From: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #732 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@mail.orst.edu Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@mail.orst.edu Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 4 December 1996 Volume 05 : Number 732 In this issue: Re: Skunky AvLeak item Re: Re: Question Merger re: Merger Re:Re: Question Re:Re: Question re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video F-117 Re: Merger Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: F-19 kits and PC sims Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Why I haven't answered my mail... Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Re: F-117 Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video re: Question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mary Shafer Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:24:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Skunky AvLeak item As one of those residents, although already awake, it sounded like a U-2 to me. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Dave Cox wrote: > >From Dec 2, pg 17 > > "A loud roar from what was believed to be a still-secret aircraft > taking off from Palmdale airport in southern California woke > Lancaster/Palmdale residents about 6:00 AM on Nov 25. An overcast > precluded visual identification of the noise-maker. One veteran > aerospace profgessional described the engine noise as rocket-like, > but with an "edge on it - like jagged pieces of metal scraping > together. In my 40 years here, I've never heard anything like it." > The joint civil-military airport is home to Lockheed Martin's "Skunk > Works", Northrup-Grumman's B-2 production site and Rockwell's B-1 > facility." > ------------------------------ From: patrick Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 09:03:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Question > ahanley@usace.mil wrote: > > > > Testor had a mythical model kit called the "F-19" and an electronics company (I > > think Loral or Sanders but I'm not sure) used the same design in their > > advertising. It was a made up aircraft. I suspect Microprose is doing teh sme > > thing. > > > > LORAL did indeed hire an artist to draw a conception of a stealth combat > aircraft. Westinghouse Defense Group also had a design drawn. They > were very similar but the Westinghouse design had round engine inlets > and vertical tailfins looking like those from an F/A-18. Both Testor's > and Monogram built versions of an "F-19" based on the LORAL drawing. > The Monogram model took the liberty to droop the wings like the B-70 was > designed to do in flight. All of this activity threw the US Congress > into an uproar over security leaks. The Air Force had to build a scale > model of the then secret Lockheed design of the F-117, deliver it in a > hand-cuffed briefcase to a meeting with the half dozen members of > Congress with top security clearances, and show them the true design of > the F-117 to convince them security had not been breached. > > patrick cullumber > patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ From: tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com (Tom Robison) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:40:01 +0000 Subject: Merger Did ya hear the latest defense industry rumor? Lockheed Martin is going to merge with the Air Force... Tom Robison tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Hughes Defense Communications, Hughes Aircraft Corp, Hughes Electronics Corp, General Motors Corp, God, or my wife. ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 10:41:27  Subject: re: Merger Actually, Bill Gates is going to buy them both. Art Hanley If you think this appears to represent the views of my employers, you're wrong. Just remember, appearances can be deceiving ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:01:49 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re:Re: Question On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 ahanley@usace.mil wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Thanks, Patrick, for that greater detail. BTW, after the F-117's true design > was revealed, those Congressfolks never apologized to Lockheed and others for > their accusations of poor security. Ah, two Wellingtonian quotes on the art of statecraft are appropriate: "Never apologise, never explain." "There is no mistake, there has been no mistake, there will be no mistake." Otherwise I quite admire him (something to do with the name of my city) - --Brett ------------------------------ From: Dennis Lapcewich Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 08:49:36 +0900 Subject: Re:Re: Question At 10:01 AM 12/4/96 +1300, you wrote: > > >Ah, two Wellingtonian quotes on the art of statecraft are appropriate: >"Never apologise, never explain." "There is no mistake, there has been no >mistake, there will be no mistake." > >Otherwise I quite admire him (something to do with the name of my city) >--Brett And I thought it was John Wayne who said ... "Never apologise, never explain. It's a sign of weakness ..." Kemosabe ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 13:34:57  Subject: re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Looks like an AIM-54 launched from an A-3. Art Hanley My employers are in no way associated with whatever is written above, much to their relief ------------------------------ From: David Lednicer Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:06:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: F-117 Someone's mention of "a fairly accurate graphical representation of the F-117" reminded me of something I discovered several years ago. After the F-117 was first revealed, I thought it would be neat to construct a CFD model of the aircraft, to see what the aerodynamics looked like. I figured the modeling would be easy, because the whole aircraft was flat, planar, facets. I went and digitized the 3-vue from Jay Miller's book and quickly discovered that by putting the points together, I didn't get planar surfaces - his drawings were very wrong. I later tried this with several other "accurate" 3-vues and got similar results. Then, Lockheed had an issue of "Horizons" dedicated