From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #10 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Monday, 27 January 1997 Volume 06 : Number 010 In this issue: Re: "Black" Books F-22 models Re: "Black" Books Where do the Brits test their secret planes ? Re: government reveals sensitive radio information Re: "Black" Books Re: "Black" Books Black Books A12 fuel additive model pulsejet engine A couple of short messages... Re: Low Visibility Paint [none] Re: Re: Low Visibility Paint Re: your mail See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com (Tom Robison) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:37:57 +0000 Subject: Re: "Black" Books Larry Gentile wrote: >My question to the list is what other >books do you know of that cover "black" projects. Richard Bissell's book comes to mind, but I've forgotten the name of it. Could someone else clue us in? I believe this book was more about the history of black programs than current activities. Ernie Gann also wrote a book about U-2 & SR-71 crews, but I've forgotten the name of that one, too. (Too early in the morning, caffeine & nicotine levels aren't up to nominal yet) Tom Robison tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Hughes Defense Communications (Soon to be Raytheon), Fort Wayne, IN Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Hughes Defense Communications, Hughes Aircraft Corp, Hughes Electronics Corp, General Motors Corp, Raytheon, God, or my wife. ------------------------------ From: (Jay Waller) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 9:49:42 EST Subject: F-22 models Can any of the model builders out there recommend a F-22 kit in 1/72 scale? I've been wanting to get one for a while, but wasn't sure which ones (if any) were any good. Any input is welcome (magazine reviews, personal experience, etc.), but it must be available in the U.S. E-mail me direct if you like. Thanks in advance, Jay (is it quiet around here or what?) Waller ------------------------------ From: keller@eos.ncsu.edu Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 09:59:21 EST Subject: Re: "Black" Books Tom Robison wrote: >Larry Gentile wrote: >>My question to the list is what other >>books do you know of that cover "black" projects. >Richard Bissell's book comes to mind, but I've forgotten the name of it. >Could someone else clue us in? >I believe this book was more about the history of black programs than >current activities. Is this what you're suggesting? AUTHOR: Bissell, Richard M. (Richard Mervin), 1909- TITLE: Reflections of a cold warrior : from Yalta to the Bay of Pigs / Richard M. Bissell, Jr. ; with Jonathan E. Lewis and Frances T. Pudlo. PUBLICATION: New Haven : Yale University Press, 1996. DESCRIPTION: viii, 268 p. ; 24 cm. NOTES: Includes bibliographical references and index. SUBJECT: United States. Central Intelligence Agency--History. SUBJECT: Bissell, Richard M. (Richard Mervin), 1909- SUBJECT: Intelligence officers--United States--Biography. Unfortunately, my online library listing doesn't include the ISBN#. I've never read this, but supposedly this one is a good read as well: AUTHOR: Bamford, James. TITLE: The puzzle palace : a report on America's most secret agency PUBLISHER: Houghton Mifflin, 1982. SUBJECTS: United States. National Security Agency. As the subject says, it's mainly about the NSA. As for _Deep Black_, I've read most, although not quite all of it several years ago. While it's a very good, and well researched book, it's also now just over ten years old, and consequently it's content is becoming a bit obsolete WRT current developments. Notably, it has much to discuss about the possibilities of radar-based all-weather satellite reconaissance, and related space-based radar research. Well, according to what we read in Avleak, reconnaissance radarsats have been operational for several years now. - --Paul Keller ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 16:44:05 MET Subject: Where do the Brits test their secret planes ? There is now a rather skunky discussion on the skeptic (not sci.skeptic) group. A question has been asked, where do the Brits test their secret planes ? An American skeptic said it should not be over populated areas, to which a British skeptic answered (yesterday): > The Americans please note, Britain is a small place, without deserts and today an Australian skeptic suggests that it could be in Australia: >>I couldn't resist. Britain's deserts are in South Australia. Maralinga >>comes to mind. Does anybody know ? J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: "A.J. Craddock" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:19:31 -0800 Subject: Re: government reveals sensitive radio information Interestingly, according to author Preston Nichols, UFOs emit an electromagnetic signature at 435 MHz. Tony Craddock ************** At 12:44 AM 1/24/97 -0500, PaulMcG@aol.com wrote: >If you've ever wanted to know how the U.S. government uses the radio >frequencies allocated to it, something they don't normally tell people, take >a look at this Web page: > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/nebbia.html >which explains how the U.S. government uses the RF spectrum from 137 MHz to >10 GHz. This Web page was put up by the Office of Spectrum Management, which >assigns frequencies to various users. > >There are some very interesting revelations. For example, this Web page shows >420-450 MHz being used for new radars to detect low-observable ("Stealth") >aircraft. I had been aware of programs like the one code-named MOUNTAIN TOP >that is run by ARPA (the Defense Department's Advanced Research Projects >Agency) out at White Sands Missile Range, but I had not previously seen the >frequency range listed for these top of special radars. > >Paul McGinnis / PaulMcG@aol.com > http://www.frogi.org/secrecy.html [military secrecy site] > http://members.aol.com/paulmcg/ [home page] > > > ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:58:07 -0800 Subject: Re: "Black" Books My favorites, for giving that 'feel' for a properly run official 'black' project, are the appropriate sections of Jay Miller's "Lockheed's Skunk Works, The First Fifty Years" (now in 2nd edition I think). Look at the sections on U-2 development, A-12 development, and MD-21 development. Also find a copy of "THE OXCART STORY" on the Net. try: http://harmless.rrnet.com/~glen/Blackbirds/oxcart-story.html There are a number of copies of it out there now, but the above WEB site is good because it also contains the story of how the document came to be posted on the Net in the first place. Of course, Ben Rich's book, which you mentioned. The following one seems quite interesting, but I haven't been able to find it yet: Author: Varner, Roy. Title: A matter of risk : the incredible inside story of the CIA's Hughes Glomar Explorer mission to raise a Russian submarine Edition: 1st ed. Published: New York : Random House, c1978. There might be another book entitled "The Jennifer Project". I have even less information about that book. Of course the Manhattan Project would qualify as a 'black' project I would guess. Also the book about ULTRA seems like it qualifies as well. Regards, Larry ------------------------------ From: Ron and Louise Crawford Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 20:02:38 +0000 Subject: Re: "Black" Books A good account no one has mentioned yet is Curtis Peebles, Dark Eagles: A History of Secret US Aircraft Programs, Presidio, 1995. $24.95 at Barnes and Noble. A general history. It understandably only speculates about what current and near future programs might be like. Very readable style. Ron ------------------------------ From: jaz5@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:46:35 -0800 Subject: Black Books Another book ( a little off from skunks works usual) is "Spy Sub" by Roger C. Dunham. It tells the story of the submarine that searched for htelocation of the Russian sub that the Glomar Explorer tried to raise. Not a lot that's skunky in Spy Sub, and its a little tedious at times, but it si a good story of working days on end underwsater searching for a target that only a few people on the boat know about.ISBN 1-55750-178-5 Naval Institute Press. There was a book a few years ago titled I think "The secret history of US Atomic Weapons" A coffe table sized book on the bomb, tons of photos, facts, info, a lot of things most people didn't know. ------------------------------ From: jwp@lubrizol.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:33:26 +0000 Subject: A12 fuel additive An article on Stone's blackbird page http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html contains an article (The U-2's Intended Successor: Project Oxcart, 1956-1968) which mentions that one of Lockheed's breakthroughs on the A-12 was the use of a cesium containing fuel additive which reduces the radar return from the afterburner plume. This got me wondering if there has been any progress in fuel additives to reduce the visibility of condensation trails. Was this also a problem with the high flying U-2 and A-12/SR-71? The recent photos of the "doughnut on a rope" type contrail indicate that the contrail may be a major problem during daylight flights of a "stealthy" aircraft. I remember work being done by the Air Force a long time ago on fuel additives that reduce the droplet size in the contrail and make it "invisible". The most effective materials I heard of were very corrosive to the engines and were probably never used. With the current attempts to reduce other signatures of stealth aircraft, I would expect this to be a hot topic if it has not already been solved. ------------------------------ From: ljpotte@christcom.net Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 05:00:26 GMT Subject: model pulsejet engine apologies for being off topic, but can anyone provide info regarding exactly how to operate an O.S. Jet mk.2 pulsejet/ramjet engine i picked up? Its approx 24" long, stainless steel, glow plug. thanks. Brian Potter ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:21:28 -0500 Subject: A couple of short messages... Hello All, Just a few short messages..... First, I've got some World Airpower Journals, that I don't need so hey who wants them, all you gotta do is pay shipping from Louisville, Kentucky. Here are the issues and the major aircraft article: Volume 1, Premier Issue Spring 1990: F-18,Bear Bomber and F-15 Volume 13, Summer 1993: Saab 37 Viggen Volume 19, Winter 1994: F-117 Volume 20, Spring 1995: Red Stars over Germany Volume 21, Summer 1995: F-15 Volume 22, Autumn/Fall 1995: British Aerospace Hawk Volume 23, Winter 1995: Mitsubishi F1, USAF Special Ops The deal is you have to take all of them, and pay shipping from KY! Second, A friend of mine has written a book on Blood Chits, it will be available in late March. I've put up a small web page on how to get a copy, the address is: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/bloodchit.html, check it out if your interested in Blood Chits! Thanks for your time! Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:38:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Low Visibility Paint I assume that you are referring to _matte_ black paint here? Gloss black paint is much more reflective, I believe. We did a little ad hoc study using gloss, semi-gloss (satin), and matte paint (Imron or equivalent) in white, royal blue, and black for the HARV. We were, of course, more interested in heating effects (not limited to the visible spectrum), but we did find that gloss was better than semi-gloss which was, in its turn, better than matte. I'm pretty sure that this would generalize to the visible spectrum. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Brad Hitch wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Tom Burnett wrote: > > > Is any information available concerning a type of paint purportedly tested > > by the Air Force, possibly (or probably) in conjunction with the SW that > > reflects exceedingly low levels of visible light? I do not refer to the > > $1,200/gallon stuff that returns low RF or to camouflage paint schemes, but > > to a product that is supposed to render objects very difficult to see in > > the visible spectrum. This might include the IR spectrum, but that is not > > the basis of the inquiry. > > > > Tom Burnett > > tcburnett@kuentos.guam.net > > > > Black paint reflects less than 1% of all incident visible light, > re-emitting infrared across a wide range of frequencies. The highest > intensity wavelength emitted depends upon its temperature and closely > corresponds to the theoretical "blackbody". Just absorbing > visible light doesn't make something "low observable". Hot black exhaust > surfaces would make a Sidewinder growl like crazy. You need a nice > polished low emissivity metal surface, like gold plating, to keep > infrared emissions low with hot surfaces. Of course the glint would be a > giveaway then. > > The F-117 uses massive cooling of the exhaust surfaces to keep infrared > emissions down and also hides the hot engine parts by blocking the line > of sight with cool surfaces. You can still get reflections of the engine > parts off of these cool surfaces, however. Hiding and cooling are part > and parcel of classic low observable design. Paint it black and only fly > on moonless nights, when its black outside. > ------------------------------ From: Lee Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:48:12 -0700 Subject: [none] Although I enjoy airplanes (4 years in Naval aviation) I have never ventured further into the mechanics of flight than 'pull back and it goes up!' Now I have a (hopefully) simple question: Is there an easy way to describe aerodynamic drag as it increases with speed? I have heard things like, "it increases with the (fill in the blank)" The 'fill in the blank' has been: Log of the speed exponentially following a parabolic curve and some really stupid ideas. So, is there a simple was to express the increase in drag? Lee __ __ _ Utah Karting Champion (1991 1992 1993) __ _ - ~~ l ~-_ "Karting is the purest form of motor @~~ ------+--------~----____ racing." --- Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) @==/~_~\===|=~======|===/~_~\~~-, http://www.wasatch.com/~racer \ ( (_) ) \_______| ( (_) )__ , send mailto: racer@wasatch.com >~~\___/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\___/~ 1987 Fiero GT Metallic Blue, CS ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Pepper" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:22:13 -0600 Subject: Re: At 12:48 PM 1/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >Although I enjoy airplanes (4 years in Naval aviation) I have never ventured >further into the mechanics of flight than 'pull back and it goes up!' > >Now I have a (hopefully) simple question: Is there an easy way to describe >aerodynamic drag as it increases with speed? I have heard things like, "it >increases with the (fill in the blank)" The 'fill in the blank' has been: > > Log of the speed > exponentially > following a parabolic curve > and some really stupid ideas. > >So, is there a simple was to express the increase in drag? =============================================================== That's easy, , , As a Navy joc once told me, , , , Push stick forward, houses get bigger. Pull stick back, houses get smaller. KEEP pulling stick back, houses get bigger again Dr. Pepper Good ALL the time Well, , , MOST of the time anyway ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:35:47 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Low Visibility Paint On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Mary Shafer wrote: > I assume that you are referring to _matte_ black paint here? Gloss black > paint is much more reflective, I believe. I believe that the RAF uses gloss black on its trainers now because they have found that that is the highest visibility colour. - --Brett ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:39:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: your mail On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Lee wrote: > Although I enjoy airplanes (4 years in Naval aviation) I have never ventured > further into the mechanics of flight than 'pull back and it goes up!' > > Now I have a (hopefully) simple question: Is there an easy way to describe > aerodynamic drag as it increases with speed? I have heard things like, "it > increases with the (fill in the blank)" The 'fill in the blank' has been: > > > So, is there a simple was to express the increase in drag? The basic equation is the following: D = (1/2) * Rho * S * (v^2) * Cd Where: D = Drag Rho = Density of the atmosphere S = Surface area of the wing v = Velocity of the airplane Cd = Coeffiente of Drag. This is function of Angle of Attack, Mach number, Reynolds Number, and Airfoil Geometry. If you wants to know more, I can keep going forever... Replay me if you wants to know more. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "My dad used to fly the same aircraft that I am flying right now" B-52 pilot ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #10 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica