From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #12 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Friday, 31 January 1997 Volume 06 : Number 012 In this issue: Re: RAM covered helmets Re: A12 fuel additive "its offical now" SR-71 Blackbird back in business Book reference Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Blackbird book Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Speed of helicopter blades Re: Speed of helicopter blades Re: Speed of helicopter blades See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:34:51 -0800 Subject: Re: RAM covered helmets >> These "Senior Silk Suits" are also designed to protect the pilot >> when ejecting at Mach 10 at 200,000 ft. >Ah yes, reminds me of of the project I had heard about, code named "Extract >Mickey".. but I'm not allowed to talk about that. Is that the U.S. Army Ranger Orbital HALO suit? Oops! Maybe not! ------------------------------ From: Wei-Jen Su Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:11:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: A12 fuel additive On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dean Adams wrote: > > BTW, I found that F-117 pilot use helmet coated with RAM and > > special stealthy flying suit. Any comment?? > > > > Sounds like another one of those tall tales. I'm surprised they could > even keep a straight face with the "stealthy flying suit" bit! > > As someone already mentioned, the F-117 has a special coating > on the canopy glass to prevent the usual cockpit RCS problems. If you remember what Ben Rich wrote. He mention that the RCS (Radar Cross Section) from the helmet of the pilot is bigger than the entire aircraft. Back then, they didn't have the technology for a translucid RAM. So, what they done is having the helmet cover with RAM and special stealth flying suit. Now, we have the technology to cover the canopy with translucid RAM. But, still, it is not good enough. They still use it (special helmet and flying suit) in real missions. Have you seen real pics of the F-117 pilot getting out or in of their aircraft during real mission over Iraq??? I don't know why this is so hard to believe or even logically try to find a possibility about if it real or not. If you go back to the 80's, when the F-117 is still classified. If I mention that a friend of mine from Lockheed tell me how the Stealth FIGHTER look like: It looks like a box with triangular flat panel cover the entire aircraft (highly non-aerodynamic), look like a diamont shape, looking from the front it is similar to the helmet of "Dark Vader", it is sub-sonic, only carry two bombs, does not have radar, the air-intake is cover, you can not see the exaust, does not carry gun, there is not afterburner in their engines, there is not horizontal tail, etc. You guys will be still laughing for over a mounth!!! Anyway, I will not provide any more information from peoples inside of the Skunk Works. May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net "My dad used to fly the same aircraft that I am flying right now" B-52 pilot ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 21:39:31 EST Subject: "its offical now" To-days AFNS release had this little item. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- 970105. SR-71 Blackbird back in business BEALE AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AFNS) -- The SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance aircraft now stands ready for deployment for the first time since its retirement seven years ago. Two SR-71 aircrews and planes were declared mission ready Jan. 1. "My goal was to bring the SR-71 back quickly, within budget, and most importantly, in a safe manner," said Brig. Gen. Robert Behler, 9th Reconnaissance Wing commander at Beale. "I'm proud to say we've accomplished this goal and we look forward to demonstrating a mobility capability later this year." Mission ready means the Blackbird can fly operational sorties when the Joint Chiefs of Staff determine the aircraft's altitude, speed and sensor capabilities best meet a theater commander's mission need. The SR-71 is equipped with reconnaissance sensors, including the Advanced Synthetic Aperture Radar system that provides near-real time, all-weather, day or night imagery. Congress directed the Air Force to bring the SR-71 out of retirement in 1994 because of the need for a highly survivable, manned, air-breathing reconnaissance platform to provide synoptic, multi-sensor, broad-area coverage. The 32-year-old Blackbird remains the world's fastest, highest- flying production aircraft. It can fly at more than three times the speed of sound (Mach 3), or more than 2,000 mph, and it routinely cruises at altitudes exceeding 80,000 feet (15 miles). The aircraft can also survey more than 100,000 square miles of the Earth's surface in one hour. Although assigned to the 9th RW at Beale, SR-71 aircraft currently operate from a detachment at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. (Courtesy of Air Combat Command News Service) - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Michael Wehner Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:34:48 +0100 Subject: SR-71 Blackbird back in business from the airforce- newsserver: SR-71 Blackbird back in business BEALE AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AFNS) -- The SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance aircraft now stands ready for deployment for the first time since its retirement seven years ago. Two SR-71 aircrews and planes were declared mission ready Jan. 1. "My goal was to bring the SR-71 back quickly, within budget, and most importantly, in a safe manner," said Brig. Gen. Robert Behler, 9th Reconnaissance Wing commander at Beale. "I'm proud to say we've accomplished this goal and we look forward to demonstrating a mobility capability later this year." Mission ready means the Blackbird can fly operational sorties when the Joint Chiefs of Staff determine the aircraft's altitude, speed and sensor capabilities best meet a theater commander's mission need. The SR-71 is equipped with reconnaissance sensors, including the Advanced Synthetic Aperture Radar system that provides near-real time, all-weather, day or night imagery. Congress directed the Air Force to bring the SR-71 out of retirement in 1994 because of the need for a highly survivable, manned, air-breathing reconnaissance platform to provide synoptic, multi-sensor, broad-area coverage. The 32-year-old Blackbird remains the world's fastest, highest- flying production aircraft. It can fly at more than three times the speed of sound (Mach 3), or more than 2,000 mph, and it routinely cruises at altitudes exceeding 80,000 feet (15 miles). The aircraft can also survey more than 100,000 square miles of the Earth's surface in one hour. Although assigned to the 9th RW at Beale, SR-71 aircraft currently operate from a detachment at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. (Courtesy of Air Combat Command News Service) Michael Wehner Wuppertal,FRG PGP- public key available Homepage: - -> http://www.wupper.de/sites/abalkin Medical- links at: - -> http://www.wupper.de/sites/abalkin/MWMedical_links.html Hornet- replay database: - --> http://users.ox.ac.uk/~lady0266/hornet/hornet.html Korean Crisis Replays: - --> http://www.wupper.de/sites/abalkin/F18/filmindexKC.html #hornet: callsign: abalkin - -->http://www.wupper.de/sites/abalkin/squad/squad.html Abalkin's Black- Cats- Basics- Page - -->http://www.wupper.de/sites/abalkin/BlackCats/Primer.html ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 07:21:37 EST Subject: Book reference Recently posted on the naval history mailing list is a list of new publications one of which may be of interest to members of this group. I have not seen the book myself. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Here are some new books from the Spring 1997 Naval Institute Press Catalog >> that may be of interest: >> >> *Spy Flights of the Cold War* by Paul Lashmar 1557508372 (March) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com ------------------------------ From: jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:45:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) This is based on the British TV special(s) produced by the author, Paul Lashmar. Among other events, it covers: RAF missions over European USSR in borrowed USAF RB-45s. RAF Canberra mission or missions over Kapustin Yar missile test center. British participation in U-2 project. SAC RB-47 missions over USSR including one that was nearly shot down over the Kola peninsula in 1954. (hit by cannon fire from a MiG-17) Large scale SAC RB-47 operation from Thule in April 1956 which allegedly included simultaneous penetrations of Siberia by 9 RB-47s on 3 occasions. Lashmar thinks LeMay was trying to start WW III while he knew we still had superiority over the Soviets. When I first heard this charge, my reaction was that - if LeMay had wanted to start a war with the Soviets - he would have accomplished it. However, if the Soviets refused to play, even in the light of the apparent multiple penetrations by bomber-type aircraft that took place in 1956, perhaps Curt didn't dare stick his neck out any further. We should hear more about this story over the next few years as the paper trail for these operations is yielded up by the archives. It's an interesting book. I got my copy from the UK but Edward R. Hamilton in Connecticut is advertising it in its latest flyer for under $24.00. If you are a book buyer, this is a good source. Sells most new books at 30% discount. Also has a lot of bargain books. No phone orders. Sends out a thick flyer about once a month. $3.00 shipping for any size order. Checks only, no credit card orders. I'm just a satisfied customer. prompt service. Edward R. Hamilton Falls Village, CT 06031-5000 (No street address) Joe Donoghue ------------------------------ From: jwp@lubrizol.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:38:21 +0000 Subject: Blackbird book I just started looking at a copy of James Goodall's book SR-71 Blackbird (1995 Squadron/Signal Publications) and I think this is a must have for anyone interested in the hardware side of the Blackbird family. It is only 80 pages long but it is loaded with photos (several per page), including several crash photos and a lot of details of partially assembled Blackbirds and D-21 drones. I have not seen many of these photos in any other book. There are at least 12 pages on the D-21 drone, both with the M-21 and B-52. Joe Pialet ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:17:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) I doubt the Soviets had a scramble-on-triggerhappy capability for their bomber force in the mid 1950s. Even if they had interpreted a multiple airspace penetration as a bombing raid, they might not have been able to cobble up a response till it became clear that we were playing "chicken". -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ From: Brett Davidson Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:07:45 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 jdonoghue@cclink.draper.com wrote: > Lashmar thinks LeMay was trying to start WW III while he knew we still had > superiority over the Soviets. When I first heard this charge, my reaction This is also brought up in Richard Rhodes' "Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb." My copy is at home, so I don't have the ISBN, but I strongly recommend it, as well as his earlier work, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb." Actually, in reference to the recent Black books thread, these can be added to the list. --Brett ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 17:00:02 mA Subject: Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Jay, Actually the Soviets did have a very rapid response capability. One of the things they were always amazingly good at was how fast they could react or moved with massive amount of resources. They didn't necessarily do it the way we would or very efficiently, but you can do a lot when you're willing to throw almost unlimited amounts of money at something, even if it means beggaring your country. They maintained that almost to the end of the Soviet Union. What they lacked in the 1950s was any practical delivery system against the US directly. Art Hanley To those that wouldst query, "Dost thou speaketh for thine employer?", I say thee, "Nay"! ------------------------------ From: freeman@netcom.com (Jay Reynolds Freeman) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:31:17 -0800 Subject: Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) > What they lacked in the 1950s was any practical delivery system against the US > directly. Well, indeed then, it would have taken a prohibitively long time to write the specifications, set the design bureaus to work, produce the bombers, test them, train aircrews, produce enough for a strike, and launch... :-) Hmn, mass-produce-weaponry-on-warning... ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 19:51:36 mA Subject: Re: Book reference (SPYFLIGHTS of the COLD WAR) Jay, What they Could do was move massive numbers of troops into Europe very quickly. They could also put the world's largest submarine fleet to sea in very little time. They also could flush their interceptors faster than we could, even at ADC's peak. They retained their ability to move quickly right up to the end of the Soviet Union. It's amazing what you can do if you're willing to throw almost unlimited amounts of money at something, even if it beggars your country. What they couldn't do in the mid fifties was launch air strikes against the US because they lacked a practical, survivable long range bomber. Art Hanley Those that seek to find a relationship between what I've written here and what my employer may believe, seek something that can't be found. ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 16:58:32 MET Subject: Speed of helicopter blades Sorry, not really skunky, but... Several months ago, a skunk-works subscriber said that the tips of helicopter blades were supersonic, which explained the terrific noise of these crafts (if it were not skunk-works, then it was a sci.space.* or rec.aviation.military posting, but since I seldom read those, there is > 90% prob that it was skunk-works; if not, I apologize in advance). Then coming back home, I said "You know what? These helicos are very noisy because the tips of their blades are supersonic! A brilliant expert from the skunk-works list told us!" And today my son told me "Well, Dad, I have read in the _Grand Dictionnaire Encyclopedique Larousse_ that the tips of helicopter blades are not supersonic, in order to avoid turbulences". Since I looked a bit stupid, I tried to confirm/infirm. I found nothing in the _Encyclopaedia Britannica_. Using search engines, I found an URL: http://www.tc.cornell.edu/Edu/SPUR/SPUR95/Noha/report.html Visualization of Helicopter/Tiltrotor Blade-Vortex Interaction Noise with these enigmatic sentences: "the noise propagation of this source depends on whether the force distribution is moving at supersonic or subsonic speed with respect to the surrounding fluid" "unlike the tip effect mechanism, the acoustic sources responsible for radiation cone noise have locally supersonic relative velocities" Does this mean that, though the tips are not supersonic, something else (vortices?) is supersonic? J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: John Burtenshaw Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:49:23 -0100 Subject: Re: Speed of helicopter blades Hi Not sure about conventional helicopters but the British Fairey Rotordyne had small jet exhausts (powered from the turbo-prop engines) on its rotor tips which were supersonic. The noise was so great that it was rejected for city centre travel - one of its original roles. Cheers John ------------------------------ From: "Bernie Rosen" Date: 31 Jan 97 10:02:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Speed of helicopter blades - --=_ORCL_29731364_0_11919701311105450 Content-Transfer-Encoding:7bit Content-Type:text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I looked in my Larousse, but it is entitled "Larousse Gastronomique" (or some such) and had nothing on helicopter blades. I then contacted a friend who works for NASA designing helicopters and received the following reply: "Hey Bernie! Original helicopters like the Huey UH-1 had blades that traveled supersonically. But, they have since toned down rotor tip speeds because of noise and vibration problems. Rotor blades now typically travel at tip speeds anywhere from 650 to 790 ft/sec depending of the type of helicopter or tiltrotor. At ambient sea level conditions the blades on not moving at supersonic speeds. But, as you may know, when you gain altitude, temperature decreases and so does the speed of sound: a = sqrt (gamma*R*T) where a is the speed of sound, gamma is 1.4, R is a gas constant, and T is temperature OK, so maybe you are not interested in equations. But you get the idea. :-) This is how Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier with the X-1. He gained altitude where the speed of sound was lower in order to go supersonic. So, the answer to your question is: it depends. It depends on what altitude the copter is flying at. It depends on the temperature at the altitude the copter is flying at. But, it also depends on the aerodynamic flows around the airfoils on the blade. Even if the blade is not traveling at supersonic speeds, the air flow as it accelerates over the upper surface of the blade can experience supersonic speeds. Also, you have to consider the relative forward velocity of the blades as they travel, i.e. tip speed + forward speed. Now, when you're talking about noise, that's a whole other ball of wax. Steve's the expert in this area. :-) The noise of helicopters are not just due to shock waves coming off the blades. A second noise generated by helicopters is called blade vortex interactions (BVI's). The bound circulation of the blade trails off into concentrated tip vortices. When these vortices slap into the following blades as the helicopter rotor system rotates, BVI's occurs. This is a very simplified explanation of aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, and helicopter theory, but I hope it answers your question. Alex" And there you are! .-----------------------------------. |^\ ____ | Bernie | | \_____' o o\___ | | (415) 506 2083 |\__=== N1BR _______ `> | WWCS Belmont CA |/ `--~~~~~===v===-v'| |___________________________________| o o - --=_ORCL_29731364_0_11919701311105450 Content-Type:message/rfc822 Date: 31 Jan 97 08:58:32 From:"J. Pharabod " To:skunk-works@pmihwy.com Subject:Speed of helicopter blades Return-Path: Organization:In2p3 Sender:owner-skunk-works@pmihwy.com Precedence: bulk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding:7bit Content-Type:text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sorry, not really skunky, but... Several months ago, a skunk-works subscriber said that the tips of helicopter blades were supersonic, which explained the terrific noise of these crafts (if it were not skunk-works, then it was a sci.space.* or rec.aviation.military posting, but since I seldom read those, there is > 90% prob that it was skunk-works; if not, I apologize in advance). Then coming back home, I said "You know what? These helicos are very noisy because the tips of their blades are supersonic! A brilliant expert from the skunk-works list told us!" And today my son told me "Well, Dad, I have read in the _Grand Dictionnaire Encyclopedique Larousse_ that the tips of helicopter blades are not supersonic, in order to avoid turbulences". Since I looked a bit stupid, I tried to confirm/infirm. I found nothing in the _Encyclopaedia Britannica_. Using search engines, I found an URL: http://www.tc.cornell.edu/Edu/SPUR/SPUR95/Noha/report.html Visualization of Helicopter/Tiltrotor Blade-Vortex Interaction Noise with these enigmatic sentences: "the noise propagation of this source depends on whether the force distribution is moving at supersonic or subsonic speed with respect to the surrounding fluid" "unlike the tip effect mechanism, the acoustic sources responsible for radiation cone noise have locally supersonic relative velocities" Does this mean that, though the tips are not supersonic, something else (vortices?) is supersonic? J. Pharabod - --=_ORCL_29731364_0_11919701311105450-- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #12 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica