From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #693 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Sunday, 11 August 1996 Volume 05 : Number 693 In this issue: Re: U-2 down Statement from Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator (fwd) U-2 crashed in a ball of flame re: Designations (Various Responses) Burbank contamination U-2 crash re: Designations (Various Responses) U2 Down British Designations Re: Saucer Crashes, Skeptic Bulls***. Unusual designations jet inventor Frank Whittle Dies Re: Unusual designations See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Lapcewich Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:10:12 +0930 Subject: Re: U-2 down At 06:35 PM 8/7/96 -0700, you wrote: >I just heard on NPR that a U-2 went down in California today - does >anyone have any details??? > The following is an article from Reuters Internet news service. Wednesday August 7 6:49 PM EDT U-2 Spy Plane Crashes in California SAN FRANCISCO (Reuter) - A U-2 spy plane crashed in northern California Wednesday, a U.S. Air Force spokeswoman said. Teresa Kaye, a spokeswoman for Beale Air Force base near Sacramento, confirmed that a U-2 plane based there had crashed near Oroville, about 60 miles north of Sacramento. She did not know whether one or two people were on board or their condition. Radio reports said the U-2 reconnaissance plane crashed into a parking lot in downtown Oroville. A witness told CBS radio news that she saw the plane circling down with its wing on fire before it hit the ground and exploded. The witness also said she saw a parachute come down, but the person in it was not moving. Kaye said the crashed plane was assigned to the 9th Reconnaissance Wing at Beale. She said 32 planes are based at Beale Air Force Base. end artcle ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 01:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Statement from Daniel S. Goldin, NASA Administrator (fwd) Not Skunky but look like NASA said: "We are not alone" ;) May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Laurie Boeder Headquarters, Washington, DC August 6, 1996 (Phone: 202/358-1898) RELEASE: 96-159 STATEMENT FROM DANIEL S. GOLDIN, NASA ADMINISTRATOR "NASA has made a startling discovery that points to the possibility that a primitive form of microscopic life may have existed on Mars more than three billion years ago. The research is based on a sophisticated examination of an ancient Martian meteorite that landed on Earth some 13,000 years ago. The evidence is exciting, even compelling, but not conclusive. It is a discovery that demands further scientific investigation. NASA is ready to assist the process of rigorous scientific investigation and lively scientific debate that will follow this discovery. I want everyone to understand that we are not talking about 'little green men.' These are extremely small, single- cell structures that somewhat resemble bacteria on Earth. There is no evidence or suggestion that any higher life form ever existed on Mars. The NASA scientists and researchers who made this discovery will be available at a news conference tomorrow to discuss their findings. They will outline the step-by-step "detective story" that explains how the meteorite arrived here from Mars, and how they set about looking for evidence of long-ago life in this ancient rock. They will also release some fascinating images documenting their research. -end- ------------------------------ From: BMendoza@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 01:39:47 -0400 Subject: U-2 crashed in a ball of flame By Michael Otten OROVILLE, Calif (Reuter) - A U-2 military spy plane that was being tested after undergoing maintenance crashed in a ball of flame in a newspaper building's parking lot Wednesday, killing the pilot and one person on the ground. The reconnaissance plane, a primary spy tool in the Cold War era, went down in the parking lot of the Oroville Mercury Register building in Oroville, 60 miles north of Sacramento, and crashed into the corner of the building, deputy city clerk Ruth Dabner said. Witnesses said they heard an explosion and the plane burst into flames on impact. The blaze seared the side of the building and burned at least one car. Reporters, kept away from the cordoned-off crash site, could see the plane's tail and other small pieces of wreckage. The pilot, Capt. Randy Roby, bailed out and his parachute landed about two blocks away from the crashed plane, but he died of unknown causes, the Air Force said. He was the only person on board. One person on the ground was killed and two other people