From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V5 #751 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Thursday, 12 December 1996 Volume 05 : Number 751 In this issue: Re: C-130 Variants Re: More on British Stealth Re: Gray F-117 one last time about models Re: Questions/Problems/the Infamous Mr. Witting Re: Interesting week doing research C130 models Coast Guard EC-130V Archives - wereabouts? Re: More on British Stealth Re: Digest size suggestion Bill Sweetman Re: Digest size suggestion Re: Hey hypersonics NUTS! Listen UP! Re: E-Systems Re: It was Land, not Edgerton Re: C130 models Re: Digest size suggestion/WWW Interface RE: Hey hypersonics NUTS! Listen UP! Re: Gray F-117 Re: C130 models Full archives. See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com (Tom Robison) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:36:29 +0000 Subject: Re: C-130 Variants Within a typically detailed and informative message, Andreas wrote: >I have to admit that I still haven't ordered the Hercules Production List >from Lars Olausson, which probably has all the missing Block numbers, Model >numbers, c/n, and USAF FY-Serials listed. Andreas, you should send the C-130 info you posted to Lars. The new Production list is usually published in February or March, and your post contains some information that may be of use to him. He may respond with a complimentary copy of the production list. Lars is an interesting and willing correspondent, no letter goes unanswered. For the rest of you who may be interested in the venerable Herk, The C-130 Production List is invaluable. Ya can't tell the players without a scorecard, so they say, and this is the best scorecard you'll find. Write to Lars (he's not online, alas) at Lars Olausson P.O. Box 142 S-530 32 Satenas, Sweden The 1996 Production List was $14 US, as I recall, but I suggest you write him a letter first and find out for sure. And don't send him checks. The banks charges in Sweden almost equal the amount of the check. He prefers US cash. Tell him I sent ya... Tom Robison tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Hughes Defense Communications, Hughes Aircraft Corp, Hughes Electronics Corp, General Motors Corp, God, or my wife. ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 17:40:34 MET Subject: Re: More on British Stealth >2 It is believed that it is a prototype UAV, designated HALO and can > perform up to 9G turns. >John Burtenshaw (Fri, 06 Dec 1996 11:01:26 -0100) Jane's Defence Glossary returns: HALO High Altitude Low Observable What's the use of 9G for high altitude and low observability ? Maybe the A means in fact Acceleration or Agility ? And what could be the use of 9G accelerations for an UAV ? Could it be the prototype of a manned fighter ? (I have read somewhere that pilots can put up with about 8G with a pressure suit). J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: MiGEater1@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:51:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Gray F-117 Patrick, Where did you see the gray 117? I heard that one (or more) were operating out of Holloman, but they were a darker gray than the original gray color... If so, was it a Strike Eagle gray? Just curious. Thanks, John Clark Aviation Photographics temporary page http://members.aol.com/migeater1/avphoto.htm ------------------------------ From: Jeff H Clark Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:03:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: one last time about models I was looking at a 1991 catalog from Testors. At that time, they also produced a 1/48 scale helicopter called "Stingbat LHX". The fuselage was angled to almost a diamond cross-section, like the Comanche is. The tail tapered to almost a point, implying a NOTAR system, and the main rotor had three blades that were curved forward in the direction of rotation. The overall shape looks a lot like the 'black helicopters' that AvWeek featured on its cover last year that were supposedly being tested around the Groom Lake area. Jeff Clark ------------------------------ From: "Frank Markus" Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:28:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Questions/Problems/the Infamous Mr. Witting The problems that we have been experiencing are now 'unwittingly' resolved. ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:45:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Interesting week doing research >>Be sure Dan that you check out the brand new AIAA book I posted info about >>last week: "Developments in High-Speed-Vehicle Propulsion Systems". >> >>There are two PDE papers in there that either talk about alternative PDE >>configurations compared to Eidelman, Et. al., or extend the work of >>Eidelman, Et. al. >> >>For example, there is a paper out of Rocketdyne that extends the CFD >>work that Eidelman, Et. al at SAIC did. ... >... >Is that 500 ISP vacuum? Hydrogen/O2 I'd assume from what you said..... Yes I believe it was H2/O2. As far as vacuum is concerned it didn't specify. But one of the aspects of PDE's right now is whether they even need a nozzle! The engines researched in the SAIC research papers didn't have one! They seemed to do well without one, just using the detonation