From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #28 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Wednesday, 12 March 1997 Volume 06 : Number 028 In this issue: Are Flying Triangles a Secret UK Aircraft? And now it's three Eagle Claw Louisville Air show Credible Sport Footage Re: Credible Sport Re: And now it's three Desert One Why??? Re: Why??? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 10:53:31 MET Subject: Are Flying Triangles a Secret UK Aircraft? I found the following via dejanews. It was posted to a.p.u. on 1997/03/11 by Hendrik Rademaker, and is an excerpt from CNI News, Vol. 2, No. 24, March 1, 1997. J. Pharabod ARE FLYING TRIANGLES A SECRET UK AIRCRAFT? More Sightings Fuel Suspicion of Human, Not Alien Craft [This story is based on a posting by UK researcher David Tilbury, dated February 19, 1997. Tilbury credits Tim Matthews of the Lancashire UFO Society for some of this information. CNI News thanks Philip Mantle for forwarding this item to us.] During the last six months, the northwest of England has experienced a number of Flying Triangle sightings. Speculation is rife as to what the object may be. Descriptions of the craft are usually detailed, as it has a habit of loitering, or hovering for a while, before departing at speed. Worldwide, triangle sightings are numerous but inconsistent with regard to the reported size of the craft. The version most often seen in northwest England is usually cited as being between 30 to 50 feet across. Elsewhere in the world, triangles can have spans in excess of 100 feet. Although in-flight characteristics appear similar, some of the overseas versions do seem to be more exotic in terms of performance. Consequently, some UK researchers believe they are dealing with a different animal, not a true UFO , but a Research and Development craft of military origin, possibly a joint Anglo-American venture. From studying eyewitness accounts, it appears that the vehicle is almost performing to its audience, as if the operators are interested to see the response of the observers. Sightings are often accompanied by reports of a "charged" atmosphere, indicative perhaps of some form of field propulsion which allows the craft to hover, climb, turn and accelerate at will. This may also explain the slight humming noise evident at times. [Note: Nothing in current aerospace literature indicates that any kind of field propulsion has been successfully applied to an aircraft.] Most witnesses describe a dark black triangular shape with lights at each corner, as well as a central red/orange glow. The corner illuminations may be conventional navigation lights, although they are usually dim and constant, and more probably represent the source of propulsion. [Note: This description closely matches objects sighted and photographed over Belgium in 1989-1990.] On some occasions, the whole craft is described as having an orange glow. Triangle sightings in the UK sometimes include exotic details. For example, in mid-July of 1996, a Liverpool resident claimed to have observed the following incident, as quoted from UFO Magazine (UK), November 1996: "Around 7pm on a pleasant summer evening in July, Dean Crowther looked out of the window of his luxury apartment overlooking the River Mersey, on the Wirral, at Liverpool. "His curiosity was aroused by what appeared to be a strange looking boat leaving behind an even stranger wake in the water. As the object moved closer, Dean grabbed his binoculars and saw a black elongated triangular object emerging from the depths. He estimated the triangle to be approximately 30 feet long, by 20 feet wide. As he continued to watch, he was amazed when the object rose out of the water and into the air. [It] reached a height of 25-30 feet before hovering motionless. "Suddenly, the object pivoted 45 degrees on its axis and then moved at speed, first into a horizontal position, and then assuming a vertical position. "Throughout this time the edges of the object appeared to ripple and fluctuate, then seemed to metamorphose until the wing area appeared to take on a more solid form. It then travelled away at high speed, vertically, and was quickly lost from view. Dean said the object was matt-black in colour and took on an elongated triangular shape. It did not reflect light, but appeared to absorb it." On October 24 at Southport, Lancashire, at least ten people reported seeing the triangle fly overhead. On November 8, 1996, at 6:20 pm local time, a man named Mal Jones was driving to work with he spotted a black triangle moving slowly over Liverpool. He followed the object in his car and saw it hover over the River Mersey for at least 25 minutes before clouds obscured it from view. Jones reported "red dull light at front, two dull yellow lights at rear; the lights were like a torch with dying batteries. It was a perfect triangle." Jones said he could not make out any noise as he was driving. On November 17th at 4:30 pm, a Sunday evening, five witnesses contacted Lancashire UFO Society, very concerned by their visual contact with a large "Triangle" in excess of 50 feet across. Recently, a young boy revealed that during the first week of November, he and a friend had seen an object which appeared between the clouds for just a few seconds. They had drawn this to the attention of the friend's father, who dismissed it as "just a plane." Only when pressed for further information did he describe to researcher David Tilbury a solid black triangle, and an interesting detail: he pointed out that in the glow from the lights -- again, three white/yellowish, one red -- he could see what he described as pipes on the underside of the craft. This feature has been mentioned in the past by other witnesses throughout the world, but is