were injured, the Air Force said. The plane came down in a residential area near a high school. ``I think we're extremely fortunate there weren't more casualties,'' said Bob Wentz, chief executive of Oroville Hospital, where two people were treated for minor injuries. The plane crashed about 15 minutes after taking off from nearby Beale Air Force Base, base spokeswoman Tech. Sgt. Teresa Kaye said. Just before the crash the pilot reported ``an inflight emergency,'' Kaye said, adding she did not know the nature of the emergency. She said the aircraft had just come out of routine maintenance and the pilot was ``performing a functional flight check'' on the aircraft. The cause of the crash was unknown and would be investigated by a board of officers, the Air Force said. Roby, of Fresno, California, was an experienced pilot. He was an instructor pilot and a flight examination instructor, Kaye said. A married man, he had been in the military for nine years and had several decorations including an Aerial Achievement Medal, Air Medal and Air Force Commendation Medal. Some witnesses said the plane's wing was on fire before the aircraft spiraled to the ground. Kaye said the crashed plane was assigned to the 9th Reconnaissance Wing and was one of 32 planes based at Beale. The U-2, once a super secret aircraft and a mainstay of spy missions in the Cold War era before sophisticated satellites, became famous worldwide when one was shot down in 1960 during a spy mission over the Soviet Union. Central Intelligence Agency pilot Francis Gary Powers was captured near the wreckage and was tried in a Soviet court as a spy. He was released in 1962 in an exchange for Soviet spy Col. Rudolf Abel. 23:49 08-07-96 ------------------------------ From: "Phil Wellings" Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:22:01 +0000 Subject: re: Designations (Various Responses) > From: ahanley@usace.mil > Wasn't the Tornado F.1 the one without the radar (along with other > deficiencies), the F.2 the one with the radar that didn't work, and the F.3 the > one with the radar that works but has a tough time catching things? Nope. GR1 = original mud mover, now available in GR1A, GR1B, and EKU (sp ?) variants GR1A = infra red reconaissance fit GR1B = Sea Eagle capable for maritime work EKU (also known as ECR) is a German version for defence suppression with HARM F2 = original attempt to make an interceptor (NB not a fighter) out of the airframe. Infamous for the Blue Circle radar fitted (ie concrete ballast). F3 = current version. Has working radar (still not up to spec yet I think), better engines etc. Not allowed anywhere near the front line during the Gulf according to vicious rumour, as a missile platform optimised for long range patrol over the North Atlantic was felt to be a little vulnerable in a close range furball with a Mig 29. GR4 = planned update to GR1. So now you know. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ My other .sig is funny. Phil Wellings, Systems Engineering, Martin-Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: erebenti@MIT.EDU (Eric Rebentisch) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 96 10:11:14 EDT Subject: Burbank contamination Groundwater and soil contamination at Lockheed's Burbank facilities probably shouldn't be attributed primarily to ADP operations. Lockheed started drilling groundwater sampling wells around the airport facilities in the mid-1980s when I was there, after decades of manufacturing operations. While I don't know the exact nature of the contaminants, most likely they are the typical solvents, lubricants, and fuels associated with heavy manufacturing and aircraft operation. Many heavy industry sites in this country have the same problem. It's too bad, because all that Burbank real estate that potentially could be very valuable is now only a big financial and legal liability to Lockheed. I also suspect that the lawsuit mentioned in the article is unrelated to the one filed by ADP workers a few years back regarding OSHA violations related to exposure to hazardous materials during F-117 production. Eric ------------------------------ From: worldnet@gnn.com (JOHN F. REGUS) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:48:12 Subject: U-2 crash >What is the latest on the U-2 crash in CA yesterday? Anyone know the >cause? >John F. Regus >Systems Engineer >INTERNET: WORLDNET@GNN.COM >INTERNET: JREGUS@AOL.COM > > John F. Regus Systems Engineer INTERNET: WORLDNET@GNN.COM INTERNET: JREGUS@AOL.COM ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Thu, 8 Aug 96 13:06:18  Subject: re: Designations (Various Responses) Phil, Are you Sure there wasn't a Tornado F.1? I thought that was the version that never was meant to be operational, had the earlier engines, short stack afterburners and special fire control system suitable for ramming (i.e. concrete). Art Hanley Once again, do not make the mistake of believing that whatever I droned on about above has anything to do with I am authorized to drone on about. ------------------------------ From: clew@netcom.netcom.com (Hypoxic Wombat) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:57:49 -0700 Subject: U2 Down U-2 Plane Crashes in Oroville; Pilot, Civilian on Ground Die From Associated Press OROVILLE, Calif.--A U-2 spy plane crashed into a parking lot next to a newspaper building Wednesday, killing the pilot and at least one person on the ground. Two other people on the ground were slightly injured. Air Force Col. Wayne Newman identified the pilot as Capt. Randy Roby, an instructor from Fresno assigned to Beale Air Force Base. Air Force officials said a civilian on the ground also was killed. The plane crashed in a parking lot outside the offices of the Oroville Mercury Register. Robert Anglen, a reporter at the newspaper, said a customer leaving the building walked out at the moment the airplane plunged to earth and was killed in the crash. The newspaper identified the civilian as Jerri Vering of Oroville. Newman said the aircraft was on a routine mission, but he declined to discuss the flight. Robert Frutos, a technician who was working on a radio tower at the time of the crash, said he saw the plane burst into flames while still in flight. "The wing just blew off and the plane spiraled right down," Frutos said. "It happened real quick." from: http://www.latimes.com - -- The avalanche has already started. It's too late for the pebbles to vote. <*> clew@netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2925 ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 04:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: British Designations Art, The short answer is "There was no Tornado F.1, because there is already the Tornado GR.1", while the long answer is -- longer... :) The British military has a very different designation system, compared to the US system. Each service aircraft receives an official name as designation (while prototypes often don't). Those names are often applied with some consistency, like Hawker aircraft often received names starting with 'H', or bombers were often named after cities, and so on. Each major version receives a sequential 'Mark' (or Mk) number, starting always at 1 for the first version. Together with the number, a mission symbol is applied, which more or less accurately describes the purpose of this particular version. The mission symbols seem to be not very strictly regulated, though. They include (currently used ones): AEW - Airborne Early Warning AH - Army Helicopter AL - Army Liaison AS - Anti-Submarine B - Bomber B(I) - Bomber (Interdiction) B(K) - Bomber (Tanker) B(PR) - Bomber (Photo Reconnaissance) C - Transport or Cargo CC - VIP/Passenger Transport C(PR) - Transport (Photo Reconnaissance) D - Drone (unmanned aircraft) E - Electronic special mission or flight checking F - Fighter F/A - Fighter, Attack FG - Fighter, Ground attack FGA - Fighter, Ground Attack FGR - Fighter, Ground attack, Reconnaissance FR - Fighter, Reconnaissance FRS - Fighter, Reconnaissance, Strike (nuclear attack, NATO nomenclature) GA - Ground Attack GR - Ground attack, Reconnaissance HAR - Helicopter, Air-Sea-Rescue HAS - Helicopter, Anti-Submarine HC - Helicopter, Cargo HCC - Helicopter, VIP transport HR - Helicopter, Reconnaissance HT - Helicopter, Training HU - Helicopter, Utility K - Tanker MR - Maritime Reconnaissance NF - Night Fighter O - Observation PR - Photo Reconnaissance R - Reconnaissance (and ELINT) S - Strike (nuclear attack, NATO nomenclature) T - Trainer TT - Target Towing TX - Training Glider W - Weather (reconnaissance) Others, like FB, HF, LF, TF, and FAW are not longer used. Sub-versions are often marked with an additional letter, usually starting with 'A', followed by 'B', and so on, but sometimes also out-of-order letters are used, according to the mission, like 'K' for tanker conversions and 'P' when modified with an in-flight-refueling probe. Comparison: US system British system ========================================================= Designation: F-4 Phantom Version: F-4B FGR.2 Sub-Version: RF-4B FGR.2A (theoretically) Name: Phantom II Phantom (obviously) In the USA we have UH-1D, UH-60A, EH-60A, SH-60B, SH-60F etc., were 'H-1' and 'H-60' are different aircraft designations, 'A', 'B', 'D' and 'F' are versions of those designs, and 'UH', 'EH' and 'SH' denote their missions. In Britain we have Tornado GR.1, Tornado F.3, Jaguar GR.1, Hunter F.5, Harrier T.10, etc., were 'Tornado', 'Jaguar', 'Hunter' and 'Harrier' are different aircraft designations, 'Mk.1', 'Mk.3', 'Mk.5' and 'Mk.10' are versions of those designs, and 'GR', 'F' and 'T' denote their missions. In the USA we have F-4B, F-4C, F-4D, F-4E -- all different versions of a specific aircraft type 'F-4' in a specific group of aircraft (Fighter). In Britain we have Phantom FG.1, FGR.2, F.3 -- all different versions of a specific aircraft type 'Phantom'. In the USA we have F-4B, RF-4B, DF-4B and QF-4B -- all different sub-versions for different missions of a specific version 'B' of a specific aircraft type 'F-4' in a specific group of aircraft (Fighter). In Britain we have Tornado GR.1, GR.1A, GR.1B -- all different sub-versions for different missions of a specific version 'GR.1' of a specific aircraft type 'Tornado'. Of course, the US designation F-4K Phantom II is equivalent to the British designation Phantom FG.1, the F-4M is the Phantom FGR.2, and the Phantom F.3 were modified F-4Js, originally known as F4J(UK). I would have liked to use the English Electric Canberra (one of my favored British aircraft) as an example, but the list would be just to long. So I selected the Hawker Hunter: Designation Version Description P.1067 3 prototypes (of F.1/F.2) P.1083 1 experimental prototype (canceled) P.1099 1 prototype (of F.6) P.1101 2 trainer prototypes (of T.7) Hunter Mk.1 F.1 139 fighter (Avon engine) Hunter Mk.2 F.2 45 fighter (Sapphire engine) Hunter Mk.3 'WB188' modified for world speed record Hunter Mk.4 F.4 349 fighter (modernized F.1) 96 license built in Netherlands by Fokker 112 license built in Belgium by Fairey and SABCA Hunter Mk.5 F.5 105 fighter (modernized F.2) Hunter Mk.6 F.6 383 fighter + 150 canceled + 32 built as Mk.56 93 license built in Netherlands by Fokker 144 license built in Belgium by Fairey Hunter Mk.7 T.7 45 trainer + 6 modified F.4 + 20 for the Netherlands 2 for Saudi Arabia (also called T.70) T.7A ? modified T.7 Hunter Mk.8 T.8 10 trainer (T.7 for Royal Navy) + 18 modified F.4 T.8B 3 modified F.4 + 1st ex-F.4-to-T.8 mod. T.8C 10 modified F.4 + 1 modified T.8 T.8M 3 modified T.8 as radar trainer for Sea Harrier Hunter Mk.9 FGA.9 128 modified F.6 (36 initially only partially mod.) 12 modified F.6 for Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) Hunter Mk.10 FR.10 33 modified F.6 (reconnaissance version) Hunter Mk.11 GA.11 40 modified F.4 (single seat trainer for Navy) (PR.11) 1+ modified with cameras, 'PR.11' is not official Hunter Mk.12 'XE531' (two-seat F.6) modified for RAE ============== As you can see, there is a consecutive number of Marks, each with only one (or none) Mission symbol (besides the in-official 'PR.11'). Export aircraft are similar designated, only that the version number often differs in so far, that much higher or customer specific numbers are used. Also, export aircraft originally didn't have a mission symbol besides trainer variants. The designation system was apparently changed at some time, to include missions symbols besides the T for trainer. Some numbers were assigned according to the modifications performed, while others were numbered according to the country they were sold to. Purpose built and converted export versions of the Hawker Hunter include the folowing -- (I tried to show logical relations): Sweden: Mk.50 Denmark: Mk.51, T.53 Peru: Mk.52, T.62 India: Mk.56, Mk.56A, T.66, T.66D, T.66E Kuwait: Mk.57, T.67 Switzerland: Mk.58, Mk.58A T.68 Iraq: Mk.59. Mk.59A, Mk.59B, T.69 Saudi Arabia: Mk.60 Hawker Siddley: Mk.66A Lebanon: FGA.70, FGA.71 T.66C Chile: FR.71A, T.72 Jordan: FGA.73, FGA.73A, FGA.73B, T.66B Singapore: FGA.74, FR.74A, FR.74B, T.75, T.75A Abu Dhabi: FGA.76, FR.76A, T.77 Qatar: FGA.78, T.79 Kenya: FGA.80, T.81 - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 17:46:47 GMT Subject: Re: Saucer Crashes, Skeptic Bulls***. OB Skunk-Works: Stealth aircraft witnessed by the general public may account for some UFO reports. ________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Author: forteana@lists.primenet.com at smtp-fhu Date: 5/08/96 21:28 >Is this writer saying the dramatic flight characteristics of the >craft observed since at least the 1890's is *within* some technology >with which he is familiar? The silent hovering, the appearing and >vanishing, the effortless swift acceleration to high speeds, the >ability to shut down electrical systems to avert being attacked? > >Evidence please! I am most sceptical of this absurd claim. >It shows how far some skeptics will go into sheer fantasy >in their efforts to explain away the obvious. I'm not defending this claim, exactly, but I was reading Curtis Peebles' Dark Eagles, about "Black projects", and there was an interesting project called HALSOL, for high-altitude solar aircraft. The fascinating thing about this was that it was a "Gossamer Albatross" kind of craft, with extremely low wing-loading, a huge wing span (it was a flying wing design), solar/battery power, and silent electric motors. Now imagine a gossamer design with the structure showing through clear plastic, the huge flying wing design (over 100 ft span, if I remember), and its silence. The craft was said to fly at 40 mph or slower. Does this remind anyone of the huge, triangular UFOs of a few years ago? I'm not saying the military are responsible for all UFO sightings, but they might take advantage of the public's belief in UFOs to cover black projects or spread their own disinformation. Also, as a list newbie, I just wanted to say I love everything that's posted. For God's sake let's not everyone get too serious. I always thought Forteana included a spot of humor. ------------------------------ From: betnal@ns.net Date: Sat, 10 Aug 96 04:34:14 GMT Subject: Unusual designations I did some research and this may prove enlightening on whether or not there was a Tornado F.1 as well as some other designation issues: When the decision was made by Britain to procure a new fighter/interceptor, the only politically acceptable option was a British aircraft and that essentially mean the Tornado. Accordingly it was announced that 165 of Britain's total Tornado buy would be of an interceptor model. The ADV aircraft were not an additional quantity, they simply replaced 165 of the IDS version that Britain was already committed to buy. Three of the first batch of Tornados were ordered to be built to this standard (ZA254, ZA267 and ZA283) as prototypes. Since the radar was way behind schedule, I don't think they were ever fitted with any. They were referred to in some press accounts as F.1 (hence my confusion), but it appears they were never Officially designated as such. The F.2 was limited to 18 aircraft. It had the larger engines and some had radars that sort of worked, but it was seen that this would not have an operational capability and so was only used for developmental work. I believe the intention was to bring them up to F.3 standard except for the engines and call them F.2A. The F.3 had the revised rear fuselage, definitve RB199 engines and full operational kit. BTW, which is correct, F.3 or F Mk 3? I've seen it both ways. Regarding the F/A-18-- that was a political designation. When the Hornet was first ordered, there were to be two variants F- and A-, with slightly different equipment and weapons capability (No Sparrows on the A-, no air to ground sensors on the F- ). Once it was anointed the Navy's Designated Wonderplane, it was decided that one version would do everything. Instead of the usual practice of indicating the design mission to the left of the dash and then preceding it with the role it was modified for (i.e KA-3, RA-5C, etc.), it was pronounced that the plane would be so versatile it would be equally good at both so it was only fitting that it be designated something that reflected that, hence the heretofore unknown "F/A" designation. A-6E (TRAM) was actually not a bastardization of the system. When the A-6E was first designed, TRAM was not part of the basic model fit. When TRAM was developed and adopted, not all A-6Es had it aboard or were capable of carrying it. The (TRAM) suffix was added to indicate that the particular A-6E had the TRAM turret. This suffix fell out of use as all operational A-6Es eventually were fitted with TRAM. F-14 (TARPS) was a similar case. When the RA-5C was retired, the Navy lost an enormous amount of tactical recon. capability. Until the definitive replacement could be fielded, an "interim" capability would be provided by F-14s carrying the TARPS pod. The definitive system would be whichever Navy aircraft was best for the job, as long as it was the F/A-18. Although an "RF-14" would have been an easy design, it wasn't considered. Their were three different major attempts to create a RF/A-18, but they fell on their face. Upgrades to TARPS have not been permitted because TARPS is only an "interim" system until the "definitive" system arrives. Not all F-14As are capable of using TARPS, so the (TARPS) suffix indicates those that are plumbed and equipped for it. All F-14Ds can use TARPS, but there are so few of those that it was simpler just to keep the (TARPS) suffix. On SSN-21 (the best stealth vehicle we ever built), the hull numbers had gotten so high, they were going to start over anyway, and instead of "SSN-1", they picked "SSN-21" as a marketing tool to symbolize the first of the 'submarines of the 21st century'. As for sub names nowadays, ADM Rickover explained why he abandoned the tradition of naming subs after sea creatures in favor of cities: Fish don't vote and have Congressmen, cities do... Art ------------------------------ From: "J. A. Viehweg" Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:20:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: jet inventor I read today (I guess it's actually yesterday now) that Sir Frank Whittle died at the age of 89. The news thing said that he invented the jet engine in 1928. Look how far they have come since then! I guess this group wouldn't be very interesting without jet engines, eh? jaime /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | I read recently that human beings use only 15% | Jaime A. Viehweg | | of their brains capacity. Makes you wonder | | | what they do with the other 75%. | jviehweg@ahhgo.com | \----------------------------------------------------------------------/ ------------------------------ From: ConsLaw@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:48:04 -0400 Subject: Frank Whittle Dies This obituary was in my local paper this morning (Indianapolis Star, August 10, 1996) - ---- Associated Press Baltimore - - Sir Frank Whittle, the british engineer who patented the idea of a jet engine but lost the race to put it in the air to a competitor in Nazi Germany, has died at 89. Whittle, of Columbia, Md., died Thursday of lung cancer, his son Ian said. Whittle, born in Coventry, England was one of two former World War II enemies who independently developed the jet airplane engine in the 1930s and '40s. The German Hans J.P. von Ohain is also credited with the invention. Though the jet's invention was perfected too late to affect the course of World War II, it has revolutionized transportation since then. Whittle was knighted in 1948 for his services. In 1991, Whittle and von Ohain were jointly awarded the prestigious Charles Stark Draper Prize of the National Academy of Engineering. - ---- ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Unusual designations On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 betnal@ns.net wrote: > On SSN-21 (the best stealth vehicle we ever built), the hull numbers had > gotten so high, they were going to start over anyway, and instead of > "SSN-1", they picked "SSN-21" as a marketing tool to symbolize the first > of the 'submarines of the 21st century'. As for sub names nowadays, ADM > Rickover explained why he abandoned the tradition of naming subs after > sea creatures in favor of cities: Fish don't vote and have Congressmen, > cities do... Are you refering with the cancelled Nuclear Attack Submarine "Seawolf"??? Well... they built only three if I am not wrong. I found a very nice article in the internet. It is from Sunday Times (London): http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/tekspy.txt In the first article it said: "The latest Russian submarine, the Akula II class, is designed to be larger, quieter and more deadly than anything western navies can put to sea. Last year (1995) an Akula II sailed virtually undetected as fas as the American east coast." Just wonder why the Russian wasn't in hurry to build a Stealth aircraft. I think the Russian thinks that they can handle with Stealth Subs. Somebody post in this list times ago about having a submarine that can open the haul and launch a VSTOL aircraft. I read the same think in Buckminster Fuller book. He said that the reason that the Soviet (by that time) never built a aircraft carrier, is because they have submarine(s) with VSTOL aircraft(s). But with all the reference I have, I never found something similar. Does anyone on this list know anything about it?? Well... anyway, now the Russian have their aircraft carrier. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mail: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "During the war (Desert Storm), I ate, I slept, and I flew. You couldn't go to town or off to the mountains. Not allow to do that. We had a joke back then: 'The only time they let you off base is to go bomb Baghdad.'" Capt. Matt Byrd (F-117 pilot) ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #693 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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