shock wave reflecting off of the thrust wall to scavenge the combustion products. That was one aspect of the Rocketdyne paper in fact, to nail down whether a nozzle is useful or not. >Ever >see a Lockheed thermal management study for hypersonic aircraft done for >the Navy? They explored a "designer" fuel (the name of which I can't >recall- MCH?) which under heat and/or catalytic reation breaks down into >hydrogen and toluene- Yes, "Thermal Management for a Mach 5 Cruise Aircraft Using Endothermic Fuel", by Petley and Jones, AIAA 90-3284. These fuels turn the aircraft into a flying fuel refinery as they cat-crack the fuel (crack - break fuel chemical composition up into simpler compounds using heat (from hypersonic flight in this case) which in cat-cracking (catalyst promoted cracking) is chemically promoted via a metal catalyst, usually Platinum) as the aircraft flies! These cat-cracked fuels allow you to stuff a lot of fuel into a small box plus they aid in thermal management, both good properties of a fuel for hypersonic applications. A very interesting paper indeed, althought I'm not sure how serious they've gotten about endothermics. > which would be a PERFECT PDE fuel- hydrogen for >obvious reasons, and toluene for increased detonation velocity and thus >high frequencies and a cooler running engine for a given thrust. Very >interesting. That's interesting, I'll have to check that out. Larry ------------------------------ From: Hypoxic Wombat Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:23:40 -0800 Subject: C130 models I don't suppose anyone on this list happens to know where I might find a 3d model (dxf preferably) of a C130? I've done a few websearches and have come up blank, although I have run across several nice F117 DXF models in the process... Thanks, carin http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2925 ------------------------------ From: michael.crutch@ukonline.co.uk Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:24:07 GMT Subject: Coast Guard EC-130V Hi all Following the recent postings, I think I can add a little to the intrigue. Following its service with the USCG, aviation press reported that the a/c had been passed to the USAF "for test work". Rumours in parallel suggested that it was classified in nature, and this seemed to be confirmed when I first noted the aircraft at Edwards North Base during the fall of Autumn 1994. The a/c, Lockheed msn 5121 is a model L.382-84E, and was originally built as the final HC-130H for the USCG, serial/tail nbr 1721. The radar was/is an AN/APS-125. It is believed to now operate under the serial/tail nbr of 87-0157, which was originally assigned BEFORE its USCG tour of duty. The designation NC-130H is also now thought to have been assigned to the a/c. Hope this helps Mike Crutch British Aviation Research Group London UK ------------------------------ From: mrousell@cix.compulink.co.uk (Mark Rousell) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 23:43 GMT0 Subject: Archives - wereabouts? Are the Skunk Works archives still available anywhere? - i.e. Back issues of the list and digest. ________ » Mark « ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 16:38:31  Subject: Re: More on British Stealth It's my understanding that HALO stands for High Agility Low Observable, and is a designator for a series of projects some of which may come to fruition, some may not. Art Hanley Those that seek to find a relationship between what I've written here and what my employer may believe, seek something that can't be found. ------------------------------ From: FSalles@trip.com.br (Felipe Salles) Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 06:17:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Digest size suggestion ConsLaw@aol.com wrote: > > While there are administrative changes going on with the list & digest, I'd > like to make a suggestion. If the size of the Digest can be set, I would > suggest that the size be just under 32k. (SNIP) > slow. This would only marginally be improved by a slight decrease in file > size. > Does anyone second my suggestion? > It's fine, but why not keep the digest in HTML format for future browsing instead of e-mailing it around to every body? Wouldn't it be simpler this way? Felipe Salles ------------------------------ From: James Easton <100626.2242@CompuServe.COM> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 08:08:52 -0500 Subject: Bill Sweetman If anyone can provide a contact address, tel/fax no. or e-mail address for Bill Sweetman, it would be much appreciated if they would e-mail me accordingly. James. Internet; 100626.2242@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: georgek@pmihwy.