From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #715 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Monday, 7 October 1996 Volume 05 : Number 715 In this issue: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Postmaster@gatekeeper2.un.org (ccMail SMTPLINK) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 16:15:24 EST Subject: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message User mccusker is not defined Original text follows ---------------------------------------------- Received: from gatekeeper2.un.org by mail-in.un.org (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) ; Mon, 07 Oct 96 16:15:00 EST Return-Path: Received: by gatekeeper2.un.org; id QAA10632; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:20:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Received: from mail.orst.edu(128.193.4.4) by gatekeeper2.un.org via smap (3.2) id xma010621; Mon, 7 Oct 96 16:20:04 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA11647 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA11641 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610071813.LAA11641@mail.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #714 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Monday, 7 October 1996 Volume 05 : Number 714 In this issue: Re: SR-71 Engine/Jet Fuel Ordnancemen' and their pranks re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks Article Titles Re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks Re: XB-70ski...? black decoy Edwards AFB Open House.... Another article WINGS show on Discovery Re: WINGS show on Discovery Re: WINGS show on Discovery Re: WINGS show on Discovery SPYPLANES, the review Re: SPYPLANES, the review Married Pilots for spy missions. Married Pilots for spy missions. Shaker Vanes redux Re: WINGS show on Discovery and defecting from the USSR Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response Aerospike engine Re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:53:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: SR-71 Engine/Jet Fuel An absolute source on the SR-71's engines and fuel development is the pair of articles that originally appeared in _Studies in Intelligence_, the CIA's in-house journal. Both articles have been declassified and are available at the National Archives, Records Group 263, CIA. Copies are available at a minimal cost. Dr Bob - ------------------------------ From: CULLY@svr81trw.kee.aetc.af.mil (CULLY, George Mr) Date: 03 Oct 96 10:28:58 EDT Subject: Ordnancemen' and their pranks Dave Bonorden's note on ammo troops w/too much time on their hands reminded me of several photos made during the late unpleasantness in SEAsia. One shows An F-102 w/iron bombs in place of wing tanks. Another shows a Helio U-10 with a pair of Sparrows (!) on the inboard hardpoints..... And, who can forget the infamous Boeing B-52Z? Geo. Cully - ------------------------------ From: "Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:48:34 -0700 Subject: re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks > From: CULLY@svr81trw.kee.aetc.af.mil (CULLY, George Mr), on 10/3/96 10:28 AM: > And, who can forget the infamous Boeing B-52Z? There was (is) also a version of the F-4 that is sometimes seen -- I think it's the XYRFB-4XYZ or something. Has EVERYTHING on it, including a coal scoop for in-flight refueling! If someone has a copy, I'd sure like to see it available via FTP somewhere. 7 3 Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM (DM84) Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 Have you really jumped ROUND PARACHUTES? (Overheard at the Clovis Parachute Center) http://www.3lefties.com/users/needhame.html - ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Article Titles Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. I neglected to include the titles of the two articles of interest on the SR-71 engines/fuel and development. So much for thoroughness.... My students would love to lower MY grade! Kelly Johnson, "Development of the Lockheed Blackbird," _Studies in Intelligence_ Summer 1982, 3-14. William H. Brown, "J58/SR-71 Propulsion Integration," _Studies in Intelligence_ Summer 1982, 15-23. Hope this helps. I seem to recall that these articles may have been reprinted elsewhere, but can't recall if or where. Dr Bob - ------------------------------ From: FSalles@trip.com.br (Felipe Salles) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 16:32:13 -0800 Subject: Re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks CULLY, George Mr wrote: > >(Snip) > > And, who can forget the infamous Boeing B-52Z? > > Geo. Cully I may be too young but I never heard this story... Also, is there a companion FAQ to this list? Felipe - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: XB-70ski...? Greg, Thank you very much for the info on the XB-70's little canards. Steve Pace's XB-70 book (one of his better ones, I heard) is long out of print, and I haven't been able to locate a copy yet. All my other sources about the XB-70 don't mention any canards, and I have no close up photo of the cockpit/nose area, showing this modification. I did locate those canards though on two photos of the NASA XB-70, which can also be found at the Dryden photo server (like the Tu-144 pics), at: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PhotoServer/XB-70/Medium/ED68-2101.jpg and maybe also