From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #2 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Friday, 3 January 1997 Volume 06 : Number 002 In this issue: Northrop's Old Flying Wings Re: Northrop's Old Flying Wings Re: Picture of the skunk Re: Northrop's Old Flying Wings Re: Picture of the skunk Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 Suntan info found Re: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 SR-71 pics Re: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 Re: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 Re: UFO Military/Government Witnesses Sorry,The LASRE, Linear Aerospike Engine, was mounted on a Blackbird. Photos and info can be found for the Lasre, and Suntan info at: http://www.sky.net/~wings/blckproj.htm Re[2]: Picture of the skunk RE: Suntan info found See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "William J. Satzer" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:00:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Northrop's Old Flying Wings I was told that the flying wings that Northrop built about 50 years ago were deliberately destroyed by the Air Force. Is this true, and - - if so - why was it done? Bill Satzer ------------------------------ From: thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:44:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Northrop's Old Flying Wings Bill, It's not uncommon, unfortunately. Bureaucrats have learned through experience that if a plane, or a tool, or something exists, that decisions could change in the future that will cause that plane or tool to be used again, and the only way to prevent that from happening is to destroy it. The SR-71 tooling was deliberately destroyed, by Jimmy Carter, I believe, to prevent any more planes from being built. A plane that is near and dear to my heart, the F-14, was similarly treated. The F-14 case was simple; there was a small majority of people that wanted to build the inferior (IMHO) F-18E/F, and they voted to cut off all funding for the F-14. As long as the tooling still existed, though, it was possible for some future decision to go the other way. If the F-14 tooling was destroyed, though, well, then there was no alternative to the F-18. Jack Northrop, right before he suddenly died, said that the B-36/B-49 decision was a political one. They would have built his flying wing bombers, if he had agreed to merge Northrup with Consolidated-Vultee, who built the B-36. The Secretary of War at the time wanted to insure that Consolidated would survive, for various reasons (some of them probably virtuous, even). When Northrop refused, the B-36 contract was awarded, and the B-49s were cut up into little bitty pieces. So, two reasons: 1) You don't want these inconvient airplanes around, that could prove (or even argue) that you made the wrong decision. 2) Jack Northrop pissed off the wrong person. Not the first or last time he did it, either. thad - -- Thaddeus Beier thad@hammerhead.com Visual Effects Supervisor 408) 287-6770 Hammerhead Productions http://www.got.net/people/thad ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:13:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Picture of the skunk Well, I've got a very tattered and yellowed copy, which I got out of the LA Times. The page number is missing, but I think it was in the front (A) section. Call 1-800-LATIMES and ask. Or try Lockheed Martin Skunk Works' PAO office (try 805 555-1212 for the number--the city is Palmdale). Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Daniel Adam Singer wrote: > In Ben Rich's book about his days at the Skunk Works, he > mentioned that the day after Kelly died, Lockheed ran a full page ad in > the LA Times showing the "Skunk Works skunk with a single tear rolling > down his cheek." > According to the book, the ad should have been placed on December > 23, 1990. I checked the library and found that edition of the paper but > was unable to find the ad. Does anybody know where this picture can be > found? > > > Thanks, > Dan Singer > > University of Michigan > Aerospace Engineering Department > ------------------------------ From: stevek@Paragon.COM (Steve Kovner) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:45:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Northrop's Old Flying Wings thad@hammerhead.com (Thaddeus J. Beier) wrote: only way to prevent that from happening is to destroy it. The SR-71 tooling was deliberately destroyed, by Jimmy Carter, I believe, to prevent any more planes from being built. A plane that is near and dear to my heart, the F-14, (stuff deleted) Actually, the SR71 tools were destroyed by the orders of Secretary of Defence Robert MacNamara (sp?), probably, but I'm not sure, during the Johnson administration. He didn't want competition with the F-111. It didn't help save the F-111, though. Steve Kovner ------------------------------ From: Ivan Baird Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:28:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Picture of the skunk In the interest of the list, copuld someone who has a chance (Mary?, I think an old yellowed tattered copy would be GREAT) scan it and mail it to me! I would be willing to remail it to anyone interested! Thanks in advance, especially if I get multiple copies.... :-) Anyone wanting a copy should send private e-mail to , and upon receipt of the picture, I will remail it!!! At 5:13 PM -0400 1/2/97, Mary Shafer wrote: >Well, I've got a very tattered and yellowed copy, which I got out of the >LA Times. The page number is missing, but I think it was in the front (A) >section. Call 1-800-LATIMES and ask. Or try Lockheed Martin Skunk Works' >PAO office (try 805 555-1212 for the number--the city is Palmdale). > >Regards, >Mary > >Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com >URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html >Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard >Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... > >On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Daniel Adam Singer wrote: > >> In Ben Rich's book about his days at the Skunk Works, he >> mentioned that the day after Kelly died, Lockheed ran a full page ad in >> the LA Times showing the "Skunk Works skunk with a single tear rolling >> down his cheek." >> According to the book, the ad should have been placed on December >> 23, 1990. I checked the library and found that edition of the paper but >> was unable to find the ad. Does anybody know where this picture can be >> found? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Dan Singer >> >> University of Michigan >> Aerospace Engineering Department >> - -- Ivan Baird, CET University of New Brunswick (at Home) Micro/Systems Technical Specialist ijb@unb.ca SR75Aurora@aol.com Have a Good One!!! ------------------------------ From: Frank Markus Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 20:57:20 -0500 Subject: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 I have seen several stories that stated that a prototype of the engine for the X-33 has been tested on the Blackbird. I seem to recall that Mary Shafer reported that these tests have been delayed. I even seem to recall reading somewhere (AW&ST??) that these tests were delayed indefinitely or even cancelled. Does anyone (who is free to tell) know the status of these tests? And did the thing work? ------------------------------ From: Daniel Adam Singer Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:37:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Suntan info found A friend of mine gave me a copy of an detailed article that talks at length about project Suntan. For those not familiar, it was a project to create a hydrogen powered airplane. When I asked my friend for the source, he sent me the following. I am not familiar with AIAA's filing system, but I hope this is helpful. The article is around 20 pages and includes some drawings. Dan Singer RLS 93-2680 11/7/14 0985815 N79-17001 Suntan National Aeronautics and Space Administration, Washington, D.C. In its Liquid Hydrogen as a Propulsion Fuel, 1945-1959 p 141-166 (SEE N79-16994 08-28) Publication Date: 1978 Language: English Country of Origin: United States Country of Publication: United States Document Type: BOOK Documents available from AIAA Technical Library Other Availability: MF A01; HC SOD Journal Announcement: STAR7908 The largest and most extraordinary project for using hydrogen as a fuel was carried out by the Air Force in 1956-1958 in supersecrecy. The project was code-named Suntan, and even this was kept secret. Suntan was an effort by the Air Force to develop a hydrogen-fueled airplane with performance superior to the secret spy plane, the U-2. The aircraft and engine design for this project is reviewed. Due to technological problems and conflicting technical views over its feasibility and the best way to accomplish reconnaissance, the Suntan project simply faded away and was cancelled in 1959. (G.Y.) Source of Abstract/Subfile: NASA STIF ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:12:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Frank Markus wrote: > I have seen several stories that stated that a prototype of the engine for > the X-33 has been tested on the Blackbird. I seem to recall that Mary > Shafer reported that these tests have been delayed. I even seem to recall > reading somewhere (AW&ST??) that these tests were delayed indefinitely or > even cancelled. > > Does anyone (who is free to tell) know the status of these tests? And did > the thing work? > Last time I heard the project was cancelled due technical problem regarding with the attachment of the engine to the SR-71. Don't know if it is true... anybody can confirme this?? Thanks. And boy... finally the skunkers are waking up after the winter hybernation :) May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "You said it to yourself once (Fox Mulder). You said that... A dream is a answer to a question we have to learn how to ask." Dana Scully (The X-Files) ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:15:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: SR-71 pics Looking information of what book has the best SR-71 pictures. So far, the best I have are "The Untouchables" by Brian Shul and Walter Watson Jr. and "Black Magic" by Michael O'Leary and Eric Schulzinger. Any other book will bit these?? Thanks in advance. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "You said it to yourself once (Fox Mulder). You said that... A dream is a answer to a question we have to learn how to ask." Dana Scully (The X-Files) ------------------------------ From: wings@sky.net (Wayne Busse) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 00:11:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 >On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Frank Markus wrote: > >> I have seen several stories that stated that a prototype of the engine >>for >> the X-33 has been tested on the Blackbird. I seem to recall that Mary >> Shafer reported that these tests have been delayed. > Last time I heard the project was cancelled due technical problem >regarding with the attachment of the engine to the SR-71. Don't know if it >is true... anybody can confirme this?? Thanks. > And boy... finally the skunkers are waking up after the winter >hybernation :) > > May the Force be with you > > Su Wei-Jen > E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu > wjs@webspan.net The LASRE, Linear Aerospike Engine, was mounted on a Blackbird. Photos and info can be found for the Lasre, and Suntan info at: http://www.sky.net/~wings/blckproj.htm I've seen the Blackbird since, and did not appear to have any remnants of mounting. Wayne Wayne Busse wings@sky.net wbusse@johnco.cc.ks.us http://www.sky.net/~wings ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:41:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Was the Plug Nozzle Engine Actually Tested on the SR-71 On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Wayne Busse wrote: > > Last time I heard the project was cancelled due technical problem > >regarding with the attachment of the engine to the SR-71. Don't know if it > >is true... anybody can confirme this?? Thanks. > > And boy... finally the skunkers are waking up after the winter > >hybernation :) > > The LASRE, Linear Aerospike Engine, was mounted on a Blackbird. Photos and info > can be found for the Lasre, and Suntan info at: > http://www.sky.net/~wings/blckproj.htm > > I've seen the Blackbird since, and did not appear to have any remnants of > mounting. It says in the site: File Not found The requested URL /~wings/blckproj.html was not found on this server. Anyway... but, the SR-71 flew with the LASRE?? at Supersonic speed?? Thanks in advance. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "You said it to yourself once (Fox Mulder). You said that... A dream is a answer to a question we have to learn how to ask." Dana Scully (The X-Files) ------------------------------ From: dadams@netcom.com (Dean Adams) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 03:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: UFO Military/Government Witnesses > The following received from Dr. Steven Greer, CSETI's founder and > International Director. FYI... Greer and CSETI are well known new-age/UFO crackpots of the highest order. They do things like having "contact parties" where they go out into a field at night and wave flashlights at passing airliners and play spooky music, and then convince themselves they are communicating telepathically with aliens. Total nuts, totally off-topic for this list. ------------------------------ From: Wayne Busse Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 08:33:01 -0600 Subject: Sorry,The LASRE, Linear Aerospike Engine, was mounted on a Blackbird. Photos and info can be found for the Lasre, and Suntan info at: http://www.sky.net/~wings/blckproj.htm Mea Culpa; the correct notice should have been as follows: The LASRE, Linear Aerospike Engine, was mounted on a Blackbird. Photos and info can be found for the Lasre, and Suntan info at: http://www.sky.net/~wings/blkproj.htm I've seen the Blackbird (#844) since, and did not appear to have any remnants of mounting. Wayne - -- Wayne Busse wings@sky.net wbusse@johnco.cc.ks.us ------------------------------ From: gregweigold@pmsc.com (GREG WEIGOLD) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:55:41 -0500 Subject: Re[2]: Picture of the skunk There was someone else on the list who found it in the paper's archives (I think). He was going to get it scanned just before the holidays and send it to a few of us who had responded directly to him. I can't remember who it was but he was having problems scanning it because of the sheer size of a full-page ad! As soon as I get a chance to go through my cc:Mail archives, I'll let you know who it was. Unless he's still out there 'lurking' in the ozone.... Greg Weigold gregweigold@pmsc.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Picture of the skunk Author: Ivan Baird at Internet Date: 1/2/97 6:28 PM In the interest of the list, copuld someone who has a chance (Mary?, I think an old yellowed tattered copy would be GREAT) scan it and mail it to me! I would be willing to remail it to anyone interested! Thanks in advance, especially if I get multiple copies.... :-) Anyone wanting a copy should send private e-mail to , and upon receipt of the picture, I will remail it!!! At 5:13 PM -0400 1/2/97, Mary Shafer wrote: >Well, I've got a very tattered and yellowed copy, which I got out of the >LA Times. The page number is missing, but I think it was in the front (A) >section. Call 1-800-LATIMES and ask. Or try Lockheed Martin Skunk Works' >PAO office (try 805 555-1212 for the number--the city is Palmdale). > >Regards, >Mary > >Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com >URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html >Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard >Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... > >On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Daniel Adam Singer wrote: > >> In Ben Rich's book about his days at the Skunk Works, he >> mentioned that the day after Kelly died, Lockheed ran a full page ad in >> the LA Times showing the "Skunk Works skunk with a single tear rolling >> down his cheek." >> According to the book, the ad should have been placed on December >> 23, 1990. I checked the library and found that edition of the paper but >> was unable to find the ad. Does anybody know where this picture can be >> found? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Dan Singer >> >> University of Michigan >> Aerospace Engineering Department >> - -- Ivan Baird, CET University of New Brunswick (at Home) Micro/Systems Technical Specialist ijb@unb.ca SR75Aurora@aol.com Have a Good One!!! ------------------------------ From: "Hoel, Erik" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:12:02 -0700 Subject: RE: Suntan info found >From: Daniel Adam Singer[SMTP:dasing@engin.umich.edu] >Sent: Thursday, January 02, 1997 9:37 PM >To: skunk-works@pmihwy.com >Subject: Suntan info found > > >A friend of mine gave me a copy of an detailed article that talks at >length about project Suntan. For those not familiar, it was a project >to create a hydrogen powered airplane. When I asked my friend for the >source, he sent me the following. I am not familiar with AIAA's filing >system, but I hope this is helpful. The article is around 20 pages and >includes some drawings. Good info. Another nice source of information on Suntan is in Jay Miller's "Lockheed Skunkworks: The First 50 Years"; there is an entire chapter (of modest size) devoted to suntan. On another topic, does anyone have any info on the aircraft that was proposed in the "other" aircraft manufacturer's [I don't have Miller's book in front of me, though Convair comes to mind - sorry for the omission of details] competitive bid to the original proposal that Lockheed won (that led to the development of the Blackbird)? As I recall, the two competitive proposals were for aircraft of _very_ similar performance capabilities. However, the other proposed aircraft was notably shorter in length than the Blackbird. Erik Hoel erik.hoel@acm.org ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #2 ******************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". 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