of those aircraft! I'm working on modelling them! The early RAC studies used 4 H2 burning J-58's (the SR-71 bleed-bypass turbojet) as flow inducers!! There were also versions that used turbojet powered drones that boosted the scramjet vehicle up to inlet start speed and then detached and flew back to base. Interesting stuff! Most people don't know that Von Karman also worked on those RAC proposals. So it was quite a team! Von Karman, Ferri, and RAC! Earlier in the 50's, Tony was also involved in the RAC XF-103 turboramjet interceptor studies. If RAC had used Pratt and Whitney as an engine company instead of Wright, the YF-12A might not have been the first American Mach 3 interceptor to fly. In fact, what became the J-58 may have been an on the shelf and developed engine when CIA started the U-2 follow-on program later in the 50's. Most people don't know that Tony Ferri was also involved in some of the secret Convair ramjet stuff! For example, Ferri was involved on the SUPER HUSTLER studies that Convair did for SAC, to study a Mach 4+ strategic bomber. Tony was however not involved in the later CIA Mach 4+ FISH study that was the first proposal Convair made in competition with Lockheed's ARCHANGEL (U-2 follow on) proposals. But some of the FISH stuff was built on the SUPER HUSTLER study done earlier. So bringing up Ferri's name is quite appropriate! ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 11:31:41  Subject: Re: Mach and other units of speed measurement Of course, the downside to that manuever is that the Mig-29 has helmet sighte and the R-73. If he can get in dogfight missile range he just has to look at you and then the R-73 will easily be able to overcome any manuever a manned aircraft can try (remember, that missile is so agile that they can fire it to the rear from three aircraft!) Art Hanley Those of you who search for any opinion here that reflects my employers' views do so in vain. ------------------------------ From: OnLine Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 21:20:12 Subject: Re: Airbreathing Rockets > > >Larry wrote: >>> That is, an airbreathing duct, that has a rocket ejector (or rocket >>>exhaust) > somewhere in the direct flow path of the air. >>> >>> There are many, many, many different configurations. ... > >Brett responds: >>There are also Liquid Air Cycle Engines. > >Yes. Another good example of one of the many ways in which a rocket can be >inserted in the flow path, and an excellent example of the term >'airbreathing rocket' versus 'ducted rocket'. > >> A LACE was the >>basis for HOTOL and its successor, Skylon, and also a Japanese spaceplane >>proposal. > >Indeed! Neither engine liquified air. The air is "deep pre-cooled" to very low temperatures...that's the really clever part. The other aspects of the engine design are similar to the LACE conceopt. The big problem it seems with a LACE is its relatively low improvement in ISP compared to a Liquid Oxygen/Hydrogen rocket and of course the ramjet. I spoke with Alan Bond and Richard Varvill (Skylon's technical director) today to see if I can get some of the details answered in engineering terms. I'm not an engineer...I write about technology, so I don't feel qualified to answer anything more than general questions on Skylon, which I'm happy to do when I have time. One point I should like to stress is that Reaction Engines (Skylon) have done a great deal of work on the SSTO space plane...it's not just a general concept. It's taken years to refine the design to its mature state. > >> I don't know if there have been any benchtop LACE >>demonstrations, > >I can imagine that RR did some experiments with HOTOL's RB545, and I'm >also sure the Japanese did some as well with their concepts. I need to >consult my histories for details. Richard was involved with the RB545 and yes they did run tests. The Japanese have an engine callled ATREX on which they've also run tests >So it sounds like we have some pretty far along LACE technology here >in the States as well (if you talk to the right person). > >> but from what I gather, Skylon has been pretty thoroughly >>developed as a detailed design concept. > >I'm sure it has. > >>On a tangent, anyone want to discuss or elaborate on Skylon? > >I know of one reference for information on HOTOL's RB545, namely: > "HOTOL's Secret Engine's Revealed" > May 1993, Spaceflight > but I need a copy of that paper. Anybody have one they could send me > a photocopy of? Yes I have a copy in my files, but Richard's going to send me another. Maybe you could e-mail me with how to get it to you. > >I'd like some details on SKYLON's SABRE engines. Anybody have a reference, >or even better, some copies? Hopefully Richard will give us some input on this, but I do have some stuff. > >It certainly doesn't seem that a lot of people know about these >alternative paths! > >> all good ideas that were >>allowed to wither (I was about to say "shafted"). > >Yes. It certainly seems like someone could maybe break things wide open >given a little capital, and access to the experts, doesn't it! Couldn't agree more. I'll expand on Slylon if it's not off topic and there's is enough interest. I find it a fascinating subject. Best D ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:32:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Airbreathing Rockets Larry wrote: >>>> That is, an airbreathing duct, that has a rocket ejector (or rocket >>>>exhaust) > somewhere in the direct flow path of the air. >>>> >>>> There are many, many, many different configurations. ... Brett responds: >>>There are also Liquid Air Cycle Engines. >>> >>> A LACE was the >>>basis for HOTOL and its successor, Skylon, and also a Japanese spaceplane >>>proposal. >>Indeed! D (David?) writes: >Neither engine liquified air. The air is "deep pre-cooled" to very low >temperatures...that's the really clever part. The other aspects of the >engine design are similar to the LACE conceopt. Yes. Billig and others have also written of cryo-cooled inlet cycles. In the AIAA reference I quoted, two different variations on that approach are described. I'd like to see the HOTOL and SKYLON information to look at the differences. Thanks! Larry ------------------------------ From: agentx@closer.brisnet.org.au (Matthew Etherington) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:59:47 +1000 Subject: Re: your .sig file in error? >AgentX, > >regarding this tag from your .sig: > > "Some men see things the way they are, and say 'Why?' > I dream things that never were, and say 'Why not?'" > -- Robert F. Kennedy > >I was under the impression that it was John F. Kennedy who used this quote, which was originally from George Bernard Shaw. > >Just an fyi... > >Steve Baughman >sbaughmn@apple.com > That's exactly what I thought, Steve ... I always figured it to be good 'ol JFK ... so imagine my surprise when I looked at the quote in the front of the Star Trek : The Next Generation Technical Manual, and saw that it was indeed attributed to Robert F Kennedy :) I wasn't aware that it was originally by GBS. Thanx for that :) - -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Some men see things the way they are, and say 'Why?' I dream things that never were, and say 'Why not?'" -- Robert F. Kennedy (by George Bernard Shaw) - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Etherington =8^) [ agentx@closer.brisnet.org.au ] =8^) -- PESSIMIST IS WHAT AN IDEALIST CALLS A REALIST -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: chosa@chosa.win.net (Byron Weber) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 14:37:17 Subject: Re: Airbreathing Rockets Larry writes: >My feelings exactly! At first we're talking about nuclear stockpile issues >and tests to verify theories about how well nuclear weapons age, and then >suddenly airbreathing rockets are brought into the picture as being >related! Say what? Again, no one really understands the nature of the planned tests at the Nellis test facility. Nuke stockpile issues were not among my first comments. That was Dr. Bob's comment. >Space propulsion does not imply atmospheric or even exoatmospheric (on the >way to orbit) propulsion. I will spell it out for you Larry, Timberwind-July 1991 Browski at NASA's Nuclear Populsion Systems Office said, "If you want to initiate major lunar activity where significant amounts of cargo and people are sent to the moon routinely, Nuclear Thermal Rockets can do it more efficiently and cost effectively than chemical rockets." In late 1990 the concept had been delivered outlining the conversion of launch vehicles (Atlas & Titan) to Timberwind test beds using eight NRV's, each with 250k pounds of thrust. (obviously exoatmosperic) So, there seems to be a relationship between the demise of Timberwind and the emphasis on engines such as Rockwell's J-2S. Might it be the a result of CTBT and the limitations imposed? And, are there ongoing secret tests as a follow on to Timberwind, possibly REBOUND and HOLOG? In 1991 the clear choice was nuclear. Despite the demise of Timberwind, there are ongoing nuclear propulsion projects for the stated purpose of planetary travel. Could those projects (unstated objectives) include Timberwind objectives? More questions than answers, unfortunately. Great stuff on rockets Larry. Thanks Byron ------------------------------ From: Jerry Cummings <"us2rmc::cummingsj@mail.dec.com"@xanadu.ENET.dec.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 09:28:30 EDT Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 I'm out of the office until July 29. % ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ====== % Received: from mkoexc2.mko.dec.com by us2rmc.zko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA29400; Mon, 29 Jul 96 09:22:50 -040 % Received: by mkoexc2.mko.dec.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.838.14) id <01BB7D30.29920C00@mkoexc2.mko.dec.com>; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:27:29 -040 % Message-Id: % From: Jerry Cummings % To: 'MAIL-11 Daemon' % Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: Skunk Works Digest V5 #683 % Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:27:26 -0400 % X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.838.14 % Encoding: 1 TEXT ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CIA Here is a site with information about CIA. There is a couple of information relative with Skunk Works. http://www.awpi.com/IntelWeb/US/CIA/faq.html May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "During the war (Desert Storm), I ate, I slept, and I flew. You couldn't go to town or off to the mountains. Not allow to do that. We had a joke back then: 'The only time they let you off base is to go bomb Baghdad.'" Capt. Matt Byrd (F-117 pilot) ------------------------------ From: Adam Maas Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 23:10:34 -0400 Subject: [none] Aeroset is probably an Aerostat tethered radar balloon used for long-range radar coverage. Adam Maas ------------------------------ From: jetguy1@ix.netcom.com (BRENT CLARK ) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:54:05 -0700 Subject: Tacit Blue Demonstrator "Shamu", is possibly being sent to Wright Patterson AFB Ohio to be placed on display in the AFB museum. Does anyone know if this is true? Also are there any other "Black Airplane" newsgroups or websites? Thanks for your help! ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #686 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "prm@mail.orst.edu A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).