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:25:31 GMT Subject: Re: Digest size suggestion On Wed, 15 May 1996 06:17:10 -0700, you wrote: >ConsLaw@aol.com wrote: >> >> While there are administrative changes going on with the list & digest, I'd >> like to make a suggestion. If the size of the Digest can be set, I would >> suggest that the size be just under 32k. (SNIP) >> slow. This would only marginally be improved by a slight decrease in file >> size. >> Does anyone second my suggestion? >> >It's fine, but why not keep the digest in HTML format for future >browsing instead of e-mailing it around to every body? Wouldn't it be >simpler this way? > >Felipe Salles > The digest is not in HTML format. Its a standard text message. There is no HTML WWW interface to this list, and due to the apparently large number of folks who read mail via a text interface, I dont see it occuring soon. Not to mention the work on this end. George ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:18:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Hey hypersonics NUTS! Listen UP! It's $30, according the Deborah at Waldenbooks, to whom I'm talking right now. Six to eight weeks to get it, by the way. This is quite a coincidence--I just saw a copy of this book on a co-worker's desk this morning. I wrote down the author and title so that I could order it. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Brett Davidson wrote: > Actually, I can make a recommendation for another book that may be of > interest. The title is a bit confusing - on the cover it says "Space > Shuttle, The History of Developing the National Space Transportation > System Through STS-75" but the title page misses "Space Shuttle." > > Author and publisher is Dennis R Jenkins of Indian Harbour Beach, Florida > > Price was NZ$ 56-00. Expect 2/3 that US$ ? Half that in pounds? Very > reasonable anyway, it could sell for double that. ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:42:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: E-Systems However, E-Systems has never ever been entirely skunky. We've had them here as contractors, working in totally unclassified areas, for example. I think that 60 Minutes show was about a USAF project, any way. I didn't watch it (never do) but the discussion at the time pointed toward a USAF project, not NSA. Virtually all contractors will work on anything, no matter what their core business is. Regards, Mary PS. The existance of the NSA was classified until just a few years ago. MFS Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Aaron Jacob Jacobovits wrote: > E-Systems used to be much skunkier than it is now. I remember reading in > a book called "The Puzzle Palace" by James Bamford that it had EXTREMELY > close ties to the National Security Agency (NSA), and probably still does > today. I believe there was some mention of it actually being a corporate > offshoot. If anybody cares about ELINT stuff I could post a short > description of their joint projects. I would need to reread that chapter > first, and that would have to wait until after finals. > I also recall watching an episode of 60 minutes a few years ago that > dealt with an E-Systems employee who had some quarrell with the company, > or possibly had been killed (I wish I could remember). The whole thing > revolved around one of their heavily classified projects. I was > dissapointed that 60 minutes didn't mention the NSA even once in their > report. Especially because this was before they were acquired by Raytheon. > Since then I have not had as much faith in their reporting. > > Aaron Jacobovits > Undergrad Aersopace Engineering, University of Michigan. > Washington DC native. > ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 15:58:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: It was Land, not Edgerton Well, I wasn't guffawing, but I was giggling. Edwin Land doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves (deserved?). He did a lot more than invent instant photography. OK, what color is an F-117? Hint: "black" isn't correct. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, patrick wrote: > I posted several days ago that I thought Dr. Edgerton of EG & G was the > inventor of the U-2 photo optics system. After that I could hear the > guffaws all the way from the Skunkworks. According to William E. > Burrows in "Deep Black" the type B camera was built by the Hycon Corp. > of Southern California based on a design by Harvard astronomer James G. > Baker and Dr. Edwin H. Land of the Polaroid Co. Sorry for the > misinformation. > > For future reference, I know nothing about U-2's and even less about > Blackbird's. But I can tell you what color an F-117 is. > > patrick cullumber > patrick@e-z.net > "I hate that when that happens" > > ------------------------------ From: gregd@cambertx.com (Greg Fieser) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 14:51:05 PST Subject: Re: C130 models Hypoxic Wombat wrote: > > I don't suppose anyone on this list happens to know where I > might find a 3d model (dxf preferably) of a C130? I've done a few > websearches and have come up blank, although I have run across > several nice F117 DXF models in the process... > Try Viewpoint Datalabs at http://www.viewpoint.com Navigating their site isn't all that intuitive, but they do have several C-130 models to choose from (er, pay for). The link on that page to Avalon is a repository for "free" model data sets... - ------------------------------------- Greg Fieser 12/12/96 gregd@cambertx.com 2:51:05 PM (aka habu@why.net) - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: georgek@pmihwy.