From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #27 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Tuesday, 11 March 1997 Volume 06 : Number 027 In this issue: Re: Credible Sport Re[2]: Credible Sport Re: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic (was Credible Sport) Re: Credible Sport Back to the future? Re: Back to the future? EAGLE CLAW Re: Back to the future? X-38 Re: Credible Sport See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 12:07:55 nA Subject: Re: Credible Sport Randall, You ask really good questions. The story that was put out, I believe, was that they used RH-53s because if anyone saw HH-53s on the deck of the NIMITZ in the area, they might suspect what was up (do the blades fold on the HH?). I don't know how valid that is, but that's what the story was. Regarding air refueling, the story there was that since refueling would have to take place at a higher altitude, it might be seen (radar, visual?) and surprise would be lost. I do know that in Vietnam, North Vietnamese MiGs would shoot down rescue helicopters, and they may have been tracking them via the refueling ops. What I've always thought was a good question was the number of helicopters used. The number sent was the absolute minimum that would be needed, given known RH-53 reliability and performance data. There was no margin for Murphy. Originally, Carter and Co. wanted to send even fewer helos until the military finally convinced those inside the Beltway that the mission would turn out to be a non-starter with what they were going to authorize. Art Hanley Despite what you might want to Believe, none of any of the above Even remotely has anything to do With my employer. ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 14:56:23 GMT Subject: Re[2]: Credible Sport ___________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: Credible Sport Author: Bill Riddle at FHU2 Date: 11/03/97 13:08 Among other interesting things, David Lednicer said: "RH-53Ds were used because of their slightly superior performance to other H-53s." That may be so, I don't know about the performance differential of H-43 models. However, I do specifically remember the explanation at the time that RH-53 aircraft were used for OPSEC purposes. The presence of gray painted Navy H-53s on a CV being less remarkable than green Marine ones. I will cross post his note to the Mahan Navy History list for comment. Bill Riddle Army Aviator (Emeritus) ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 15:00:42 GMT Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic (was Credible Sport) ___________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic (was Credible Sport) Author: Bill Riddle at FHU2 Date: 11/03/97 14:45 Comment from the Mahan list. ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic (was Credible Sport) Author: mahan@microwrks.com at smtp-fhu Date: 3/11/97 2:38 PM re: - -snip- > However, I do specifically remember the explanation at the time that RH-53 > aircraft were used for OPSEC purposes. The presence of gray painted Navy H-53s > on a CV being less remarkable than green Marine ones. > > Any comment from the Mahan list? - -snip- - -snip- >> Iranians, the next morning, strafed the remaining helicopters, despite the >> fact they were trying to get around the embargo and buy RH-53D spares for >> their own fleet (yes, the Imperial Iranian Navy bought some RH-53Ds - >> they were the only foreign customer). Rumors have it that one or more >> RH-53Ds survived and are now in Islamic Republic of Iran Navy service. - -snip- It was OpSec in 2 ways: First, presence of minesweeping helos on an aircraft carrier was logical (if unusual) so would not stimulate leaks or rumors among the 6,000-man crew. Second, if Iranians spotted the RH-53D's, they might think they were their own. Carter's defense cuts hurt OpSec: intense helicopter training in the Nevada desert attracted notice because so few other exercises were going on. Obviously something was up. I heard about it IN A HOTEL CORRIDOR 2-3 months before the mission! But IMHO the primary reasons the mission failed were (a) confused mission objectives, and (b) substituting remote micromanagement for on-scene leadership. Both errors were ultimately Carter's responsibility. - -- Michael C. Potter | | potter@artecon.com Artecon, Inc -|- _|_ voice: 619/431-4465 PO Box 9000 >_|__( |/_< fax: 619/931-5527 Carlsbad CA 92018-9000 >_III_ ||/ _III_ |/|_o =-| L/_| _|____L_/_|== ___ ________|____-===L|_LL| -==| .___ | ___. __I____|_[_]_______|_____[__||____[_]_|__|_=====_|\__--+====--/ \_____/|_|__| == 963 / |____________________________________________________________________/~~ ~~~~~~~~~~>>>>>>>> http://www.artecon.com <<<<<<<<~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~>>>>>>>> http://www.inetworld.net/txo <<<<<<<<~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Dan Zinngrabe Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:39:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Credible Sport If people are interested I can find my copies of the official barn dance cards and desk jockey studies that tried to figure out who to blame. Pretty boring stuff, but for the most part full of facts and operational details. If I remember correctly the RH-53s were used- 1. Pave Lows were unavailiable 2. Nothing else that could fit on the Nimitz elevators had the capabilities It's also funny that the Marine pilots on the mission had no training on the RH-53, had never flown in the desert before, and had no idea what the mission was about. All very odd. I beleive the exfil plans were to secure the Mehrbad Int'l by Navy fighter cover and USAF gunship support (as well as 2 "unconventional" psyops plans proposed but never approved), hope the AMCITs from the stadium to the airport, and fly them out to Oman in C-130s, then transfer to C-141s for a flight to Egypt. There is a rather good series of articles currently being published on Desert One in Sodier Of Fortune magazine, a rather good first and second person account. Keep in mind while this is discussed that much of the planning for Desert One was done by people who had never fired a shot on a range, much less in combat- and that is a princliple factor in the faliure of the mission. The follow up plans were for the most part generated by the reborn US spec ops community, as well as later plans to extract AMCITs from other areas of the world. Honey Badger was Beirut, as I recall. The name of the Iran follow up is on the tip of my tongue, but.... grrr Dan ------------------------------ From: Kerry Ferrand Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:00:48 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Back to the future? The latest Janes news briefs e-mailing included this paragraph: "USA plans unmanned revolution The US Defense Airborne Reconnaissance Office has unveiled a range of revolutionary unmanned air vehicle concepts, including long-loitering, stealthy flying wings, high-altitude hypersonic aircraft and a flying saucer." hmm wasn't this all gone through before with the original Q, Tier-3 etc plans? (well..mabye not the flying saucer part :-) K ------------------------------ From: Dan Zinngrabe Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:16:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Back to the future? >The latest Janes news briefs e-mailing included this paragraph: > >"USA plans unmanned revolution >The US Defense Airborne Reconnaissance Office has unveiled a range of >revolutionary unmanned air vehicle concepts, including long-loitering, >stealthy flying wings, high-altitude hypersonic aircraft and a flying >saucer." > >hmm wasn't this all gone through before with the original Q, Tier-3 etc >plans? (well..mabye not the flying saucer part :-) > >K Does Jane's have a web version of their publications? I remember seeing their first attempts st web pages some time ago and being very underwhelmed. Myself, like just about everybody else in the world, is too poor to afford their stuff unless I were to get it through work (I used to get JIR during a long consulting job- nice magazine, much better than the in-house stuff and IJI&CI). Flying saucer most likely means the Darkstar. High altitude hypersonic aircraft... hmmm.... If DARO is really unvieling this stuff today, expect to see it on CNN soon. One of the things about the rumors of black aircraft coming out to play for the big USAF 50th aniversary show was that every other declassification of a black aircraft was begun by releasing a set of photos or blurry "artist's concept" (Tacit Blue, F-117, B-2, ATF prototypes) several weeks or more before the actual airframe was to be seen by the public. That may very well be what this is about, though DSPO is (from what I've been hearing) the keeper of a certain high speed inteligence platform... Dan ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 20:35:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: EAGLE CLAW Colonel James H. Kyle, USAF (Ret.), the commander of the USAF component and the Desert-I landing zone, details in his book the following mission plan. Kathryn typed the excerpt, while text inside of "[" and "]" are comments added by me. I haven't read the complete book yet, but it seems very comprehensive, and includes several very descriptive maps and sketches. Apparently, it has no serial numbers of any of the involved aircraft listed, though. :( Title: The Guts To Try Author: Colonel James H. Kyle, USAF (Ret.) with John Robert Eidson Publisher: Primer Publishers, Phoenix, AZ (originally Orion Books) Year: 1995 (originally 1990) ISBN: 0-935810-54-4 [Operation EAGLE CLAW -- Description of planned mission:] NIGHT ONE ========= * Three MC-130s [specifically MC-130E COMBAT TALON (I)] depart Masirah [an island off the coast of Oman] carrying Delta [Force soldiers], drivers for trucks hidden in the Tehran warehouse, a roadblock team with Farsi- speaking translators, a special assault team to take down the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and a team of combat controllers -- for a total of 139 to arrive at Desert-I under cover of darkness. * The first MC-130 departs at dusk, one hour ahead of the remaining two, to arrive well ahead of the rest of the force and in order to make sure the area is clear for landing (using the FLIR). * Three EC-130s [specifically EC-130E-II ABCCC aircraft of the 7th ACCS, 552nd AWACW, at Keesler AFB, MS] follow, carrying 18,000 gallons of jet fuel for the helicopters. * Concurrently, eight RH-53 helicopters [specifically RH-53Ds, modified for this mission] depart from the Nimitz (sailing in the Gulf of Oman approximately fifty nautical miles south of the Iranian coast), heading for the refueling rendezvous. * Once on the ground, the advance party positions the roadblock teams (Rangers and some Delta troopers) and the combat controllers set up the dual landing zone on the north and south sides of the road and start the TACAN operating. * The second and third MC-130s, landing an hour later, bring the remainder of Delta Force. * Two of the EC-130s land three to six minutes behind the Delta MC-130s, at which time the first two MC-130s launch for return to Masirah to reduce congestion in the landing zone. * The third EC-130 tanker then lands, making four aircraft now on the ground: two EC-130s on the north side of the road and one on the south side along with an MC-130. The MC-130 carries three 500-gallon blivets aboard as a backup fuel supply (making enough fuel for ten helicopters). * The helicopters arrive at Desert-I about fifteen minutes after the last EC-130 tanker is in place to allow for immediate refueling and loading of Delta. Each helo receives 1,750 gallons of fuel. If eight make it to the landing zone (LZ), three will be marshaled behind each of the two tankers north of the road and two behind the tanker on the south side. If only six make it, two each will be positioned behind each tanker. * Once refueled and loaded (planned for forty minutes after arrival), the helos proceed on some two hours and ten minutes to the drop-off point fifty miles southeast of Tehran, where Dick Meadows' reception committee will be waiting. * The four C-130s depart Desert-I, join up with KC-135s waiting to refuel them some 120 miles south of the Gulf of Oman, and then return to Masirah. * From the Delta drop-off point, the helos proceed approximately fifty miles northeast to a remote hideout (laager) near the town of Garmsar, where they land, set up defensive positions, and camouflage the aircraft prior to sunrise. Then they wait for Delta's call on Night-Two. * While the helos are flying to their laager, the Delta troops are moving on foot about five miles east to a remote hilly area. They bivouac in this area, which is honeycombed with abandoned salt mines, and make final preparations for the reconnaissance of and assault on the embassy. All forces are to be concealed in their respective hide sites by dawn. * For the rest of that day, JTF [Joint Task Force] headquarters in Wadi Kena, Egypt, monitors communications circuits to determine if our insertion activity has been detected and to obtain updates on the embassy situation from Dick Meadows. Any increase in security or unusual movement of vehicles to or from the embassy could mean they are on to us, in which case we will have to consider abandoning the rescue attempt, depending on evaluation of the situation. NIGHT TWO - --------- * If we haven't been detected during insertion, the hundred-man Ranger force launches from Wadi Kena aboard four MC-130s at dusk the second day to start the extraction phase. * The C-130s are refueled over Saudi Arabia by KC-135s. * Four AC-130 gunships (one spare) depart Wadi Kena shortly after the MC-130s and three continue on to Iran after refueling -- one to provide close air support for Beckwith's forces at the embassy, one to suppress any fighter ground activity at Mehrabad Airport on the outskirts of town, and the third to provide air support for either Delta or the Rangers at Manzariyeh. [The C-141Bs were from the 437th MAW (now AW) at Charleston, SC, who happen to (currently) operate several FLIR-equipped C-141Bs, for special ops, even though they were probably modified after EAGLE CLAW.] * Two C-141s depart Daharan, Saudi Arabia, so as to land at Manzariyeh ten minutes after the airfield is secured. One is basically a "flying hospital" to tend to any wounded or injured personnel. The other is configured with airline-style passenger seats. These "snort 'n' zoomer" transports will await the arrival of the choppers with Delta and the rescued hostages. * Meanwhile, Dick Meadows will drive Beckwith into Tehran from the hide site to reconnoiter the routes Delta will take. * Another van-type vehicle will then be used to infiltrate the six driver teams, with translators, to the edge of town to pick up six trucks prepositioned in a warehouse by CIA operatives. * Next, the vehicles will be driven back to the Delta hide site and prepared for movement of the assault force into town, hidden behind false walls in the trucks. * Based on his reconnaissance of Tehran, if it's a go, Beckwith will start moving the Delta Force into the city. The drivers will have to get past two roadblocks, which it has been determined can be done without too much difficulty. * A separate vehicle will move a special thirteen-man team into town for the rescue of the hostages at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They will use a different route from that of the main force. * Delta will move into position for the assault, scheduled for 11:00 p.m. Beckwith will have a plus-or-minus-forty-minute leeway on when to breach to wall, based on his best judgement of what he sees and is confronted with. The assault on Manzariyeh and the appearance of the gunship over the embassy will not occur until Beckwith gives the code word on his radio. * Once Delta enters the compound, Charlie will call for the helos. Four choppers will proceed to the Amjadieh soccer stadium, [where I believe the CREDIBLE SPORT YMC-130H would have landed and taken off, if Operation HONEY BADGER (or whatever name they would have used) had actually been launched] and two will fly to a location near the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and pick up the special assault team, which will have Bruce Laingen and two of his staff in tow. * It is estimated that the hostage release will take forty-five minutes (with most freed within thirty minutes). Once liberated, the hostages will be moved across Roosevelt Avenue into the soccer stadium, where part of Beckwith's force will have set up a helicopter extraction zone. [footnote 3: There was also a plan for one or two RH-53s to land inside the embassy compound on the athletic field and load hostages. Beckwith would determine if this was possible once inside the embassy grounds.] The stadium is a natural fortress from which Delta can hold off a sizable attacking force, if need be, especially with support from the AC-130's cannon. [...] * Upon arrival at Manzariyeh, the freed hostages and rescue team personnel will be sorted out according to any medical care required and then loaded on the waiting C-141s and taken out of Iran. * The MC-130s with the Rangers aboard will return to Wadi Kena, followed by AC-130s. The helicopters will be left behind, because there won't be sufficient fuel to get them to friendly territory. (I had heard that they would be destroyed where they sat... still a troublesome thought.) * The hostages, Delta, and the helo crews will be moved out of the Middle East expeditiously, so as to preserve the secrecy of Delta. * The remainder of the JTF assets involved will be redeployed home over a two-or-three-day period. [End of excerpt] The book contains a lot of information about the planning, preparations, training and the actual mission, as well as problems encountered, errors made and lessons learned. The author does not believe that more helicopters would have "rescued the day", by the way. He also discusses the 3 helicopter aborts and mentions that the BIM-related abort would have been a non-abort for USN pilots (regarding it as nitrogen gas leak), while USMC pilots would regard it as a cracked blade, which may endanger the mission, which was a reason to abort. At the time, the USMC had apparently already lost 3 CH-53s due to this specific problem, while the USN had not. A recommended book for everyone interested in the topic. Now, if someone can give me the serials of all the involved aircraft (in connection with their call signs), I would appreciate it very much! - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: larry@ichips.intel.com Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:46:25 -0800 Subject: Re: Back to the future? Kerry Ferrand writes: >The latest Janes news briefs e-mailing included this paragraph: > >"USA plans unmanned revolution >The US Defense Airborne Reconnaissance Office has unveiled a range of >revolutionary unmanned air vehicle concepts, including long-loitering, >stealthy flying wings, high-altitude hypersonic aircraft and a flying >saucer." > >hmm wasn't this all gone through before with the original Q, Tier-3 etc >plans? (well..mabye not the flying saucer part :-) The important word here is "concepts"! However, except for the flying saucer (and there's even been a hypersonic flying saucer concept in the news in the past several years), the high-altitude hypersonic aircraft is definitely new news, unless they're talking about this other thing I know about which will be in the news later this month (in unmanned version - but I didn't think DARO was involved in that program). So, it sounds to me like this is interesting stuff! Larry ------------------------------ From: keenank@juno.com (Kevin R Keenan) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:33:39 EST Subject: X-38 Anyone have any word on the "X-38" designation ? I've heard it mentioned as the designation for the International Space Station (ISS) Assured Crew Return Vehicle (ACRV). Kevin Keenan Kennedy Space Ctr. ISS Support Equip. Team ------------------------------ From: "Randal L. Marbury" Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:18:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Credible Sport ahanley@usace.mil wrote: > > Randall, > > You ask really good questions. The story that was put out, I believe, > was that they used RH-53s because if anyone saw HH-53s on the deck of the > NIMITZ in the area, they might suspect what was up (do the blades fold on the > HH?). I don't know how valid that is, but that's what the story was. As with most large military helos, the HH could be "folded" (not necessarily as compact or as easy as one designed for shipboard ops) for loading in, say, a C-5. That wasn't the issue so much as a perception of OPSEC needs: would the helos have been identified as AR-capable and therefore blown their cover as part of the operation? Frankly, I've never given this much credence. With the time available, a helo fleet could have been shipped in pieces and assembled in tents in the desert (say one of the 'friendly' Gulf states). The HC-130 tankers could have staged from the same places the D-1 M/C-130 "tankers" (FARRP ground refueling; ye gods, what a horrendous concept for this op!) did. > Regarding air refueling, the story there was that since refueling would have to > take place at a higher altitude, it might be seen (radar, visual?) and surprise > would be lost. I do know that in Vietnam, North Vietnamese MiGs would shoot > down rescue helicopters, and they may have been tracking them via the refueling > ops. You're right: we're not talking stealth here. However, a 300-500' altitude AR, a hundred (or hundreds of) miles away from the search radar site is probably _not_ going to be that conspicuous. As I recall, we're talking way out in the screaming desert. Plus, _you_are_inbound_ during the refueling, not sitting on the ground. 120 kts or so does cover some ground and your reserve/return fuel can orbit right up to the city limits, if needed (and the environment permits. I've never seen a report on exactly how well prepared the Ayatollah's folks were during that time). > BTW, IMHO FWIW. - -- Randal Marbury AeroSpace Technical Research Associates Watauga, TX, USA http://ASTRA.home.ml.org ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #27 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. 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