not a regular observation. The location was the northern end of the Wirral peninsula, looking from high ground towards the River Mersey at around 6:50 pm. Tilbury says, "All this adds weight to my belief that the mysterious black triangles are cutting edge technology aircraft." The link with the Lancashire Aerospace factory cannot be ignored, Tilbury says. That factory includes a Special Projects facility, situated within the airfield boundary, well protected by heavy security measures, and geographically well-positioned for covert operations during the hours of darkness. "There are certain things which, for reasons of Defence of the Realm, must remain under wraps, and I for one fully support that belief," Tilbury writes. "But if we have developed this revolutionary aircraft, then surely it's something to celebrate, not hide away behind some sort of bizarre alien facade, especially when sightings are beginning to cause public concern." It was recently revealed that the BBC has been "heavily D-Noticed" -- that is, forbidden from broadcasting any information -- concerning reports of the black triangle. Tilbury suspects this may account for the BBC's relatively tame coverage of a January 1995 incident in which a commercial 737 jet reported a "near miss" with an unidentified aircraft over Manchester, England. That affair was one of the few ever listed by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) as unexplained. After extensive investigation, the CAA investigation group concluded "...in the absence of any firm evidence which could identify or explain this object, it was not possible to assess either the cause or the risk to any of the normal criteria applicable to air-miss reports." The crew of the 737 were praised for their courage in reporting the incident. The unidentified craft flew directly over the cockpit of the 737, so close that the co-pilot instinctively ducked. Pilot and co-pilot both described the object as "wedge shaped." The latest development occurred on February 13, 1997 over Mablethorpe, Lincolnshire, when just before 3:00 pm local time, a black triangle was seen flying at about 200 feet between two RAF Tornados. "The three aircraft were heading out to sea, possibly toward the North Sea ACMI (testing area) which hosts military exercises," Tilbury said. "The ACMI is an electronic warfare area bounded by high-tech pylons which register the activities of aircraft operating within the sector. Could the triangle have been on its way to show-off to our NATO allies?" ------------------------------ From: Hank_Lapa@signalcorp.com (Hank Lapa) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:27:36 -0500 Subject: And now it's three Yup, this AM I have *3* copies of the digest. At least they're each not asking for a dollar and to be sent to 10 friends. Hank ------------------------------ From: ROTRAMELJE%AM4@mr.nawcad.navy.mil Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:34:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Eagle Claw In one of several books out about Eagle Claw (I don't remember which one) some interesting comments were made concerning the various aircraft being detected by Iranian radar. The US had installed the Iranian radar system and knew where all the gaps in its coverage were. When the C-130s flew in, they did so at several thousand feet (I don't recall exactly how high). However, the helos 'didn't get the word' and believed they needed to fly a nap-of-the-earth profile. They got caught up in the 'sand storm' (not the correct term), got separated, etc., etc. If they had 'gotten the word' and flown higher, maybe all those bad things wouldn't have happened. Maybe something worse would have happened. Maybe all the hostages would have gotten rescued (and Jimmy Carter re-elected). Maybe, in the great scheme of things, it didn't turn out so bad after all:) Does anyone know when the Air Force special ops helos began doing night air refueling? BTW, when you see pictures of USN/USMC aircraft from CVW-14's cruise on the Coral Sea during, look for an orange and black 'Sabre band' on the right wing. Those were the Eagle Claw air support aircraft. Squadrons included VMFA-323, VMFA-531 (F-4N); VA-97, VA-27 (A-7E); VA-196 (A-6D/E); VAW-113 (E-2B). The F-4s and A-7s had these markings for sure, I don't know about the others. Jim ------------------------------ From: ConsLaw@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Louisville Air show I'm forwarding this e-mail I received in response to my inquiry regarding the 50th Anniversary airshow in Louisville Kentucky. Fellow skunkers, let me know if you are interested in a group "skunk-in" Subj: Thunder Over Louisville Date: Tue, Mar 11, 1997 11:54 PM EDT From: r3gregor@compuserve.com X-From: r3gregor@compuserve.com (R. Gregor) To: conslaw@aol.com (Hofer, Steve) Mr. Hofer-- Thank you for your interest in our Air Force 50th anniversary celebration at Thunder Over Louisville. No tickets or special reservations are required for Thunder. There is no parking fee for the static display at the Air National Guard base at Louisville International Airport on April 19-20, but the round-trip shuttle bus ride between the parking areas and the base will cost $1. There is no special parking for the April 19th airshow and fireworks -- anyplace downtown along the river is a good vantage point. In addition to the airshow, the Air Force Band of Flight from Wright-Patterson AFB will perform at the Palace Theatre on April 17 at 7p.m. The Air Force Tops in Blue will perform on April 18 at 8 p.m. Please let me know if you would like tickets for either of these free concerts. Our web site and the Kentucky Derby Festival web site are good sources of updated information about Thunder Over Louisville. Our site is at www.kyang.win.net and it's linked to the Derby Festival site. Once you arrive in town for Thunder, check out the Courier Journal newspaper and the local TV stations for very detailed information about the show. Sincerely, Maj Ralinda Gregor KyANG Chief of Public Affairs - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------ News Release From: KyANG Public Affairs Phone: (502) 364-9431 1019 Grade Lane Fax: (502) 364-9676 Louisville, KY 40213-2643 Contact: Major Ralinda Gregor Date: Jan. 7, 1997 Derby Festival Opening Ceremonies: Thunder Over Louisville to celebrate U.S. Air Force 50th birthday This yearis Kentucky Derby Festival Opening Ceremonies: Thunder Over Louisville will assume national significance as one of the high points in a year-long celebration of the U.S. Air Forceis 50th birthday. While hundreds of commemorative events will be held across the country, Thunder Over Louisville has been selected as one of two marquee events to commemorate the Air Forceis golden anniversary. In addition to the spectacular fireworks and light display, the April 19 Thunder airshow promises to be one of the best in the nation with fly-bys of practically every type of aircraft in the current Air Force inventory. The show will feature the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds demonstration team. Thunder e97 offers a once-in-a-lifetime chance to see everything from the Air Force Academyis powered glider to the B-2 Stealth bomber and F-117 Stealth fighter. The show will also salute the Air Forceis past with flybys and performances by dozens of restored warbirds from the World War II, Korean War, and Vietnam War eras. All the aircraft will be on display this year in a giant open house, April 19-20, at the Kentucky Air National Guard Base at Louisville International Airport. In all, more than 120 aircraft are slated for static display at the airport and performance in the airshow over the Ohio River. Free performances by the Air Force Band of Flight and the Air Force Tops in Blue will round out the weekendis festivities. Air Force heroes and dignitaries will be in Louisville for several Kentucky Derby Festival events to celebrate the golden legacy and boundless future of your United States Air Force. Thunder e97 will also mark the golden anniversaries of the Air National Guard and the Louisville International Airport. Several special events and displays are planned during the Kentucky Derby Festival to celebrate these milestones in aviation history. ### ------------------------------ From: Bruce R Cogan Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:52:52 -0700 Subject: Credible Sport Footage Is the Credible Sport footage out on the net? I missed seeing it on the news and am dying to see it. Bruce ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 8:58:37 nA Subject: Re: Credible Sport Randall, Thanks for the reply. In my low altitude point I probably implied too much about fear of the helos getting shot down. I think the concern was actually that if the operation was seen in any manner (and a C-130 down at 300 feet for the AR would get noticed, and I'll bet all the pilots involved would be real nervous doing it over unfamilair terrain at that altitude) a message might get sent to the wrong people. If the folks in Teheran heard that a bunch of unknown transports and helicopters were observed transiting at high speed, it wouldn't take too much to figure out what was going on and to move the hostages. As you know, some Iranians stumbled across the desert site whil the commandos were there (Murphy again), but since the troops were on the ground, the situation could be contained. I've read books written by each element of the force, and it's interesting how they interpret what happened. They each see a lot of it differently. One thing they all agreed on was that the central managment from Washington didn't work, and information that was needed wasn't supplied. An example was the weather and "dust storms" in the area information which was considered too classified to supply to the rescue force! Art Hanley Once again, do not make the mistake of believing that whatever I droned on about above has anything to do with I am authorized to drone on about. ------------------------------ From: Mental Jewelry Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:25:49 -0800 Subject: Re: And now it's three Hank Lapa wrote: > > Yup, this AM I have *3* copies of the digest. At least they're each > not asking for a dollar and to be sent to 10 friends. > > Hank Got two copies of this... - -- clew@cris.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2925 ------------------------------ From: David Lednicer Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:02:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Desert One A few notes on people's comments: 1) The RH-53Ds were painted overall flat tan, onboard the Nimitz, for the mission. Hence, they were just as conspicous on the Nimitz as a camo HH-53. I have color pictures taken of the RHs as they launched. They were printed in the Japanese magazine Koku Fan and never showed up in an American magazine. The only markings carried on the helicopters were a single number on the nose, to distinguish the eight helicopters from one another. Hence, I don't have clue as to the serial numbers. 2) All RH-53Ds are/were air refuelable, just like HH-53s. However, the probes were removed for the mission and caps were put on the stubs. This was probably done to save weight and extend the range - the same reason the EAPS were removed. 3) RH-53Ds have hydraulic blade fold, enabling them to be put on carrier elevators. HH-53s have a different rotor hub and the blades must be removed to reduce their footprint. To fit a H-53 into a transport aircraft, the entire rotor hub must be removed, along with the tail. 4) The RH-53D is/was equipped with T64s with higher power ratings than those on HH-53s. This is because the power demands for the minesweeping role are very high. According to my pocket Jane's, the HH-53C had T64-7s rated at 3925 hp, while the RH-53Ds had T64-415s rated at 4380 hp. 5) The Imperial Iranian Navy bought and took delivery of six RH-53Ds before the Shah was overthrown. However, the way the ones for the mission were painted and configured, there would have been no mistaking them for IIN ones.. 6) I have seen photos of HH-53s being air-to-air refueled by HC-130s at very low level. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ From: patrick@e-z.net Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:11:54 -0800 Subject: Why??? My biggest frustration with my interest in following my countries military aerospace activities is why must we continually rely so heavily on foreign resources to learn about our own programs. I am definitly not chauvinistic, ethnocentric or unappreciative of these incredibly valuable resources. But why do the Brits seem to have more awareness about our Air Force than we do? Why do we fight to get the latest British Aerospace magazine to see what might be flying at Groom. And if we do see something then we scramble for a Japanese publication for the excellent color separations and coated paper. And why do we have to ask a non-American to help us track the registration number of a US aircraft? I absolutely admire the work all those people do and mean not to slight some of the fine hard work we do here in this country. I have a friend who is an absolute wizard with the SR-71. But something just doesn't seem right to me. And what appears saddest of all is the Air Force seems to care less. Have I lost my perspective or just my marbles? Think I will go find that bucket of propwash now. patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:59:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Why??? Patrick wrote: >My biggest frustration with my interest in following my countries military >aerospace activities is why must we continually rely so heavily on foreign >resources to learn about our own programs. Apparently, the many enthusiasts around the world, a lot of whom are from Britain (for some unknown reason), are collecting data, buying, reading, and writing books, talking with friends and "sources", and working hard to get any bit of information they can. Following your reasoning, the American enthusiasts are apparently too lazy or too incompetent to acquire information -- or are too secretive with what they find out, and don't share. I can't agree with that! >I am definitly not chauvinistic, ethnocentric or unappreciative of these >incredibly valuable resources. But why do the Brits seem to have more >awareness about our Air Force than we do? Actually, there are many people here (in the USA) with a lot of awareness -- enthusiasts and professionals alike. And there are a lot of foreign people who don't have a clue. >Why do we fight to get the latest British Aerospace magazine to see what >might be flying at Groom. Sometimes JDW is first, sometimes AW&ST, sometimes someone else. It is true, though, that the average quality of British aerospace magazines is superior to the average aerospace magazine from the US, or any other country for that matter. US, France and Japan also have good publications, while Germany, on the other hand, basically copies/translates British or other magazines (with one or two exceptions). But, there seems to be a bigger market in the UK than anywhere else for those magazines -- more enthusiasts per square mile, so to speak. >And if we do see something then we scramble for a Japanese publication >for the excellent color separations and coated paper. Maybe Koku Fan pays better for those photographs -- it's expensive enough. I don't know of a single high quality photo (and text) magazine in the US, which is not imported. Maybe a market niche to exploit? On second thought, Combat Aircraft (formerly Air Fan International) is already working on that, I suppose. >And why do we have to ask a non-American to help us track the registration >number of a US aircraft? Maybe because it easier than finding it out for yourself? >I absolutely admire the work all those people do and mean not to slight >some of the fine hard work we do here in this country. I have a friend >who is an absolute wizard with the SR-71. I have collected aerospace information, and especially serial numbers, for about 20 years, or so. It's true that I first did this in Germany, where the term aircraft "spotter" means something entirely different than here, and I envied the British and Americans for all the literature and information available to them. Now I live in America and if anyone needs any information about serials, etc., I'm still glad to help. It's a work of passion, and most enthusiasts, whether British, Swedish, Belgian, American or any other nationality, like to share their work -- some even make a couple of bucks with it (not me though, sigh). ;) >But something just doesn't seem right to me. And what appears saddest of >all is the Air Force seems to care less. I'm not sure what you mean -- the USAF and USN have much more and better public relations efforts than many other countries. There are lots of museums, air shows, and WWW pages around. No other air arm in the world comes even close, I would think. I probably misunderstood your point, though. >Have I lost my perspective or just my marbles? Think I will go find that >bucket of propwash now. Won't comment on that. :) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #28 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica