From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #727 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 19 November 1996 Volume 05 : Number 727 In this issue: Inside of the Skunk Works (fwd) Auto Reply from Watch_Mail for 9-NOV-1996 01:00 to 18-NOV-1996 08:00 Re: Airborne Laser Re: Inside the Skunk Works Re[2]: Airborne Laser RE: ABL KC-135 Book First Announcement Re: ABL Uh, whoops.... Apple Newton and the USAF....(long) Re: Airborne Laser re: Time to Web and news on the A16 project... Lockheed & Navy's A-12 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:03:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Inside of the Skunk Works (fwd) Sorry if anybody in the list got the same message, but, I didn't get the e-mail that I posted before neither anything after that... is the system down again? May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 02:23:32 -0500 (EST) From: Wei-Jen Su To: Skunk Works Subject: Inside of the Skunk Works Well, since in this list does not talk a lot about how the people of Skunk Works works inside, let me start: I was talking to a friend of mine that worked in Skunk Works a couple of years ago, he was working in the shape of the YF-22. He mention that the Skunkers work separate in differents teams (depenting in their specialization) for the same goal. Each team specialize in something, and work on it, bringing the result all together during a general meeting (where all the teams meet). For example, to define the tail section of the YF-22, two differents teams work in the stability of the tail, one is from the wind tunnel test group, the other is from a computer simulation group. At the end of their work, they bring together their datas, and match the result. Most of the time are the same, but some times, one of the team made a error... The great part is that they work as a professional, if a team made a error, big deal, they correct it without getting mad, complain, embarrass, etc. I asked him if the F-117 can carry Harm, he said yes!! I asked him what is the real max. range and speed of the AIM-120?... the data amazed me!!! I couldn't react for a 5 seconds!!! He didn't tell me that this data is classified, but just to make sure, another expert of this missile in the list can offer the unclassified data. He said, practically, the missile can reach its target without been detected by the enemy aircraft. That's why USAF is not hurry up to fill the short range gap of the next generation Sidewinder (AIM-9X). May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net ------------------------------ From: Mark A Buda DTN 381-1969 17-Nov-1996 2118 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 21:17:39 EST Subject: Auto Reply from Watch_Mail for 9-NOV-1996 01:00 to 18-NOV-1996 08:00 I will be out of the office until November 18, 1996. I will respond to your mail when I return. If you have an urgent Digital Equipment Corporation work related need, please contact: OMT Tony Payne star::tpayne HFS/Security Jim Lanciani star::lanciani - mark ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:35:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Airborne Laser The concept of the airborne laser platform predates the Air Force effort during the 1970s. As early as the end of the 1950s and beginning of the 1960s, the Air Force gathered data on the boost phase of ballistic missiles. This entailed using airborne platforms to scan Soviet territory with IR and special optical sensors while orbiting outside Soviet airspace over international waters or friendly countries. The sensors would detect and track the missile during its vulnerable boost phase, when it was slowest and most prone to explode due to the large amount of (then liquid) fuel. Officially know as RAMP for RAdiation Monitoring, TRAP for Terminal RAdiation Monitoring, and MATS for Midcourse Acquistion and Tracking System, these sensors were tested on board JKC-135s assigned to the Air Force Eastern Test Range at Patrick AFB, FL. The airplanes practiced gathering data on U.S. missile launches from Canaveral/Kennedy. Although these were primarily "testbed" missions, the combat applications were clear and not far from the minds of senior Air Force planners, including then-Air Force Chief of Staff Curt LeMay. The weak link in the entire process was of course the laser and scintillation effects. By the time the NKC-135A Airborne Laser Lab (ALL) flew, the technology was just too wimpy to make a laser work reliably and with the number of shots required to defeat the Soviet ICBM fleet in a mass launch. The program went into hibernation, to be resurrected recently. Another weak point was the vulnerability of the sensors and shooters, as they were clearly high value assets (HVAs) and prone to be among the first airplanes to be attacked. Subsequent programs related to SDIO derive from these early efforts. Sorry to digress, but the idea of the 747 ABL is at least 35 years out of date. Been there, done that, saw the movie, got the t-shirt and the action figure. Reinvent the wheel, eh, whot? Dr Bob ------------------------------ From: betnal@ns.net Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 06:05:49 GMT Subject: Re: Inside the Skunk Works I would say the reasons USAF is not in a hurry for AIM-9X are twofold: First, they don't like to acknowledge the short range air battle and how it can negate certain (expensive) technological advances. Second, and probably more importantly, AIM-9X is not a USAF managed program. The Air Force, much more than other Services, traditionally has little acceptance of programs it doesn't control. Art ------------------------------ From: gregweigold@pmsc.com (GREG WEIGOLD) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:23:25 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: Airborne Laser Even though the program is really 40 years old, wouldn't it prove useful for the odd launch from a small unfriendly like Iran or Iraq (or Libya, remember THAT madman is still in power too). Obviously you couldn't have a fleet of these, but a few in the Med for use when things are 'hotting up' wouldn't be a half bad idea. The time and technology seem right to me. I don't think that anyone would plan for use of these during a mass launch, but who really plans on a 'mass launch' anymore either? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Airborne Laser Author: drbob@creighton.edu at Internet Date: 11/17/96 8:35 PM The concept of the airborne laser platform predates the Air Force effort during the 1970s. As early as the end of the 1950s and beginning of the 1960s, the Air Force gathered data on the boost phase of ballistic missiles. This entailed using airborne platforms to scan Soviet territory with IR and special optical sensors while orbiting outside Soviet airspace over international waters or friendly countries. The sensors would detect and track the missile during its vulnerable boost phase, when it was slowest and most prone to explode due to the large amount of (then liquid) fuel. Officially know as RAMP for RAdiation Monitoring, TRAP for Terminal RAdiation Monitoring, and MATS for Midcourse Acquistion and Tracking System, these sensors were tested on board JKC-135s assigned to the Air Force Eastern Test Range at Patrick AFB, FL. The airplanes practiced gathering data on U.S. missile launches from Canaveral/Kennedy. Although these were primarily "testbed" missions, the combat applications were clear and not far from the minds of senior Air Force planners, including then-Air Force Chief of Staff Curt LeMay. The weak link in the entire process was of course the laser and scintillation effects. By the time the NKC-135A Airborne Laser Lab (ALL) flew, the technology was just too wimpy to make a laser work reliably and with the number of shots required to defeat the Soviet ICBM fleet in a mass launch. The program went into hibernation, to be resurrected recently. Another weak point was the vulnerability of the sensors and shooters, as they were clearly high value assets (HVAs) and prone to be among the first airplanes to be attacked. Subsequent programs related to SDIO derive from these early efforts. Sorry to digress, but the idea of the 747 ABL is at least 35 years out of date. Been there, done that, saw the movie, got the t-shirt and the action figure. Reinvent the wheel, eh, whot? Dr Bob ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:06:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: ABL On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, JOHN SZALAY wrote: > > I have a personal feeling that The ABL 747 won't be much of a weapon > > system. Don't get me wrong, ABL sounds fantastic (we've been waiting > > since early Flash Gordon movie serials... ;) It's the 747 part that > > seems awkward. > > Possibly, however its NOT an attack type aircraft, more like the > AWACS, JSTARS, RC-135 genera. A sedate airliner airframe flying a > racetrack pattern near the area of conflict, With AWACS & CAP support. From what I remember the AW&ST said, the ABL does not need be to be agile. Unlike AWACS, Rivet Joint, etc. the ABL can self protect using the laser!! They are thinking that the ABL does not even need escort. The laser will shoot the enemy missile or aircraft. They even thought as a possible platform to shoot low level satellites (only concepts). The chemical fuel for the laser stored in the 747-400 is enought for about 40 shoots. Of course, the ultimate goal for the next-next generation aircraft, is automata (robot) aircraft, small, agile, arm with laser that fight the war for us!!!! We don't even have to worry about casuaties of the pilots. Of course, we are going to face the Judgment Day like T2 ;) May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:58:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: KC-135 Book First Announcement Hello! After many months of anguish, I'm pleased to announce that my never-finished book on the Boeing KC-135 _More Than Just a Tanker_, is now in press with Aerofax/Midland Publishing of Leicester, England. I've prepared a web page or two to keep you informed of the book's status, details about its content, and links (soon to be added) to other KC-135 related sites as well as my own forthcoming unofficial KC-135 home page. Please look at the following URL for more information. If you contact me from that site, you'll automatically receive updates via e-mail. I know you'll be pleased to see the book, and I look forward to your comments. Thanks for your continued support and interest. Best Regards, Robert S. "DrBob" Hopkins, III ------------------------------ From: FSalles@trip.com.br (Felipe Salles) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 06:25:41 -0700 Subject: Re: ABL Wei-Jen Su wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, JOHN SZALAY wrote: > > > > I have a personal feeling that The ABL 747 won't be much of a weapon (Snip) > > > It's the 747 part that seems awkward. > > > > Possibly, however its NOT an attack type aircraft, more like the > > AWACS, JSTARS, RC-135 genera. A sedate airliner airframe flying a > > racetrack pattern near the area of conflict, With AWACS & CAP support. > > From what I remember the AW&ST said, the ABL does not need be to > be agile. Unlike AWACS, Rivet Joint, etc. the ABL can self protect using > the laser!! They are thinking that the ABL does not even need escort. the > laser will shoot the enemy missile or aircraft. They even thought as a > possible platform to shoot low level satellites (only concepts). > The chemical fuel for the laser stored in the 747-400 is enought > for about 40 shoots. There is a contradiction on the data above. Picture this... the ABL has (sic) forty "rounds" in his "gun" and NO escort. Suddenly his Radar/ECM/whatever equipment detects a salvo of 20 long range AAM... Does he use the ABL to destroy them and goes "bullet-less" or does he run for it? If only he had more ammo the self-defence scenario would work fine, otherwise... > Of course, the ultimate goal for the next-next generation > aircraft, is automata (robot) aircraft, small, agile, arm with laser that > fight the war for us!!!! We don't even have to worry about casuaties of > the pilots. Of course, we are going to face the Judgment Day like T2 ;) Machines break down (even more than men), look where they got the world into (in T2). Also keep Bill Gates'products track record in mind... ;) Felipe > ------------------------------ From: drbob@creighton.edu Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:09:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Uh, whoops.... So much for attention to detail. Mea culpa. The URL for the KC-135 book is http://www.novia.net/~drbob/kc135_book.html Does this mean I can get a job with Microsoft selling Windows 95? Thanks again for your patience. Dr Bob ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:40:09 -0500 Subject: Apple Newton and the USAF....(long) Hi, Not exactly Skunk Works, but I thought the list might be interested in this: >ETEs QuickFlight Wireless and GPS Technologies for Newton Help MITRE >Deliver State-of-the-Art Situation Awareness System to the United States >Air Force > >TASR, an Interactive Situation Warning System, to be Demonstrated at >Comdex96 > >San Diego, CA - November 15, 1996 - In one of the more stunning examples >of the leveraging of Apples pioneering Newton technology, ETE and MITRE >will demonstrate the latest in wireless and navigation technologies on >the new, handheld Apple MessagePad 2000 next week at the Comdex96 >exposition in Las Vegas. While the MessagePad 2000 may prove to be a >complete mobile computer for the business professional, with core >applications ranging from e-mail and web access to personal productivity >and desktop connectivity, what ETE and MITRE have done with the Newton >platform adds a completely new dimension to the use of Newton-enabled >handheld devices. Applications designed to date, or under development, >could revolutionize how American military personnel receive critical >information during combat or how civilians are warned at times of natural >disaster, such as earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes, or how police >officers respond to a crime scene or receive time critical traffic >information. > >ETE and MITRE will demonstrate at the Apple Newton Pavilion (L4852) in >Las Vegas, a prototype hardware and software system known as TASR or >Tactical Automated Situation Receiver. At the core of TASRs innovative >technology is an Apple Newton processor, a Global Positioning System >receiver, a wireless 2-way radio, MITRE proprietary software and ETEs >proprietary QuickFlight wireless communications software. Developed >jointly with ESC, the Electronic Systems Center of the United States Air >Force, TASR, its creators believe, represents the first in a series of >handheld devices that will incorporate the ultimate portable warning >system that has significate potential to improve hazard avoidance >techniques and protect human life in both military and civilian >applications. > >Tactical Automated Situation Receiver (TASR) > >The TASR system will demonstrate a new concept for disseminating warning >and key situation awareness information to in-field forces over hand-held >devices. Key features of the system include: (1) the broadcast of >information directly to in-field personnel, (2) proprietary processing of >this information for improved mission effectiveness, and (3) display of >relevant information both graphically (show relationship to receiver >location) and textually (for event details) with alarm. This approach >results in rapid dissemination of situation information to broadly >dispersed assets but only provides the relevant information to those who >are affected. The use of broadcast also minimizes bandwidth utilization >and allows silent unit operation. Since graphic representation of spatial >situations is key to understanding them, the in-field units will use >moving maps to aid navigation and provide a reference for information >overlays (e.g. areas where threats are imminent). > >TASR Mapping Displays > >TASR leverages manually scanned maps, DMA Topographic Line Maps, and >other mapping products to provide maps in several scales. TASR Map >display modes include: (1) moving map centered at user GPS derived >location, (2) stationary map with user GPS position and movement history >plotted, and (3) user selected map region without position plotting. >Scale changes preserve the actively displayed map area for continuity of >reference. The map capability supports entry, editing, and display of way >points along routes as well as navigation points of significance to the >user. Distance and heading from one point to another can be calculated by >touching the point locations on the MessagePad 2000s screen. Cross track >distances from a specified route are calculated at defined and >programmable intervals while the unit is navigating. The actual path >traversed may be displayed and stored automatically for later reference >if desired. Map and situation data will be automatically updated from the >server as units move across the affected event area. In future versions >(once expanded storage on the mobile units is incorporated) map data may >reside within the unit, eliminating the need for communications between >unit and server to provide wide area static map data. An Apple Macintosh >PowerPC will act as the situation server. Specially developed software >will implement the functionality. DMA Compressed Digital Raster Graphic >derived and manually scanned maps will be used for the map underlays. > >TASR Field Data Reporting > >Two-way communications capabilities permit hand-held units to collect and >report changes (e.g., damaged areas, critical asset locations, >operational status) and key events (e.g., threat position and activity, >chemical/biological events) on the affected region. In addition, unit >position and movement may be monitored at the server and redistributed to >other in-field units. Standard report forms are supported with basic >information already filled in (e.g., unit identity, unit position and >time of report). Event locations distant from the user are specified >using drawing techniques based on map, heading and distance, or known >object selection techniques. > >The TASR project contains many integrated, off-the-shelf features of ETEs >QuickFlight Wireless software and its proprietary MobileTrak Automatic >Vehicle Location System, including the QuickFlight Wireless Server, the >MobileTrak Mapping Display Server software, the QuickFlight Wireless >Client for Newton, customized moving map display software as well as >other customized software developed specifically for the TASR/ISR (TASR >Interactive Situation Reporting) project. > >ETE's QuickFlight > >ETEs QuickFlight Wireless Architecture is the focal point of a >cross-platform wireless software offering which includes software >development kits (SDKs), wireless Transport tools, device drivers, and >wireless agents. ETEs QuickFlight application programming interfaces >(APIs) which promote rapid wireless application development have been >defined for, and an SDK is available for, Macintosh and Newton. A Windows >NT release is expected in early 1997. The commonality of ETEs >cross-platform services promotes the development of wireless applications >for peer-to-peer or client-server environments using todays mixed >hardware systems. QuickFlight allows mobile users to have Internet >access, "direct to desktop" wireless electronic mail, as well as provides >a simple means of access to other business information and interaction >with existing desktop applications. Additionally, the network independent >nature of the QuickFlight API allows desktop computers and mobile devices >to easily transmit and receive data over various wireless data networks. > >The Comdex demonstration will take place over the RAM Mobile Data >wireless network using Megahertz Allpoints Wireless PC Cards, a GARMIN >GPS receiver and Apples MessagePad 2000. > >MITRE: The MITRE Corporation is an independent, not-for-profit company, >established in 1958, that provides technical support to the federal >government. MITRE Corporation is a systems engineering company dedicated >to serving the public interest. MITRE applies leading edge technology to >some of the most important systems in the world, including our nation's >military command and control, and commercial air traffic control systems. >MITRE employs approximately 4,500 technical and support staff at its >headquarters in Bedford, Massachusetts, and northern Virginia, and at >more than 60 sites throughout the world. Website: > >ESC/USAF: The Electronic Systems Center (ESC) is the Air Force's center >of excellence for the development and acquisition of command, control, >communications, computer, and intelligence systems. ESC is a product >organization of the Air Force Material Command (AFMC) and is located at >Hanscom Air Force Base, MA. ESC develops and acquires systems that >combine computers, radars, information displays, and communication gear. >These systems monitor enemy forces and allow U.S. commanders to make >quick decisions based on the latest information and quickly transmit >those decisions to troops in the field. Among the systems developed by >ESC are the Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), the Ballistic >Missile Early Warning System, the North American Aerospace Defense >command center in Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado, and the Joint Surveillance >Target Attack Radar System (Joint STARS). Website: > > >ETE: Founded in 1993, ETE, Inc., is an integrator, manufacturer and >supplier of software products and patented hardware technology for use in >advanced wireless communications systems worldwide. The companys >activities embrace wireless computing, navigation and communications over >wireless wide area networks (WWAN). The ETE Wireless family of products >includes the QuickFlight wireless software development tools and >applications and MobileTrak, an autonomous automatic vehicle location >(AVL) system. ETE has been developing wireless navigation solutions for >the Newton operating system for over 3 years. Website: > > >Megahertz, a division of US Robotics, provided the the Allpoints Wireless >PC Cards (wireless radio modems) used in TASR demonstration. Website: >. > >RAM Mobile Data. Data was transmitted wirelessly over the RAM Mobile Data >network, a nationwide, public digital packet data network. Website: > > | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 08:15:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Airborne Laser Comments by : Art Hanley@IM@SPK Date : Monday, November 18, 1996 9:15:19 Forwarded to : internet[skunk-works@mail.orst.edu] -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- To : smtp@SPKSYS12@Servers[] From : Art Hanley@IM@SPK Subject : Re: Airborne Laser Date : Monday, November 18, 1996 at 9:04:06 am PST - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Some thoughts for Felipe and Brett: Regarding using the 747 and whether it's a "stop-gap" system. At this point in time, it takes a 747 to hold all the equipment, assuming it all works. Yes, it's probably true that the next version could be smaller, and the next version smaller than that. This is always true. However, sooner or later you've got to build or buy Something, and for now this is where the state of the art is. To draw a parallel, If you wait, will the next generation of PCs be smaller, faster and cheaper? If you need and can afford a PC now should you buy one now? The answer to both questions is "Yes". Otherwise, the best way to insure you always have the latest technology in PCs or lasers is to never buy anything because there will always be something better if you wait long enough. Of course, in this case, if we don't buy the ABLs, what's the incentive for anyone to make a smaller one? As far as support goes, it's a 747. As for Brett's question regarding dogfights, the sustained dogfight hasn't been a major component of air combat since before WWII. With 50g missiles, point and shoot has now become even more important than sustained aircraft maneuverability. In the case of the ABL, when the ability to quickly deliver enough power on target to knock down aircraft in all weathers becomes operational, and it will, this will revolutionize air combat more than anything in history. No matter how agile a fighter is, relative to the beam it's motionless. With good sensor lock (not necessarily onboard the laser aircraft), a 360 degree multi-shot long range laser aircraft is going to dominate the air battle arena no matter how it lumbers through the sky. This is where stealth will become even more important, because the only way to negate or shoot down such a platform will be to keep it from "seeing" the opponent or the opponent's weapons until it's too late. Art Hanley Once again, do not make the mistake of believing that whatever I droned on about above has anything to do with I am authorized to drone on about. ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 9:29:46  Subject: re: Time to Web and news on the A16 project... Felipe: The Avenger II was the A-12, not the A-16. It's not surprising that there's nothing on Macair's page. They were not the lead on that program (it was General Dynamics), and their page is for current business. The A-12 is in the past and left a bad taste in their mouth. You can expect the JSF stuff to disappear from their page fairly soon, I'd wager. You can probaly find some info in the Skunk-Works archives, because it was discussed here, otherwise I'd reccommend seeing what is available in the libraries that are available to you. Art Hanley Don't even think, not for a second, That what I said above has anything To do with my employer's position. ------------------------------ From: jblue@gate.net (Jeff Blue) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:31:30 -0500 Subject: Lockheed & Navy's A-12 Sunday morning CSPAN aired an interview/call-in show about the JSF prototype contracts. Representatives with DoD, Lockheed and Boeing were on hand. The Lockheed rep. mentioned their experience with the F-22 and the Navy's A-12 as reasons why they can be successful with the JSF competition. Wasn't the A-12 a McDonnell-Douglas contract? Does anyone know to what degree Lockheed was involved? How far along did the A-12 program get before it was canceled? The Lockheed rep. also talked about the different versions for Marines, Navy and Air Force. He gave the impression that they can just slap in a verticle fan and have a verticle landing capability for the marines. How different are the different service versions likely to be? Is this going to be everything for everybody like the F4 Phantom or end up with a more limited role than anticipated like the F-111? Jeff Blue / jblue@gate.net ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #727 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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