to the F-117, back in 1992 or so. I got a hold of a copy and discovered that it contained a nice 3-vue. However, it was blue, on a black background, so I couldn't blow it up on the photocopier, no matter how much I fiddled with the controls. I mentioned this to some friends of mine who work at the Skunk Works, when I was down there a month ago and they quickly suggested that I try to scan the 3-vue in and then work with the image on the computer. I haven't tried this yet, but does anyone know if there is a truely accurate 3-vue or 3D model of the F-117 available? - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ From: Wayne Busse Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 18:12:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Merger Tom Robison wrote: > > Did ya hear the latest defense industry rumor? > Lockheed Martin is going to merge with the Air Force... > > Tom Robison tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com > Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN > Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not necessarily > reflect the views or opinions of Hughes Defense Communications, > Hughes Aircraft Corp, Hughes Electronics Corp, > General Motors Corp, God, or my wife. What? After shacking up all these years? - -- Wayne Busse wings@sky.net wbusse@johnco.cc.ks.us ------------------------------ From: MiGEater1@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:57:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video In a message dated 96-12-02 03:39:53 EST, Dan Z writes: << I found the URL for this on rec.aviation.military- someone found a tape of what looks like an AIM-47 being dropped from a YF-12, but not... quite. >> Ummm, sure looks like the folded bay doors from an F-111B to me. That was the aircraft slated to get the AWG-9 and Pheonix system after Navy Secretary Gates cancelled the Douglas F6D Missileer in the early 60's. Third on the list of AWG-9 recipients (from my resources) was the F-14. Comments? John Clark Aviation Photographics ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:03:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Dan wrote: >I found the URL for this on rec.aviation.military- someone found a tape of >what looks like an AIM-47 being dropped from a YF-12, but not... quite. He >needs help IDing the aircraft and missile, and I thought skunkers would be >interested. Here's the URL: >http://www.mrdata.com/~blakef/mystery.html This is definitely an AIM-47A being launched from a YF-12A. Some of this footage can be found in the video "Kelly's Way", available at the Blackbird Airpark gift shop in Palmdale, CA, and at the Lockheed Employees Recreation Club (LERC) gift shop, also in Palmdale, CA -- or from their Web site at: , for just $6.99. The 'grey' color is bare titanium, and (at least 934 and 935) were originally painted only partially black, like the CIA A-12s. Also, the AIM-54 Phoenix has considerably shorter strakes than the AIM-47 Falcon; the XAIM-54 had even shorter ones. For more photos of A-12s and YF-12s see also Jay Miller's book "Skunk Works" and James Goodall's book "SR-71 Blackbird" and others, a list of which can be found on my home page at: - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 17:25:57  Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Geez... Thanks to Andreas I've got an entire omlet to get off my face! I think I'm just going to go back to driving old RX-7s around Palmdale early in the morning. Art "pass the pepper" Hanley Not even an electron of this message is associated with even a proton of my employer's views, even on the quantum level ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 17:04:36  Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video After figuring out a way to blow up one of those images, I'm going to switch my vote to go along with John. If you think about it, that's the most logical choice. Excuse me while I fry up some bacon to go along with the egg on my face. HISTORICAL MISSILE TRIVIA I don't believe the AWG-9 and Phoenix came from the Missileer, though. The weapon for the Missileer was the AAM-N-10 Eagle, and it was to be a two stage missile. It never flew. The fire control was, I believe, to have been built by Westinghouse. The AIM-54 was a child of the AIM-47 from the F-12, and grandchild of the GAR-9 which would have armed the North American F-108 Rapier. AWG-9 similarly came from the fire control system of the F-12. Its versatility was dramatically increased when it went into the F-14. Art Hanley My employers are in no way associated with whatever is written above, much to their relief ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:39:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: F-19 kits and PC sims Testors (in Germany sold as Revell/Italeri kit) gave their "MiG-37" also a NATO reporting name: "Ferret E". The 'E' would indicate that at least 5 different versions (distinguishable from the outside) were identified by NATO (or Testors, for that matter). :) The drawing of the alleged "Roswell UFO", was not made in the 1940s! The drawing was made some time in the 1990s (supposedly from memory), and looked a lot like many other contemporary science fiction vehicles, reminding me personally of the A-Wing fighters from Star Wars, mixed with other design features, including some from late 1940s German projects and the Testors/ Italeri "F-19". The guy who claimed to have personally seen and sketched this UFO, sounded (at least in the tv interview on 'Sightings' or 'Encounters'), very much like a fraud -- or like a "fringe type", as Dean Adams would say. :) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: MiGEater1@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:54:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video Art et al, I stand corrected! The AWG-9 went with the F6D but not the Pheonix (according to The Great Book Of Modern Warplanes). The Missileer was to carry the Bendix Eagle A-A missile, as you point out. And 6 to 8 of them to boot. Andreas, do you have any info? John Clark Aviation Photographics ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 3 Dec 96 18:06:40  Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video I think the "Great Book" is wrong. If anything, the ASG-18/AWG-9 would have come originally from the F-108 like the AIM-47 did. Of course, considering my track record today, I'm not taking any bets! Art Hanley Those of you who search for any opinion here that reflects my employers' views do so in vain. ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:22:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video John asked: >Andreas, do you have any info? Sure thing. :) The Douglas F6D-1 Missileer (developed from one of my favorite 'obscure' fighters, the F3D/F-10 Skyknight -- how many other fighters do you know of, that have such important equipment like a cigarette lighter and ash trays for pilot and radar operator included in the cockpit?), was supposed to be the carrier aircraft for the AAM-N-10 Eagle. Douglas received a contract for the development of the F6D-1 on December 5, 1958, which was cancelled before any aircraft were built on April 25, 1961. Bendix System Division of Ann Arbor, MI, won the competition (over 15 other manufacturers) to build the AAM-N-10 Eagle, with Grumman as subcontractor, responsible for the missile body, engine integration and ground equipment. Westinghouse was selected to develop the AN/APQ-81 radar, apparently the first TWS (Track-While-Scan) radar carried by a fighter aircraft, which evolved from the ground-based AN/DPN-53 radar, originally used to guide the IM-99B/CIM-10B BOMARC B to its target. Other subcontractors were: * Pratt & Whitney (TF30-P-2 turbo fan engines (2) for F6D-1) * Goodyear (missile radom -- the AAM-N-10 was actively guided, like the AIM-54, while the AIM-47 was semi-active, like the AIM-7 e.g.) * Aerojet (solid rocket engine for AAM-N-10 missile, supposed to reach Mach 4 even through hail or heavy rain, with a range of 100+ nautical miles) * AiResearch (APU (auxiliary power unit) for missile) * Litton (tactical computer system) * Sanders (targeting system) The Missileer/Eagle weapons system was cancelled by departing defense secretary Thomas S. Gates in December of 1960, mainly because of doubts regarding the expedience of using a slow (below Mach 1) but stable missile carrier platform (F6D-1) with a big, powerful radar (APQ-81) and 6 big, fast, long range missiles (AAM-N-10). Some of the technologies and experiences from the AAM-N-10 and the APQ-81 found their way into the AIM-54 Phoenix and AWG-9 project, as did many GAR-9/AIM-47 and ASG-18 technologies. Sources: * Douglas F3D Skyknight, Naval Fighters Number Four, by Steve Ginter * Die Illustrierte Enzyklopaedie der Raketen Lenkwaffen, by Bill Gunston (German version of a British/US book, but I don't know the original title) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:55:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Why I haven't answered my mail... For those of you who are waiting for an answer from me, let me give a brief explanation as to why it has taken so long for me to respond. Kathryn and I went on a brief vacation last week, were we had some problems, and after we returned I got sick. I will try to answer everyone individually tomorrow. Sorry for the off-topic post, but most of those unanswered mails are from Skunk Works readers, and this is the fastest way for me to reply to all. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Earl Needham Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:33:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video > From: MiGEater1@aol.com, on 12/3/96 6:57 PM: > Ummm, sure looks like the folded bay doors from an F-111B to me. A couple of us at the office thought the same thing, until we noticed how fast the doors closed in the pictures. The missile had only fallen a few feet and the doors seemed to already be closed. I don't know about the F-111B's weapons bay doors, but the F-111D's & F-111F's operated quite a bit slower than that. Earl Needham, KD5XB, in Clovis, NM Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 01:01:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: F-117 On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, David Lednicer wrote: > > that I try to scan the 3-vue in and then work with the image on the computer. > I haven't tried this yet, but does anyone know if there is a truely accurate > 3-vue or 3D model of the F-117 available? > I have a 3D compyuer model of the F-117, it is in .fsd format (for Flight Sim Toolkit), althotugh, I don't know how accurate is the model. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 01:32:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Possible YF-12 launching missile- URL for pics, video I believe Andreas stand correct, if you look at the pic: http://www.mrdata.com/~blakef/mystery-3.jpg You can see that it looks like YF-12. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net I is the Without ------------------------------ From: Jeff H Clark Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: re: Question The model you refer to was called the 'MiG-37' and was available from Testors and Italeri in 1/72 and 1/48 scales. I have it, and I always thought it looked a lot more like a stealth plane than the 'F-19' ever did. What I always wanted to know was whether the design was something a guy at Testors or Italeri dreamed up, or something conceptual from an actual US or Russian aerospace company. Jeff Clark On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Stuart McDermid wrote: > What was really quite freaky was that about the same time there was also > another model kit (forget the actual manufacturer). This kit was apparently > a "Mig-117" and looked extrodinarily like the F117. > > I actually bought the kit but have since lost it. (Sigh) > > Stuart > > At 14:00 02/12/96, ahanley@usace.mil wrote: > >Testor had a mythical model kit called the "F-19" and an electronics > company (I > >think Loral or Sanders but I'm not sure) used the same design in their > >advertising. It was a made up aircraft. I suspect Microprose is doing > teh sme > >thing. > > > > Art Hanley ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #732 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@mail.orst.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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