From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #731 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 3 December 1996 Volume 05 : Number 731 In this issue: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, from the USAF 2025 study Re: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, New Book?-Flight Testing at Edwards Re: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, from the USAF 2025 study camberra New home for list Re: New home for list RE: Long Wings Canberra/U-2 Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: Concussive force of Laser radiation Re: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform ... Question re: Question Skunky AvLeak item Re: Skunky AvLeak item re: Skunky AvLeak item re: Question Re: Skunky AvLeak item Re:Re: Question F-19 kits and PC sims A-12 prototype viewing See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:02:27 -0800 Subject: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, from the USAF 2025 study The USAF 2025 study, the Executive Summary of which was released to the public in August 1996, was a study designed to comply with a directive from the chief of staff of the Air Force to examine the concepts, capabilities, and technologies the United States will require in the future. Now for a disclaimer: the views expressed in the study report were those of the authors and do not reflect the official policy or position of the United States Air Force, Department of Defense, or the United States government. In PART 2 of the 2025 Study Executive Summary, entitled "The Methodology and White Paper Summaries" and in Section 9 entitled "White Paper Summaries: Power And Influence" there was a subsection entitled: Aerial Strike Systems A Hypersonic Attack Platform: The S3 Concept I have not seen an available document describing this system concept. However, I found an interesting little tidbit in the official AIAA program for the 7th International Space Planes and Hypersonic Systems and Technologies Conference, held from November 18-22, 1996 in Norfolk, VA. There is a student paper on this system: AIAA-96-4580 A Hypersonic Attack Platform: The S3 Concept J. Bertin, USAF Academy, Colorado Springs, CO, USA; S. Matthews, T. McIntyre, J. Taylor, R. Williamson, J. Boehm, B. Rasmussen, A. Sitler, and G. Wyse, U.S. Air Force Academy, USAF Academy, CO, USA It looks like it's worth a look to me! Larry ------------------------------ From: wings@sky.net (Wayne Busse) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:04:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, >From: larry@ichips.intel.com >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:02:27 -0800 >To: skunk-works@mail.orst.edu >Subject: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, from the >USAF 2025 study > Aerial Strike Systems > A Hypersonic Attack Platform: The S3 Concept > >It looks like it's worth a look to me! > >Larry The concept has been around a while, and was addressed in a paper published in '93 or '94 called "Black Horse: One Stop to Orbit", by Robert M. Zubrin and Mitchell Burnside Clapp. The vehicle, (which bears some resemblance to the "Aurora" as reported) is a hybrid, turbofan/rocket-boosted vehicle, that is single-stage-to orbit capable with a 1000lb. payload. Here is a brief excerpt from the paper, which may be found at: http://www.im.lcs.mit.edu/bh/analog.html ...Within the military sphere, APT vehicles could be used for a number of interesting applications, many of which are enhanced by the ability of an APT to bounce out of the atmosphere after an initial reentry. This would allow it to drop in over a designated area from space at hypersonic (Mach 10-20) velocities, release a payload, and then pop out of the atmosphere and get away to space... Robert M. Zubrin and Mitchell Burnside Clapp Black Horse may already be flying, for all we know. Wayne Busse wings@sky.net wbusse@johnco.cc.ks.us http://www.sky.net/~wings ------------------------------ From: jaz5@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:49:37 -0800 Subject: New Book?-Flight Testing at Edwards I just got my copy of Flight Testing at Edwards, 'Flight Test Engineers Stories 1946-1975'.(maybe this has been mentioned before?) Its very interesting. 235 pages of stories and adventures, some silly, some sad, some exciting. They tell of a heliocopter test where the pilot jumped out his door to parachute down, but the copilot had to climb trhough the broken windshield to get out. The time they were doing braking tests on the Hustler bomber and the Engineer requested they replace the fuel in the main tanks with water, when the plane stopped, the tires were on fire, and the fuel(water) overflowed the tank and sprayed onto the tires. Some of it is funny, one of the pilots hated the color of paint on the early lifting body planes, so while he was in the air, they painted his car in that color. Another account is while trying to do an air-to-air refueling, a hydraulic leak coated their windshield with fluid and they couldn't see, so they talked the fuel ship into giving them a quick spurt of aviation fuel from the boom, which cleared their windshield. One day they wanted to show their wives that testing was safe, so they took them out and showed them a rocket sled. The sled shot down the track, then they took the wives home. What the wives didn't find out was that the sled disintegrated part way down the track. Lots of stories like this, what went wrong often with some intersting details as to why it went wrong. A lot of aircaft are covered, some intersting things are noted, comments you might never hear are printed, anecdotes, tips, info, etc. A good read for anyone interested in the subject. You can order from the Edwards Museum Gift Shop at 805-277-8050. Around $15.00 plus shipping (No tax!) The book came with some flyers on the Air Force Flight museuma t Edwards and the Blackbird Park with an A-12 and an SR-71A on display at Plant 42 in Palmdale. ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:53:50 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform, from the USAF 2025 study On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 larry@ichips.intel.com wrote: > AIAA-96-4580 > A Hypersonic Attack Platform: The S3 Concept > J. Bertin, USAF Academy, Colorado Springs, CO, USA; S. Matthews, T. McIntyre, > J. Taylor, R. Williamson, J. Boehm, B. Rasmussen, A. Sitler, and G. Wyse, > U.S. Air Force Academy, USAF Academy, CO, USA > > It looks like it's worth a look to me! Indeed. I found the conference webpage at and just about shorted my keyboard by drooling over it. Well, it's just been concluded, I can't afford to register, and even if I could, I couldn't afford the air ticket. Any idea if any of these papers will make it online? - --Brett ------------------------------ From: "felipe barcellos" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 01:51:11 -0200 Subject: camberra how much of the tecnologies used in u2 came from that used on the = camberras with large wings? they're look very similiar.. sorry by the bad speech Felipe Barcellos ------------------------------ From: "Ori" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 08:32:57 MGT-200 Subject: New home for list I can put the list on this server. If no one has objections i'll start working on it. Everyone on the list will have to resubscribe. reply ASAP so that we can move before this list closes down. Ori Zakin ______________________________________________________________________ Ori Zakin http://www.makash.ac.il/students/2/orihp.htm(temporarily down) oriz@www.makash.ac.il - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Frank Markus" Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:25:09 -0500 Subject: Re: New home for list I would probably be possible (and much easier) for the current subsciption list to be sent to the new list admisistrator. - ---------- > From: Ori > To: skunk-works@mail.orst.edu > Subject: New home for list > Date: Thursday, November 28, 1996 3:32 AM > > I can put the list on this server. If no one has objections i'll > start working on it. Everyone on the list will have to resubscribe. > reply ASAP so that we can move before this list closes down. > > Ori Zakin > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Ori Zakin > http://www.makash.ac.il/students/2/orihp.htm(temporarily down) > oriz@www.makash.ac.il > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Thu, 28 Nov 96 11:41:24 EST Subject: RE: Long Wings Canberra/U-2 > From: "felipe barcellos" > Subj: camberra > > how much of the tecnologies used in u2 came from that used on the > camberras with large wings? > they're look very similiar.. An opinion: Very little, both aircraft are of roughly the same time period. Jay Miller gives a excellent breakdown of the development of both in his book on the U-2. He answers your question in fine detail. (Lockheed U-2: Jay Miller Chapter 1-2 ) ( AeroFax ISBN: 0-942548-04-3 softcover ) ( ISBN: 0-942548-05-1 hardcover ) and the idea of long wings was even known during WWII, Rawnsley & Wright in their book "Night Fighter" talk about development of a varient of the Mosquito (Mark XV) as well as the Westland Welkin, both according to the book were an attempt to go after the high flying German Junkers 86P, which flew too high for normal British fighters to get at. ( Night Fighter: C.F.Rawnsley/Robert Wright pp: 182-185 ) ( Ballantine Books ISBN: 0-345-31025-X ) - - - - - - John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com *------------------- WARNING: Do not look into Laser with remaining eye ! ------------------------------ From: Dan Zinngrabe Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 03:23:16 -0500 Subject: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video I found the URL for this on rec.aviation.military- someone found a tape of what looks like an AIM-47 being dropped from a YF-12, but not... quite. He needs help IDing the aircraft and missile, and I thought skunkers would be interested. Here's the URL: http://www.mrdata.com/~blakef/mystery.html Dan Z ------------------------------ From: Alejo Hausner Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:44:39 GMT Subject: Re: Concussive force of Laser radiation When a laser is focused in the lab, you have pretty good control of the point where the light will converge. You're talking of moving some optical components a few feet on an airplane, in order to get the focal point to land within a few feet of a missile, which is a thousand kilometers away. If I divide 3 feet by 1000 kilometers, I get 10^(-6), so the lens or mirror on the laser platform needs to be dynamically positioned down to the nearest micron! Not to mention the fact that the focal "point" will more likely be a focal "line segment", because the convergence of the beam is so gradual that air will be heated by the laser long before and after the focal point is reached. Alejo Hausner (ah@cs.princeton.edu) ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:24:24 -0800 Subject: Re: Thoughts on the S3 Concept - A Hypersonic Attack Platform ... Larry writes: >>USAF 2025 study >> Aerial Strike Systems >> A Hypersonic Attack Platform: The S3 Concept >> >>It looks like it's worth a look to me! Wayne Busse writes: >The concept has been around a while, and was addressed in a paper published >in '93 or '94 >called "Black Horse: One Stop to Orbit", by Robert M. Zubrin and Mitchell >Burnside Clapp. The concept in a generic sense yes. In fact, the concept goes way back much earlier than Black Horse and its descendants. Black Horse is just one of very many hypersonic conceptual designs that have been done in the past almost 40 years! But the AFA paper addressed a specific conceptual design, that which was mentioned in the Aug. 1996 USAF 2025 report. Since the available overview on USAF 2025 didn't go into what the conceptual specs of S3 were (if USAF 2025 even specified them), it is interesting to see a competent paper (John Bertin is an authority on hypersonics in the US as measured by the fact that he is an author of a very recent AIAA published book on the subject) that addresses the USAF 2025 S3 concept. I still believe this paper deserves a look. Larry ------------------------------ From: Matt Starnes Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:18:20 -0600 Subject: Question This is my first post to this list, and I've only been reading into aircraft and their history for about the last two years, so I'm kind of a newbie in all of this. I also don't know if this post is appropriate or not, so please let me know if there is somewhere else I should put it. About seven years ago I beleive, MicroProse came out with a game based on a stealth bomber in development called the F-19. I was wondering if this was in fact a real experimental plane or just a design that got switched to the F-117. I am very curious about this plane. In a show on the Discovery Channel about the Roswell Incident (not to bring UFO's into this discussion) a man had a picture he'd drawn in the 1940's or 50' of a UFO that was captured that looked exactly to a T like the F-19 in the MicroPose game. I have heard that the F-19 was a real plane, but I figured this mailing list would know. Thank you for your time. Maudib ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Mon, 2 Dec 96 14:00:06  Subject: re: Question Testor had a mythical model kit called the "F-19" and an electronics company (I think Loral or Sanders but I'm not sure) used the same design in their advertising. It was a made up aircraft. I suspect Microprose is doing teh sme thing. Art Hanley Despite what you might want to Believe, none of any of the above Even remotely has anything to do With my employer. ------------------------------ From: Dave Cox Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:54:20 -0700 Subject: Skunky AvLeak item From Dec 2, pg 17 "A loud roar from what was believed to be a still-secret aircraft taking off from Palmdale airport in southern California woke Lancaster/Palmdale residents about 6:00 AM on Nov 25. An overcast precluded visual identification of the noise-maker. One veteran aerospace profgessional described the engine noise as rocket-like, but with an "edge on it - like jagged pieces of metal scraping together. In my 40 years here, I've never heard anything like it." The joint civil-military airport is home to Lockheed Martin's "Skunk Works", Northrup-Grumman's B-2 production site and Rockwell's B-1 facility." ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:10:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunky AvLeak item On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Dave Cox wrote: > precluded visual identification of the noise-maker. One veteran > aerospace profgessional described the engine noise as rocket-like, > but with an "edge on it - like jagged pieces of metal scraping > together. In my 40 years here, I've never heard anything like it." Hmmm, look like he is describing a engine edge similar to the Pratt & Whitney low observable axisymmetric nozzle (LOAN). There is a picture of it in AW&ST November 25, 1996 p. 26. The aircraft must be flying pretty low to see the edge of the nozzle or he has eyes of a eagle... May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Mon, 2 Dec 96 19:35:57  Subject: re: Skunky AvLeak item It was actually me. I KNEW I should have gotten that muffler fixed before I drove that old RX-7 again!!! Art "MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM" Hanley Not even an electron of this message is associated with even a proton of my employer's views, even on the quantum level ------------------------------ From: Stuart McDermid Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 08:30:07 +0000 Subject: re: Question What was really quite freaky was that about the same time there was also another model kit (forget the actual manufacturer). This kit was apparently a "Mig-117" and looked extrodinarily like the F117. I actually bought the kit but have since lost it. (Sigh) Stuart At 14:00 02/12/96, ahanley@usace.mil wrote: >Testor had a mythical model kit called the "F-19" and an electronics company (I >think Loral or Sanders but I'm not sure) used the same design in their >advertising. It was a made up aircraft. I suspect Microprose is doing teh sme >thing. > > > Art Hanley > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart McDermid, UKERNA, Operations Group, Atlas Centre, Chilton, Didcot, OXON, OX11 0QS. Voice: (01235) 822 231 Fax: (01235) 822 399 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "ATM is simply X.25 on Fast Forward" - Anon ------------------------------ From: "Frank Markus" Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 03:58:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Skunky AvLeak item Sounds VERY observable! I thought that 'low observable' included sound ... or is that incorrect? If an aircraft wakes everyone in its flightpath, it has been observed -- or doesn't sound count? - ---------- > From: Wei-Jen Su > To: Dave Cox > Cc: skunk-works@mail.orst.edu > Subject: Re: Skunky AvLeak item > Date: Monday, December 02, 1996 10:10 PM > > > > On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Dave Cox wrote: > > > precluded visual identification of the noise-maker. One veteran > > aerospace profgessional described the engine noise as rocket-like, > > but with an "edge on it - like jagged pieces of metal scraping > > together. In my 40 years here, I've never heard anything like it." > > Hmmm, look like he is describing a engine edge similar to the > Pratt & Whitney low observable axisymmetric nozzle (LOAN). There is a > picture of it in AW&ST November 25, 1996 p. 26. > The aircraft must be flying pretty low to see the edge of the > nozzle or he has eyes of a eagle... > > May the Force be with you > > Su Wei-Jen > E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu > wjs@webspan.net > > ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 08:34:24 -0800 Subject: Re:Re: Question Comments by : Art Hanley@IM@SPK Date : Tuesday, December 3, 1996 8:33:49 Forwarded to : internet[skunk-works@mail.orst.edu] -------------------------- [Original Message] ------------------------- To : smtp@SPKSYS12@Servers[] Cc : internet[] From : Art Hanley@IM@SPK Subject : Re:Re: Question Date : Tuesday, December 3, 1996 at 8:31:40 am PST - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks, Patrick, for that greater detail. BTW, after the F-117's true design was revealed, those Congressfolks never apologized to Lockheed and others for their accusations of poor security. Art "Dances with Words" Hanley Honest! These are only My opinions! Don't even Think that they represent whatever it is my employers may think about whatever it may be that I've written this time ------------------------------ From: gregd@cambertx.com (Greg Fieser) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 09:52:32 PST Subject: F-19 kits and PC sims Stuart McDermid wrote: > > What was really quite freaky was that about the same time there was > also another model kit (forget the actual manufacturer). This kit > was apparently a "Mig-117" and looked extrodinarily like the F117. > > I actually bought the kit but have since lost it. (Sigh) > > Stuart > ahanley@usace.mil wrote: > Testor had a mythical model kit called the "F-19" and an electronics > company (I think Loral or Sanders but I'm not sure) used the same > design in their advertising. It was a made up aircraft. I suspect > Microprose is doing teh sme thing. > > > Art Hanley Microprose re-released the F-19 PC 'simulation' as F-117 shortly after the F-117 'came out'. I never saw the graphics for the F-19 version, but the F-117 version had a fairly accurate (geometrically speaking) rendition of the F-117 as we know it today. As far as scale models go, it was rumored that Revell-Germany was set to release an 'F-19' kit in the mid/late '80s, but was 'convinced' not to... although I never saw one, I remember an ad that showed something similar to what was being depicted in ads by Loral at the time. The 'Loral' version of the 'F-19' was released in kit form by Monogram (1/48th scale, kit #5824 and 1/72nd scale, kit #1128). This is the version of the F-19 that looked like a manta ray (or maybe the RAF's Vulcan after Salvador Dali finished with it. :) Testors (teamed with Italeri) released an 'F-19' kit in both 1/48th (#595) and 1/72nd (#?), and Hobbycraft released a 1/144th scale version (#1115). The Testor/ Italeri/Hobbycraft versions looked like a 'chined' fuselage with the outer wing panels of an SR-71 (sort of). The kit literature made all sorts of claims about accuracy and included little tidbits of stealth technology (RAM, cooled exhaust, etc.) and made *lots* of money for Testor. Testor/Italeri followed up on the 'F-19' kit with what they called a 'MiG-37' (1/48th #502, 1/72 #?). The airplane kit was faceted, but looked nothing like the F-117, and did not incorporate 'aligned facets' as the F-117 did. The MiG-37 kit literature included a rather humorous comment that I'll try to quote from memory: "Since the USSR does not possess the highly complex manufacturing capabilities the US used in the curved design of the F-19, they had to resort to crude, flat panels of RAM to accomodate the poor manufacturing techniques in their own country and still achieve a stealthy design..." Hmmmm. I wish I had the actual release dates on these kits to put them into historical context. - ------------------------------------- Greg Fieser 12/3/96 gregd@cambertx.com 9:52:32 AM (aka habu@why.net) - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: gregd@cambertx.com (Greg Fieser) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 10:43:56 PST Subject: A-12 prototype viewing The Aero Club of Texas will meet Thursday, Dec 5th, 6:30 PM at the Lockheed Martin facility (formerly General Dynamics) to view the full scale mockup of the A-12 Avenger II (aka "Flying Dorito"). Although the mockup has been displayed publicly before, it was always 'roped off'. On this visit, access will be provided to view the cockpit (canopy open), which has reportedly been restored to represent the 'final' configuration for the prototype. *NO* cameras will be allowed since the site is still an active military facility (as Air Force Plant #4, which is shared with (the former) Carswell AFB). Also on display will be the Convair B-36 restoration project, CAF's B-24 'Diamond Lil', a Lockheed T-33 and a Vultee BT-13. The B-36 restoration is in a hanger (Run Station #1, for those of you who know the grounds), and others may be just outside the hanger. I mention this because it starts getting dark here about 6:15ish... Anyone who can make it at this time/date is welcome. There is *no* admission charge, dues, etc. (although we are in the process of our annual 'membership drive' :) For more info, please email me at this address. - ------------------------------------- Greg Fieser 12/3/96 gregd@cambertx.com 10:43:56 AM (aka habu@why.net) - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #731 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". 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