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:03:03 GMT Subject: Re: Digest size suggestion/WWW Interface >>The digest is not in HTML format. Its a standard text message. There >>is no HTML WWW interface to this list, and due to the apparently large >>number of folks who read mail via a text interface, I dont see it >>occuring soon. Not to mention the work on this end. >> >>George >> >Hi George, > >I have a couple of doubts: > >1)How does the compiling of the Digest work? Cut & Paste? Or do you have >some script doing the work? Its built into the majordomo list package and come out as a text file that is mailed basically. > >2)Why isn't there a WWW interface to the list? Do you know what are >subscribers using *nowadays* to read this list? How much traffic (MBytes) is >spent for each published Digest? Maybe we could ask the subscribers opinion >on this. I create Home Pages for a living and maybe I can be of some use to >you. Voluntary work of course... :) I don't have exact #'s, but my impression is alot are on terminals, possibly unix or some other type. Fine with me on the opinion option. Catch is having a home for the WWW thing. I'm not so sure here would be the best place to put that. Also, we would still need to provide the digests as text, since many memberes like to receive their digests via e-mail. > ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 290 6745 Network Manager +1 414 290 6753 FAX Infinity Healthcare Mequon, WI USA georgek@pmihwy.com - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDHH2gAAAEEAL9FWaYjjxtHJqFbq/3MAY5o2IUao+XCImBx/Ny+v5T/DVdM lQFo6BV0neJ9/RO1VYaM8Xm003x7HLXB2LqWwqfdxvxlUv4crKDL5iwTEdzbAD2w ZJ4bIjgUNAmK75RnNTaRoqswgEcRRu0XD6H/t7VgoYZKDcU+p5YN47tzGRtpAAUR tBJnZW9yZ2VrQHBtaWh3eS5jb20= =jdUe - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ From: "Hoel, Erik" Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:35:22 -0700 Subject: RE: Hey hypersonics NUTS! Listen UP! Mary Shafer writes: >It's $30, according the Deborah at Waldenbooks, to whom I'm talking right >now. Six to eight weeks to get it, by the way. > >This is quite a coincidence--I just saw a copy of this book on a >co-worker's desk this morning. I wrote down the author and title so that >I could order it. ... chop ... >On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Brett Davidson wrote: > >> Actually, I can make a recommendation for another book that may be of >> interest. The title is a bit confusing - on the cover it says "Space >> Shuttle, The History of Developing the National Space Transportation >> System Through STS-75" but the title page misses "Space Shuttle." >> >> Author and publisher is Dennis R Jenkins of Indian Harbour Beach, Florida >> >> Price was NZ$ 56-00. Expect 2/3 that US$ ? Half that in pounds? Very >> reasonable anyway, it could sell for double that. This is a _very_ nice book - I picked up a copy two-three weeks ago at Barnes and Noble ($29.95 - 20%)! I purchased it for my wife to give me as a Christmas gift. I constrained myself to sixty seconds or so worth of detailed study of the book before I handed it over to her... As Brett and others have mentioned, there is a tremendous amount of information and photographs on a large assortment of hypersonic programs. I was quite impressed after my very cursory examination. Erik hoel@gdscorp.com BTW - I've always been amazed at how very interesting and relatively obscure aviation books can pop up from time to time on the shelves of normal chain bookstores. Someone must be screwing up somewhere in the ordering department. > > ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:41:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Gray F-117 There was a gray 117 operating out of Plant 42 a few years ago; I used to see it routinely since it flew right over Lancaster. Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 MiGEater1@aol.com wrote: > Patrick, > > Where did you see the gray 117? I heard that one (or more) were operating > out of Holloman, but they were a darker gray than the original gray color... > If so, was it a Strike Eagle gray? Just curious. > > Thanks, > > John Clark > Aviation Photographics > temporary page http://members.aol.com/migeater1/avphoto.htm > ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:44:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: C130 models The Lockheed Gift Shop in Marietta sells C-130 and L-100 models. They're very nice and quite reasonable priced. Mary PS. For CFD models, ask in the fluid dynamic or aeronautics newsgroups. Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, Hypoxic Wombat wrote: > I don't suppose anyone on this list happens to know where I > might find a 3d model (dxf preferably) of a C130? I've done a few > websearches and have come up blank, although I have run across > several nice F117 DXF models in the process... > > Thanks, > > carin > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2925 > ------------------------------ From: mrousell@cix.compulink.co.uk (Mark Rousell) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 23:52 GMT0 Subject: Full archives. Many thanks to George (georgek@netwrx1.com) for the info on how to get an index of the digest. The index contains V5.N213 though V5.N750. Is there an archive available anywhere of *all* the posts? It seems a shame to think that it might be lost. ________ » Mark « ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V5 #751 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica