From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #4 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 8 January 1997 Volume 06 : Number 004 In this issue: Re: AIM-9X Re: UFO Military/Government Witnesses/1996 Downed Craft Stealth F-16 Digest Archive ?? Digest Archives ?? Sad Skunk Ad Pulse Detonation/Thanks Re: DARPA COPPER CANYON PROJECT AFNS news this evening Re: LA Times Picture address change Re: LA Times Picture of the Skunk U-2 and A-12 (CIA) project veterans See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: betnal@ns.net Date: Sat, 04 Jan 97 20:56:50 GMT Subject: Re: AIM-9X There were actually four finalists for the AIM-9X award, all of which can use helmet sights. Two from Hughes and two from Raytheon. Britain's ASRAAM was dropped earlier (outside of the Marines, the US services have a real mindblock when it comes to buying foreign equipment) and USAF said that Israel's Python couldn't be considered because it was "too heavy" , which has to be a surprise to the Israelis. The US companies' submissions each included two missile concepts with a common seeker. Raytheon's seeker was the more capable of the two companies, with a "rotate to view" head. According to what was published, although this seeker was more capable, the analysis didn't show that it would result in that many more kills. Hughes used a more conventional (and less expensive) developmental imaging infrared seeker which still had a wider acquisition view than current Sidewinders. Based on Government direction, both companies also proposed two missile bodies. The more effective version used new six inch motors. Hughes proposed using the motor from the product-improved model ASRAAM while Raytheon used the motor from Israel's Python IV, the best close-in air-to-air missile in the world. The less capable version basically refurbished existing Sidewinder motors out of stock and added thrust vectoring. What was selected was the Hughes model with the refurbished Sidewinder motors. While the cheapest choice, this has caused some consternation. Some people see it as a sign that the US won't use foreign components under any circumstances. Others feel it might be a sign that AIM-9X may not be a serious program. It's known that USAF isn't enthusiastic about it (they don't control it and have one of their own programs they want to get funded in its place). There is also some speculation that an unknown "black" missile may surface. It could also mean that there is fear that in the current climate, only the absolute cheapest option may get funded by the Administration. Thrust vectoring the Sidewinder motor will improve initial performance, but probably not to the point that could be achieved with the newer motors. For one thing, the missile may indeed make a 30+ g turn coming off the rail, but with the Sidewinder motor may be out of energy for the terminal engagement phase. Certainly it won't be as effective as Python IV and Product Improved ASRAAM. One other interesting note: Israel has let a little bit slip about the Python V, which will be the world-beating missile by the turn of the century. A few years back, the Navy had developed and tested the AIM-9R to the point of being ready for production, when USAF pulled out of the Navy-managed program saying that it didn't offer enough improvement. Apparently, Israel has gotten permission to license or buy the technology for that "not good enough" seeker (it will not be on AIM-9X) for their next generation missile that's only under development! Art ------------------------------ From: "A.J. Craddock" Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 13:33:01 -0800 Subject: Re: UFO Military/Government Witnesses/1996 Downed Craft Actually, given our propensity to shoot these craft down with their occupants (1996 examples: Varginha, Brazil http://www.geocities.com/Cape Canaveral/4025 , or Somalia (USENET alt.soc.somalia and BBC)), leaving name and address for next of kin is not so stupid as it sounds! Tony Craddock ************** At 02:02 AM 1/4/97 -0800, Dean Adams wrote: > writes: >> > > The following received from Dr. Steven Greer, CSETI's founder and >> > > International Director. >> > >> >FYI... Greer and CSETI are well known new-age/UFO crackpots of the >> >highest order. They do things like having "contact parties" where >> >they go out into a field at night and wave flashlights at passing >> >airliners and play spooky music, and then convince themselves they >> >are communicating telepathically with aliens. >> > >> >Total nuts, totally off-topic for this list. >> > >> >> I can see you did not take the time to better inform yourself about CSETI >... > >I see you're not paying attention, since this is all off-topic. >As for being informed, i've read a great deal about Greer and CSETI >(*not* to be confused with SETI or real science), and every new chapter >is filled with more wildly hilarious crackpot antics. For example, when >members attend a "contact party" they must leave behind instructions for >their next of kin on what to do in case the aliens come and take them >away on the Mother Ship. > >'nuff said. (please). > ------------------------------ From: "Ori" Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:52:41 MGT-200 Subject: Stealth F-16 Last week i saw a short article about a new stealth F-16. Does anyone have anymore information about it? Ori Zakin ______________________________________________________________________ Ori Zakin http://www.makash.ac.il/~oriz/orihp.htm oriz@www.makash.ac.il - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: blackbird@TELIS.ORG (Jon Price (PJ)) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 01:47:50 GMT Subject: Digest Archive ?? Just returned from 2 weeks vacation and had no mail from the list. Somehow, I was unsubscribed. Are the Digests still archived? =20 Thanks, - -- ************************************************** Jon Price If only Naval Aviators flew SR-71's, I'd be happy. Just imagine. "O.K. 3 wire Blackbird"! A PROUD member of the Tailhook Association. I am NOT known for being politically correct. *************************************************** ------------------------------ From: blackbird@TELIS.ORG (Jon Price (PJ)) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 01:47:53 GMT Subject: Digest Archives ?? Just returned from 2 weeks vacation and had no mail from the list. =46ound out that I had somehow been ' Terminated'. Are the Digests still archived somewhere? Thanks, - -- ************************************************** Jon Price If only Naval Aviators flew SR-71's, I'd be happy. Just imagine. "O.K. 3 wire Blackbird"! A PROUD member of the Tailhook Association. I am NOT known for being politically correct. *************************************************** ------------------------------ From: blackbird@TELIS.ORG (Jon Price (PJ)) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 01:47:55 GMT Subject: Sad Skunk Ad As promised, I was able to get the ad from the L.A. Times scanned and will be e-mailing it to those of you who requested a copy. I might add that in true Skunk Works style, I did it on time and on budget! If you did not receive it, let me know, and I will get it to you. Jon Price (PJ) ********************************************************* You run and run to catch up with the sun but its sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. Sun is the same in a relative way but you're older. Shorter of breath and one day closer to Death. Pink Floyd **************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Maudib Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 09:24:28 -0600 Subject: Pulse Detonation/Thanks Thank you all for your help. ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:01:49 -0800 Subject: Re: DARPA COPPER CANYON PROJECT >I recently came accross a reference to a project code named "Copper >Canyon" which DARPA undertook in the 1980's as an successor to the >SR-71. Not quite correct. COPPER CANYON was a program to explore feasibility of airbreathing approaches to SSTO. It was essentially phase I of NASP. Phase II of NASP was to be component development, and phase III was to be flight testing of test articles. We never started phase III of NASP because we learned in phase II that an all H2 fuelled airplane was too expensive to build right now. This is one of the reasons for interest these days in dual fuelled approached for airbreathing SSTO, for example hydrocarbon or even endothermics for lower speeds and H2 for higher speeds. According to Dick Hallion's 2 volume tome: "Hypersonic Revolution" (Vol 2 in this case), COPPER CANYON began early in 1984 as a semi-black program and ended in late 1985, when the internal NASP program started. Later in 1986 Reagan essentially brought NASP 'out' in his State Of The Union address when he mentioned the 'Orient Express' and forever confused the issue for many people (many people thinking that we were developing a Mach 25 airliner instead of an X-vehicle). > It Appears to have been a project to develope an Mach 5 Spy >Plane. The program was later canceled. Is anyone familiar with this >project. I'm new to this newsgroup and probably missed the discussions >refering to it. Thanks for your input! Lockheed, in public, has mentioned at least one design effort to replace the SR-71, and that was the late 70s effort (it started then) to design a Mach 5 turboramjet penetrator aircraft. Several articles have been written about this effort. I have one about inlet studies for it. In fact, a full nacelle and engine test of an over-under turboramjet for this design was tested at NASA Lewis starting in the later 80's. It was even featured in color on the cover of AW&ST!! - although I don't recall if it was properly labelled as a subscale nacelle/engine test for a Mach 5 penetrator aircraft study. Larry ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Mon, 6 Jan 97 21:01:36 EST Subject: AFNS news this evening This arrived in this evenings E-mail run! Credit: Air Force News Service - --------------------------------------------------------------- 970018. LoFLYTE makes first flight at Mojave Airfield, Calif. WRIGHT-PATTERNSON AFB, Ohio (AFNS) -- One day before the 93rd anniversary of the Wright brothers' 12-second flight at Kitty Hawk, N.C., a small, remotely-piloted model of a hypersonic flight vehicle made its maiden, 34-second flight on the opposite side of the country. LoFLYTE, for Low Observable Flight Test Experiment, is a 100 inch-long replica of a vehicle that might fly at Mach 5.5. Its first flight Dec. 16 was from Mojave Airfield, Calif. Managed by Wright Laboratory here in a partnership with NASA, the wedge-shaped LoFLYTE vehicle took off at about 11 a.m. PST, reached an altitude of about 150 feet, and made a 180-degree turn before experiencing some flight control anomalies causing its ground-based operator to land it "wheels up" on sand alongside the runway. The 80-pound LoFLYTE vehicle experienced "little damage," according to Dick Culpepper, assistant to the director of aerospace transportation for NASA Langley. "We had what we consider a successful flight. We're very pleased." The flight marked the first time a waverider concept vehicle has taken off under its own power. Waverider vehicles are triangular- shaped platforms designed to "surf" on the high-pressure field created by the vehicle's bow shock. A bow shock is the shock wave that comes from the front of a vehicle when it travels faster than the speed of sound. Born from research in the X-30 National Aero-Space Plane program, which also was managed at Wright-Patterson, vehicles derived from the LoFLYTE research project could be used as hypersonic transports and satellite launchers. NASA is interested in the waverider's neutral network for its Hyper X program, a Mach 10, lifting body projected as an ultrafast atmospheric vehicle or the first stage of a two-stage launch vehicle. Until now, little has been known about the flight characteristics of the LoFLYTE design. The vehicle's engine is a micro gas turbine engine about the size of a 3-pound coffee can. In its current configuration, it can provide about 42 pounds of thrust. "We tested some of the engine's characteristics with an F-16 scaled model near Oshkosh, Wis., last year," said Dr. Kervyn Mach, an aerospace engineer with the Advanced Propulsion Division of Wright Laboratory's Aero Propulsion and Power Directorate. The laboratory's Flight Dynamics Directorate also participates in the LoFLYTE program with Charles Suchomel, aerospace engineer, responsible for development of the vehicle's neural network flight control system. Measuring 62 inches at its wings, with a height of 24 inches, LoFLYTE is constructed of fiberglass, styrofoam and balsa wood, and weighs about 80 pounds fully fueled. A precursor to a futuristic, low-cost, Mach 5.5 atmospheric vehicle, the model vehicle won't fly beyond the Earth's atmosphere, but it will provide crucial information about the airworthiness of a hypersonic vehicle in flight just after take off or on approach to landing. Step No. 1 is to determine if the waverider shape is airworthy at such take-off and landing speeds, said Mach, describing the goals set for the six planned flights of aircraft No. 1. Although the LoFLYTE vehicle has two vertical stabilizers, they are removable. It is thought that, when flown without them, as in the traditional waverider concept, the vehicle could become unstable. Step No. 2 will be to install a neural-network flight control system that will learn to keep the vehicle stable. Neural networks allow computers to "learn" something akin to the human thought process. "In this case, it's like balancing a broomstick on the end. A human being can do it for a while, but soon he gets tired and needs some help," said Mach referring to how neural networks will assist in keeping the aircraft stable. Later plans call for a second LoFLYTE vehicle with some significant improvements over the first. The second vehicle, due to be completed before the end of the year, calls for the addition of a Global Positioning System and fly-by-light controls, as well as the neural network. Fly-by-light systems use optical cables to send signals to the vehicle's control surfaces. The neural network will be the same one as flown in aircraft No. 1; presumably it will have "learned" to control the aircraft. If all goes well, it will be removed from LoFLYTE and placed in NASA's Hyper X, which is expected to begin flight testing this spring. Both LoFLYTE vehicles are funded by a number of Small Business Innovative Research contracts used for the design of the vehicle's configuration and flight controls, with the Air Force and NASA funding the program in nearly equal amounts. Additional funding is being provided by the Navy and the National Science Foundation. "We've proven that we can use SBIR contracts to produce a flying vehicle," Culpepper said. SBIR research of neural networks already is being used in the B-2 bomber. Researchers are hoping to contract a 23-foot, metal-and-composite model capable of flying at high subsonic speeds. The first two LoFLYTE models will reach top speed of 250 knots. The LoFLYTE vehicle was designed and built by contractor Accurate Automation Inc., Chattanooga, Tenn. ------------------------------ From: mrousell@teracom.cix.co.uk (Mark Rousell) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 5:29 GMT0 Subject: Re: LA Times Picture > From: mrousell@teracom.cix.co.uk (Mark Rousell) > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 1:1 GMT0 > Subject: Re: LA Times Picture > > If anyone wants I'll put it up on my web-site for all to see. There's > nothing much there right now, so it'll fill up some space! :-) > > ________ > » Mark « Sorry, what I didn't make clear is that I do *not* currently have the picture. I was offering to put the scan up on my site for permanent storage, but I forgot to say that I need the scan emailed to me first! :-) ________ » Mark « ------------------------------ From: PaulMcG@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:09:56 -0500 Subject: address change In case anyone remembers me, my e-mail address has changed from TRADER@cup.portal.com (because Portal stopped providing public Internet access at the end of September 1996). I apologize for not being very active in researching the "black" world lately, but I've been very busy with other things, primarily work, in 1996, including several periods where I was working outside the U.S. I'm trying to catch up with all the e-mail, some of it dating back to the beginning of December. I hope 1997 will be a better year -- a new organization, FROGI (Freedom Ridge Oversight Group, Inc.) was formed in September 1996 to challenge the federal government in court over the legal issues raised by the current secrecy system, the Freedom of Information Act, etc. Paul McGinnis / PaulMcG@aol.com http://www.frogi.org/secrecy.html [military secrecy site] ------------------------------ From: mrousell@teracom.cix.co.uk (Mark Rousell) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 7:39 GMT0 Subject: Re: LA Times Picture of the Skunk > From: mrousell@teracom.cix.co.uk (Mark Rousell) > Subject: Re: LA Times Picture > > If anyone wants I'll put it up on my web-site for all to see. There's > nothing much there right now, so it'll fill up some space! :-) Ok, it's up and available now. Many thanks to everyone who offered to email me the scans! The URL is http://www.cix.co.uk/~teracom/skunks If you have any comments, suggestions or queries please email mailto:webmaster@teracom.cix.co.uk. I hope you find this useful. :-) ________ » Mark « ------------------------------ From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:39:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: U-2 and A-12 (CIA) project veterans Roadrunners Internationale will be holding its 15th bi-annual reunion October 7-10, 1997 at Las Vegas. Membership in Roadrunners is open to all who worked on the CIA's U-2 and A-12 projects between 1955 and 1974. This includes project personnel from government (Rep. of China and British included) and contractors who served at the ranch, headquarters, field sites (A, B, C, G, H, Kadena, Warner-Robbins, etc.) as well as the factory. [This list is not necessarily inclusive, I have probably overlooked someone/someplace.] The reunions feature a hospitality suite (with very reasonable bar prices) where we meet old and new friends from both programs and may view historical displays from both aircraft programs. In recent years, the Flight Test Historical Foundation from Edwards AFB has been represented in the hospitality suite with displays and souvenirs available for sale. There is a banquet and a golf tournement and the past few reunions have featured optional excursions. Some Highlights of Recent Roadrunner Reunions: 1987 - USAF BGen.(ret) Leo Geary gave a talk and presented a long-delayed DFC to Frank G. Powers' family. 1989 - USAF BGen.(ret) Jack Ledford spoke about the A-12 program. Author Chris Pocock was on hand autographing copies of his book, DRAGON LADY, A HISTORY OF THE U-2 SPYPLANE. 1991 - USAF LCol. Barry Horne, one of the F-117 squadron commanders briefed the Roadrunners on the DESERT STORM deployment and operations by that other Skunk-Works product. Torry Larsen, ex-Lockheed, narrated a slide presentation on the transport and preparation for display of the A-12 at the San Diego Air Museum. 1993 - Talks by Bob Gilliland, A-12 and SR-71 test pilot on the early A-12 testing and Bob Murphy of Lockheed on early U-2 activities at the ranch. Tour of Nellis AFB including the Threat Museum (MiG-19, MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-22, SA-2 and other missiles and armor) and the Thunderbirds hangar. Tour to Hoover Dam. 1995 - MGen Mele Vojvodich, USAF (ret), and former A-12 pilot discussed the A-12 program including the first mission over North Vietnam (flown by himself). Col. Tom Pugh, USAF (ret), former SR-71 driver and current Flight Test Manager at the LockMart Skunk-Works gave a talk on the reactivation of the SR-71. Author Jim Goodall was there with his latest book on the SR-71 and A-12 aircraft. There was an optional all day road trip to Palmdale (Blackbird Airpark) and Edwards AFB. Frank Murray, the president of roadrunners and a former A-12 driver has asked me to especially appeal to the U-2 community to join our organization and try to make it to the reunion. Anyone from either project (or the D-21 TAGBOARD too) who is interested is invited to contact the Roadrunners Secretary/ Treasurer: Paul Zobrist 1405 N. Mojave Las Vegas, NV 89101 702-642-5501 If you know anyone who may be elligible for Roadrunners membership, please pass this on. Joe Donoghue Taiwan, commo, 1964-65 jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #4 ******************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". 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