in: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PhotoServer/XB-70/Medium/ED68-2131.jpg XB-70 photo main page is: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PhotoServer/XB-70 The canards appear to be not much bigger (two times as big maybe) than the antennas below the fuselage, though. - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Kerry Ferrand Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:41:37 +1200 (NZST) Subject: black decoy An article on the AW&ST web site about towed decoys mentions (and shows an image of) a system developed by Sanders for a "black" aircraft project in the late 1980's..any speculation as to what this may have been? URL: http://www.awgnet.com/awst/avi_stor.html K - ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:04:35 -0400 Subject: Edwards AFB Open House.... Hello All, Just received the new issue of Skunk Works Star Newspaper and there is a blurb on the front page about the NASA's SR-71 will do a fly-by with double sonic booms on Oct 19th......sounds like fun to me, wish I could go... Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html - ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 14:18:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another article Boy, am I losing track of my faculties! I omitted another article of potential interest to Skunkers: Donald E. Welzenbach and Nancy Galyean, "Those Daring Young Men and Their Ultra-High-Flying Machines," _Studies in Intelligence_ 31 (Fall 1987): 103-115. [U-2 flights over Murmansk] And, thanks to John Stone's reminder, you can get copies of these articles from Photoduplication Service Library of Congress Washington DC 20504 or National Technical Information Service 5285 Port Royal Road Springfield VA 22161 (703) 487-4650 or, of course, visit the National Archives in DC, which is lots of fun. Dr Bob - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WINGS show on Discovery The Discovery Channel just aired a new (at least to me) WINGS episode, called SPYPLANES, featuring U-2 and SR-71, with a little speculation about AURORA (without using this name). All Skunk fans (in the US) can watch the repeat of it later tonight (02:00 EDT) -- I'm gonna tape it. - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > The Discovery Channel just aired a new (at least to me) WINGS episode, called > SPYPLANES, featuring U-2 and SR-71, with a little speculation about AURORA > (without using this name). All Skunk fans (in the US) can watch the repeat of > it later tonight (02:00 EDT) -- I'm gonna tape it. > > -- Andreas Also, they are going to repeat the program tomorrow Saturday Oct. 5 from 11:00 pm EDT. The problem is, it is a one hour program and the schedule for saturday look like a two hour program (from 11:00 pm to 1:00 am). They are couple of new images. Most of it, from the U-2 missions over Bosnia. A new data that I found a little rare. In the program it say there is two main requirement to be a SR-71 pilot, one of them: the pilot must be married!!! Anyone know why it is a requirement??? Well, here is the description of the program from the Discovery Channel Schedule: Spyplanes Visit the world of America's strategic and tactical spyplanes. The capabilities and accomplishments of the Blackbird are reviewed, as well as other spyplanes of the past, and plans for the future. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - ------------------------------ From: Thomas Gauldin Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery At 11:46 PM 10/4/96 -0400, Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > They are couple of new images. Most of it, from the U-2 missions >over Bosnia. > A new data that I found a little rare. In the program it say there >is two main requirement to be a SR-71 pilot, one of them: the pilot must be >married!!! Anyone know why it is a requirement??? > >> That comment didn't escape me last night, either. Could it possibly be to keep an American pilot from defecting? It sounds crazy, but could it be possible. I could see such a requirement in the former Soviet Union. . . "A pilot must be married and his wife and family will be held in protective custody whenever he commands a plane outside of our airspacr. . ." OTOH, what if the pilot's wife was mean and ugly? He might be tempted to escape from the USA just to get her in trouble. Tom Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the Longleaf Pine 12333 Wingspread Way The Summerland, where the sun doth Shine Raleigh NC 27614-9245 Where the weak grow Strong and the Strong grow Great (919) 676-1404 fax Here's to Downhome, the Old North State scoundrl@mindspring.com Please note the NEW ADDRESS - ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 19:23:28 -0400 Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery At 11:46 PM 10/4/96 -0400, Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > They are couple of new images. Most of it, from the U-2 missions >over Bosnia. > A new data that I found a little rare. In the program it say there >is two main requirement to be a SR-71 pilot, one of them: the pilot must be >married!!! Anyone know why it is a requirement??? > I can't believe that it is a requirement, because I know several SR pilots that have never been married, and became SR pilots (obviously!) Though I think the thinking is that a married person is more settled down and mature! Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPYPLANES, the review Here is a little summary of the WINGS show, titled SPYPLANES, which aired yesterday on the Discovery Channel, and which will be repeated tonight (I believe) at 11:00 p.m. EDT (my tv-guide does not give the title 'Spyplanes', but mentions the U-2 and SR-71). The show basically has three parts, the U-2, the SR-71 and their follow-on. The U-2 part concentrates on Bosnian operations from Istres, France and shows some nice new footage, with several 'out-of-the-cockpit' shots and training operations. The SR-71 part concentrates mainly on the Yom Kippur War missions flown from Griffiss AFB, NY, in October 1973, but also has some new footage, including shots from inside the pilot's helmet. The third part, by far the smallest, concentrates on the seismic events in the SF-Bay-area and the 'Donut-on-a-Rope' contrail, photographed by Steve Douglas. New footage is shown from Istres, France, Beale AFB, the secret Edwards AFB, North Base facility (!), and the Blackbird Airpark in Palmdale, as well as older footage from Lockheed, CIA, and the AW&ST Blackbird movie, filmed at Area 51, Beale AFB, (maybe Griffiss AFB) and other sites. Featured are U-2 '344', an anonymous A-12, the A-12 two-seater '927' (with Kelly Johnson in the back seat), SR-71A '955' and several anonymous SR-71s, U-2R '1074', '1096' (walk around) and '1085', as well as U-2R(T) '1078' and several other anonymous U-2s, (including a short shot of an ELINT equipped U-2R with lots of antennas below the fuselage and on two half-length pods, maybe 'SENIOR SPEAR' or 'SENIOR BOOK' ?), and a KC-135T (or maybe KC-135R), refuelling the SR-71A. The only (currently) operational female U-2 pilot, Capt. Beth Martin, is also shown for a second or two. What I didn't like, was that the writer and executive producer Steven Hoggard and his consultants, Stuart Brown (featured in interviews) and James Goodall, missed so many inaccuracies. For example: * the sentence referring to the over 150 spyplane pilots who died (since the 1940s ?) should probably refer instead to crew members; * the USAF does not deny the existence of Area 51 anymore, and has not for quite a while now; * I don't believe that it is difficult to slow the SR-71 down to subsonic speeds (even though she might handle not so well, flying slow behind a tanker); * nobody 'wants to prove that black projects exist', (it is well established that they do), people rather want to find out what those projects are; * I also don't think that the SR-71 was developed for the CIA, starting in 1961 in response to the Powers incident on May 1, 1960. I was under the impression that the A-12 (not the SR-71) was developed for the CIA starting with some U-2 follow-on studies in 1955, followed by project GUSTO from 1957 to 1959, and the official go-ahead for OXCART came on August 29, 1959 (a year before the Powers incident, not a year after). The project phase of the SR-71, on the other hand, also dates back to the late '50s, culminating in a USAF study contract for the R-12 in April 1962, which finally led to the development of the SR-71. Regarding the marriage requirement for SR-71 pilots -- it sounds like being married was supposed to show maturity, in contrast to those wild and undisciplined bachelor-kind-of-guy fighter jocks (which of course don't exist anyway, according to any fighter pilot you ask). ;) Summary: Besides the (in my personal opinion) unnecessarily graphic footage in the beginning, the show is very much worth watching, especially for Skunk Works fans, even though I would not take the accompanying text too literally (as with most WINGS shows). - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 22:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SPYPLANES, the review Additionally, the program said that the SR-71 have the ceiling of 90,000 ft plus!!! No more 80,000 ft or 85,000 ft like most of the books and tv documental said. Missions of the US Spyplanes during the Cold War will be unclassified in the year 2,010. Hopefully, we will be still alive to see it ;) May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 04:29:16 PDT Subject: Married Pilots for spy missions. Answer is easy. If downed and taken captive, the married pilot will have a better time coping with torture! Chuck - ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 7:46:39 EDT Subject: Married Pilots for spy missions. > Answer is easy. If downed and taken captive, the married > pilot will have a better time coping with torture! > Chuck > He would also be more experienced at begging for mercy! - - -- Hope for the best, expect the worst, and take what God gives you. Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) | I shaped the electrons this Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio | way, not my employer. - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 05:15:23 PDT Subject: Shaker Vanes redux The Shaker-Vanes located on the nose of the 2nd B70 prototype were used to induce turbulence during tests and was coupled to an elastic mode control system called Identically Located Acceleration and Force or ILAF. The system shook the aircraft`s sructure at 1 to 8 Hz. The ILAF dampers were used to cancel the oscillations. This system was successful and integrated into the flight controls and structure of the Rockwell B1, used to damp turbulence and smooth the ride (since we know all bomber-drivers have soft tushies which must be powdered before each flight. I hear they black out at 2 g`s.) The flights to test the system were conducted in the summer and fall of 1968. Hope this adds usefull input to the shaker discusions. Chuck EXPERIMENTAL N821T HP11T "Tango Charlie" - ------------------------------ From: Greg Weigold Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery and defecting from the USSR I could see defecting if you really didn't want to see your wife again, but other family members (ie: mother, father, siblings) might find things a little difficult.... but we're talking in the former USSR, or are we?? Greg e-mail:aa103371@dasher.csd.sc.edu or gregweigold@pmsc.com - ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:15:12 GMT Subject: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response Forwarded from the Space Tech list: Date: 3 Oct 1996 12:17:22 GMT From: mancus@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu, Subject: Black Horse for LEO [was Re: XB-70...?] In <9609018441.AA844184280@fhu.disa.mil>, "Terry Colvin" writes: >No one ever said that Black Horse is capable of continuous scaling. >With known technology, such a vehicle could put 5,000 to 6,000 lbs. >in LEO. That's all that has ever been claimed for it. With >different techniques and advances in propulsion (i.e. use the ramjet >but still keep the higher energy fuel; higher engine temperature), >you could boost this, but still you're definitely talking 10,000 lbs. >and under. From Mitch's paper, "In-flight Propellant Transfer Spaceplane Design and Testing Considerations", I quote: "A larger aircraft with a 10,000 lb payload requirement was also examined. The structural weights were raised somewhat, and the reference orbit was kept at 100 nmi circular at 98 degrees inclination. The payload into a 28.5 degree inclination orbit was also calculated. The results are in Table 5." From Table 5: JP-5/H2O2 RP-1/O2 H2/O2 Due east payload (lb): 17773 19041 17532 - - -- end quote from paper -- Note that this is for a straightforward scaleup based on a KC-10 as tanker. Where do you disagree with his figures? This ignores all the exotic tricks you mention in your post, which could conceivably boost payload even higher. Most of the changes Mitch has made in his concept since this paper appeared look to me as though they have been driven by operational considerations. I have not seen anything to indicate that he no longer believes the craft he proposed in the above quote is possible. --Cathy Mancus - ------------------------------ From: jwp@lubrizol.com Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:29:51 +0000 Subject: Aerospike engine This week's Space News reports that delays in the prototype X-33 aerospike engine may result in cancelation of testing on the back of NASA's SR-71. Any more information Mary? Joe Pialet jwp@lubrizol.com - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:51:33 PDT Subject: Re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response I do not beleive it to be scalable. Lets look at it this way.: The subsonic aerodynamics dictates similar loading and aspect ratios. This means that an increase in thrust alone will not serve our purpose. Thrust alone will influence runway requirement (since F=ma) but Vs will be a funtion of loading. The result is that for a bigger payload- the sizing exercise yields a bigger airframe with different mission-segment-weight- fractions. Since the velocities required are unchanged, but the characteristic lengths have- we DO NOT have dynamically similar vehicles. Anyone care to expand on this? Chuck - ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 9:55:10  Subject: re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response I'm not sure if I should address this to Terry or Cathy; I was the source of the paragraph quoted in Cathy's message. That statement was based on an earlier version of Mitch's work. I had not yet fully read his 1995 paper. I thank you for pointing it out to me. Although I might think his time-to-climb numbers to tanker altitude and his fuel transfer times on one of his suborbital fuel transfer proposals to be somewhat optimistic for a normal operational vehicle, that doesn't invalidate the concept. I happen to be a proponent of Black Horse, so the figures in his new paper are even more encouraging to me. As he writes, "Many criticisms have been made of the initial Black Horse design, as a result of which the concept has become stronger and more credible". The 10,000 lb. figure came from the earlier work and what could be put into an orbit of any inclination. I used that in order to present a "worst case" to show this is a viable concept. Also, I was more concerned with the proposition that a Black Horse type vehicle would be consistent with the sightings, both here and abroad of the "mystery plane". That's really the charter of this list. So, I just used a "quick and dirty" explanation in comparing it to the big dumb booster concept. Art Hanley Those that seek to find a relationship between what I've written here and what my employer may believe, seek something that can't be found. - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #714 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from mail.orst.edu, in /pub/skunk-works/digest/vNN.nMMM (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). ------------------------------ From: Postmaster@gatekeeper2.un.org (ccMail SMTPLINK) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 16:15:23 EST Subject: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message User adamsb is not defined Original text follows ---------------------------------------------- Received: from gatekeeper2.un.org by mail-in.un.org (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) ; Mon, 07 Oct 96 16:15:00 EST Return-Path: Received: by gatekeeper2.un.org; id QAA10632; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:20:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Received: from mail.orst.edu(128.193.4.4) by gatekeeper2.un.org via smap (3.2) id xma010621; Mon, 7 Oct 96 16:20:04 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA11647 for skunk-works-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by mail.orst.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA11641 for skunk-works-digest-send@mail.orst.edu; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199610071813.LAA11641@mail.orst.edu> To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #714 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Precedence: bulk Skunk Works Digest Monday, 7 October 1996 Volume 05 : Number 714 In this issue: Re: SR-71 Engine/Jet Fuel Ordnancemen' and their pranks re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks Article Titles Re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks Re: XB-70ski...? black decoy Edwards AFB Open House.... Another article WINGS show on Discovery Re: WINGS show on Discovery Re: WINGS show on Discovery Re: WINGS show on Discovery SPYPLANES, the review Re: SPYPLANES, the review Married Pilots for spy missions. Married Pilots for spy missions. Shaker Vanes redux Re: WINGS show on Discovery and defecting from the USSR Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response Aerospike engine Re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:53:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: SR-71 Engine/Jet Fuel An absolute source on the SR-71's engines and fuel development is the pair of articles that originally appeared in _Studies in Intelligence_, the CIA's in-house journal. Both articles have been declassified and are available at the National Archives, Records Group 263, CIA. Copies are available at a minimal cost. Dr Bob - ------------------------------ From: CULLY@svr81trw.kee.aetc.af.mil (CULLY, George Mr) Date: 03 Oct 96 10:28:58 EDT Subject: Ordnancemen' and their pranks Dave Bonorden's note on ammo troops w/too much time on their hands reminded me of several photos made during the late unpleasantness in SEAsia. One shows An F-102 w/iron bombs in place of wing tanks. Another shows a Helio U-10 with a pair of Sparrows (!) on the inboard hardpoints..... And, who can forget the infamous Boeing B-52Z? Geo. Cully - ------------------------------ From: "Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:48:34 -0700 Subject: re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks > From: CULLY@svr81trw.kee.aetc.af.mil (CULLY, George Mr), on 10/3/96 10:28 AM: > And, who can forget the infamous Boeing B-52Z? There was (is) also a version of the F-4 that is sometimes seen -- I think it's the XYRFB-4XYZ or something. Has EVERYTHING on it, including a coal scoop for in-flight refueling! If someone has a copy, I'd sure like to see it available via FTP somewhere. 7 3 Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM (DM84) Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 Have you really jumped ROUND PARACHUTES? (Overheard at the Clovis Parachute Center) http://www.3lefties.com/users/needhame.html - ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Article Titles Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. I neglected to include the titles of the two articles of interest on the SR-71 engines/fuel and development. So much for thoroughness.... My students would love to lower MY grade! Kelly Johnson, "Development of the Lockheed Blackbird," _Studies in Intelligence_ Summer 1982, 3-14. William H. Brown, "J58/SR-71 Propulsion Integration," _Studies in Intelligence_ Summer 1982, 15-23. Hope this helps. I seem to recall that these articles may have been reprinted elsewhere, but can't recall if or where. Dr Bob - ------------------------------ From: FSalles@trip.com.br (Felipe Salles) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 16:32:13 -0800 Subject: Re: Ordnancemen' and their pranks CULLY, George Mr wrote: > >(Snip) > > And, who can forget the infamous Boeing B-52Z? > > Geo. Cully I may be too young but I never heard this story... Also, is there a companion FAQ to this list? Felipe - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: XB-70ski...? Greg, Thank you very much for the info on the XB-70's little canards. Steve Pace's XB-70 book (one of his better ones, I heard) is long out of print, and I haven't been able to locate a copy yet. All my other sources about the XB-70 don't mention any canards, and I have no close up photo of the cockpit/nose area, showing this modification. I did locate those canards though on two photos of the NASA XB-70, which can also be found at the Dryden photo server (like the Tu-144 pics), at: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PhotoServer/XB-70/Medium/ED68-2101.jpg and maybe also in: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PhotoServer/XB-70/Medium/ED68-2131.jpg XB-70 photo main page is: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/PhotoServer/XB-70 The canards appear to be not much bigger (two times as big maybe) than the antennas below the fuselage, though. - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Kerry Ferrand Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:41:37 +1200 (NZST) Subject: black decoy An article on the AW&ST web site about towed decoys mentions (and shows an image of) a system developed by Sanders for a "black" aircraft project in the late 1980's..any speculation as to what this may have been? URL: http://www.awgnet.com/awst/avi_stor.html K - ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:04:35 -0400 Subject: Edwards AFB Open House.... Hello All, Just received the new issue of Skunk Works Star Newspaper and there is a blurb on the front page about the NASA's SR-71 will do a fly-by with double sonic booms on Oct 19th......sounds like fun to me, wish I could go... Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html - ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 14:18:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another article Boy, am I losing track of my faculties! I omitted another article of potential interest to Skunkers: Donald E. Welzenbach and Nancy Galyean, "Those Daring Young Men and Their Ultra-High-Flying Machines," _Studies in Intelligence_ 31 (Fall 1987): 103-115. [U-2 flights over Murmansk] And, thanks to John Stone's reminder, you can get copies of these articles from Photoduplication Service Library of Congress Washington DC 20504 or National Technical Information Service 5285 Port Royal Road Springfield VA 22161 (703) 487-4650 or, of course, visit the National Archives in DC, which is lots of fun. Dr Bob - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WINGS show on Discovery The Discovery Channel just aired a new (at least to me) WINGS episode, called SPYPLANES, featuring U-2 and SR-71, with a little speculation about AURORA (without using this name). All Skunk fans (in the US) can watch the repeat of it later tonight (02:00 EDT) -- I'm gonna tape it. - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > The Discovery Channel just aired a new (at least to me) WINGS episode, called > SPYPLANES, featuring U-2 and SR-71, with a little speculation about AURORA > (without using this name). All Skunk fans (in the US) can watch the repeat of > it later tonight (02:00 EDT) -- I'm gonna tape it. > > -- Andreas Also, they are going to repeat the program tomorrow Saturday Oct. 5 from 11:00 pm EDT. The problem is, it is a one hour program and the schedule for saturday look like a two hour program (from 11:00 pm to 1:00 am). They are couple of new images. Most of it, from the U-2 missions over Bosnia. A new data that I found a little rare. In the program it say there is two main requirement to be a SR-71 pilot, one of them: the pilot must be married!!! Anyone know why it is a requirement??? Well, here is the description of the program from the Discovery Channel Schedule: Spyplanes Visit the world of America's strategic and tactical spyplanes. The capabilities and accomplishments of the Blackbird are reviewed, as well as other spyplanes of the past, and plans for the future. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - ------------------------------ From: Thomas Gauldin Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery At 11:46 PM 10/4/96 -0400, Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > They are couple of new images. Most of it, from the U-2 missions >over Bosnia. > A new data that I found a little rare. In the program it say there >is two main requirement to be a SR-71 pilot, one of them: the pilot must be >married!!! Anyone know why it is a requirement??? > >> That comment didn't escape me last night, either. Could it possibly be to keep an American pilot from defecting? It sounds crazy, but could it be possible. I could see such a requirement in the former Soviet Union. . . "A pilot must be married and his wife and family will be held in protective custody whenever he commands a plane outside of our airspacr. . ." OTOH, what if the pilot's wife was mean and ugly? He might be tempted to escape from the USA just to get her in trouble. Tom Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the Longleaf Pine 12333 Wingspread Way The Summerland, where the sun doth Shine Raleigh NC 27614-9245 Where the weak grow Strong and the Strong grow Great (919) 676-1404 fax Here's to Downhome, the Old North State scoundrl@mindspring.com Please note the NEW ADDRESS - ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 19:23:28 -0400 Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery At 11:46 PM 10/4/96 -0400, Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > They are couple of new images. Most of it, from the U-2 missions >over Bosnia. > A new data that I found a little rare. In the program it say there >is two main requirement to be a SR-71 pilot, one of them: the pilot must be >married!!! Anyone know why it is a requirement??? > I can't believe that it is a requirement, because I know several SR pilots that have never been married, and became SR pilots (obviously!) Though I think the thinking is that a married person is more settled down and mature! Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html - ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 20:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPYPLANES, the review Here is a little summary of the WINGS show, titled SPYPLANES, which aired yesterday on the Discovery Channel, and which will be repeated tonight (I believe) at 11:00 p.m. EDT (my tv-guide does not give the title 'Spyplanes', but mentions the U-2 and SR-71). The show basically has three parts, the U-2, the SR-71 and their follow-on. The U-2 part concentrates on Bosnian operations from Istres, France and shows some nice new footage, with several 'out-of-the-cockpit' shots and training operations. The SR-71 part concentrates mainly on the Yom Kippur War missions flown from Griffiss AFB, NY, in October 1973, but also has some new footage, including shots from inside the pilot's helmet. The third part, by far the smallest, concentrates on the seismic events in the SF-Bay-area and the 'Donut-on-a-Rope' contrail, photographed by Steve Douglas. New footage is shown from Istres, France, Beale AFB, the secret Edwards AFB, North Base facility (!), and the Blackbird Airpark in Palmdale, as well as older footage from Lockheed, CIA, and the AW&ST Blackbird movie, filmed at Area 51, Beale AFB, (maybe Griffiss AFB) and other sites. Featured are U-2 '344', an anonymous A-12, the A-12 two-seater '927' (with Kelly Johnson in the back seat), SR-71A '955' and several anonymous SR-71s, U-2R '1074', '1096' (walk around) and '1085', as well as U-2R(T) '1078' and several other anonymous U-2s, (including a short shot of an ELINT equipped U-2R with lots of antennas below the fuselage and on two half-length pods, maybe 'SENIOR SPEAR' or 'SENIOR BOOK' ?), and a KC-135T (or maybe KC-135R), refuelling the SR-71A. The only (currently) operational female U-2 pilot, Capt. Beth Martin, is also shown for a second or two. What I didn't like, was that the writer and executive producer Steven Hoggard and his consultants, Stuart Brown (featured in interviews) and James Goodall, missed so many inaccuracies. For example: * the sentence referring to the over 150 spyplane pilots who died (since the 1940s ?) should probably refer instead to crew members; * the USAF does not deny the existence of Area 51 anymore, and has not for quite a while now; * I don't believe that it is difficult to slow the SR-71 down to subsonic speeds (even though she might handle not so well, flying slow behind a tanker); * nobody 'wants to prove that black projects exist', (it is well established that they do), people rather want to find out what those projects are; * I also don't think that the SR-71 was developed for the CIA, starting in 1961 in response to the Powers incident on May 1, 1960. I was under the impression that the A-12 (not the SR-71) was developed for the CIA starting with some U-2 follow-on studies in 1955, followed by project GUSTO from 1957 to 1959, and the official go-ahead for OXCART came on August 29, 1959 (a year before the Powers incident, not a year after). The project phase of the SR-71, on the other hand, also dates back to the late '50s, culminating in a USAF study contract for the R-12 in April 1962, which finally led to the development of the SR-71. Regarding the marriage requirement for SR-71 pilots -- it sounds like being married was supposed to show maturity, in contrast to those wild and undisciplined bachelor-kind-of-guy fighter jocks (which of course don't exist anyway, according to any fighter pilot you ask). ;) Summary: Besides the (in my personal opinion) unnecessarily graphic footage in the beginning, the show is very much worth watching, especially for Skunk Works fans, even though I would not take the accompanying text too literally (as with most WINGS shows). - - -- Andreas - - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - - --- --- - ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 22:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SPYPLANES, the review Additionally, the program said that the SR-71 have the ceiling of 90,000 ft plus!!! No more 80,000 ft or 85,000 ft like most of the books and tv documental said. Missions of the US Spyplanes during the Cold War will be unclassified in the year 2,010. Hopefully, we will be still alive to see it ;) May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@barney.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 04:29:16 PDT Subject: Married Pilots for spy missions. Answer is easy. If downed and taken captive, the married pilot will have a better time coping with torture! Chuck - ------------------------------ From: dougt@u011.oh.vp.com (Doug Tiffany) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 7:46:39 EDT Subject: Married Pilots for spy missions. > Answer is easy. If downed and taken captive, the married > pilot will have a better time coping with torture! > Chuck > He would also be more experienced at begging for mercy! - - -- Hope for the best, expect the worst, and take what God gives you. Douglas J. Tiffany (dougt@u011.oh.vp.com) | I shaped the electrons this Varco-Pruden Buildings Van Wert, Ohio | way, not my employer. - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 05:15:23 PDT Subject: Shaker Vanes redux The Shaker-Vanes located on the nose of the 2nd B70 prototype were used to induce turbulence during tests and was coupled to an elastic mode control system called Identically Located Acceleration and Force or ILAF. The system shook the aircraft`s sructure at 1 to 8 Hz. The ILAF dampers were used to cancel the oscillations. This system was successful and integrated into the flight controls and structure of the Rockwell B1, used to damp turbulence and smooth the ride (since we know all bomber-drivers have soft tushies which must be powdered before each flight. I hear they black out at 2 g`s.) The flights to test the system were conducted in the summer and fall of 1968. Hope this adds usefull input to the shaker discusions. Chuck EXPERIMENTAL N821T HP11T "Tango Charlie" - ------------------------------ From: Greg Weigold Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: WINGS show on Discovery and defecting from the USSR I could see defecting if you really didn't want to see your wife again, but other family members (ie: mother, father, siblings) might find things a little difficult.... but we're talking in the former USSR, or are we?? Greg e-mail:aa103371@dasher.csd.sc.edu or gregweigold@pmsc.com - ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 08:15:12 GMT Subject: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response Forwarded from the Space Tech list: Date: 3 Oct 1996 12:17:22 GMT From: mancus@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu, Subject: Black Horse for LEO [was Re: XB-70...?] In <9609018441.AA844184280@fhu.disa.mil>, "Terry Colvin" writes: >No one ever said that Black Horse is capable of continuous scaling. >With known technology, such a vehicle could put 5,000 to 6,000 lbs. >in LEO. That's all that has ever been claimed for it. With >different techniques and advances in propulsion (i.e. use the ramjet >but still keep the higher energy fuel; higher engine temperature), >you could boost this, but still you're definitely talking 10,000 lbs. >and under. From Mitch's paper, "In-flight Propellant Transfer Spaceplane Design and Testing Considerations", I quote: "A larger aircraft with a 10,000 lb payload requirement was also examined. The structural weights were raised somewhat, and the reference orbit was kept at 100 nmi circular at 98 degrees inclination. The payload into a 28.5 degree inclination orbit was also calculated. The results are in Table 5." From Table 5: JP-5/H2O2 RP-1/O2 H2/O2 Due east payload (lb): 17773 19041 17532 - - -- end quote from paper -- Note that this is for a straightforward scaleup based on a KC-10 as tanker. Where do you disagree with his figures? This ignores all the exotic tricks you mention in your post, which could conceivably boost payload even higher. Most of the changes Mitch has made in his concept since this paper appeared look to me as though they have been driven by operational considerations. I have not seen anything to indicate that he no longer believes the craft he proposed in the above quote is possible. --Cathy Mancus - ------------------------------ From: jwp@lubrizol.com Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 12:29:51 +0000 Subject: Aerospike engine This week's Space News reports that delays in the prototype X-33 aerospike engine may result in cancelation of testing on the back of NASA's SR-71. Any more information Mary? Joe Pialet jwp@lubrizol.com - ------------------------------ From: Charles_E._Smith.wbst200@xerox.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:51:33 PDT Subject: Re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response I do not beleive it to be scalable. Lets look at it this way.: The subsonic aerodynamics dictates similar loading and aspect ratios. This means that an increase in thrust alone will not serve our purpose. Thrust alone will influence runway requirement (since F=ma) but Vs will be a funtion of loading. The result is that for a bigger payload- the sizing exercise yields a bigger airframe with different mission-segment-weight- fractions. Since the velocities required are unchanged, but the characteristic lengths have- we DO NOT have dynamically similar vehicles. Anyone care to expand on this? Chuck - ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 9:55:10  Subject: re: Black Horse for Leo [was Re: XB-70...?] - Response I'm not sure if I should address this to Terry or Cathy; I was the source of the paragraph quoted in Cathy's message. That statement was based on an earlier version of Mitch's work. I had not yet fully read his 1995 paper. I thank you for pointing it out to me. Although I might think his time-to-climb numbers to tanker altitude and his fuel transfer times on one of his suborbital fuel transfer proposals to be somewhat optimistic for a normal operational vehicle, that doesn't invalidate the concept. I happen to be a proponent of Black Horse, so the figures in his new paper are even more encouraging to me. As he writes, "Many criticisms have been made of the initial Black Horse design, as a result of which the concept has become stronger and more credible". The 10,000 lb. figure came from the earlier work and what could be put into an orbit of any inclination. I used that in order to present a "worst case" to show this is a viable concept. Also, I was more concerned with the proposition that a Black Horse type vehicle would be consistent with the sightings, both here and abroad of the "mystery plane". That's really the charter of this list. So, I just used a "quick and dirty" explanation in comparing it to the big dumb booster concept. Art Hanley Those that seek to find a relationship between what I've written here and what my employer may believe, seek something that can't be found. - ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #714 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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