From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #29 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Friday, 14 March 1997 Volume 06 : Number 029 In this issue: RE: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic Re: Credible Sport Herks Re: Why??? Continuing Multiple copies of Digests. CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Re: Credible Sport Re: Why??? Re: Why??? methane storage/transport Re: Why??? CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Re: methane storage/transport Are Flying Triangles a Secret UK Aircraft? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 17:05:53 GMT Subject: RE: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic ___________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: RE: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic Author: Bill Riddle at FHU2 Date: 12/03/97 7:22 Cross posted from Mahan Naval History List ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: RE: Jimmy Carter Desert Classic Author: mahan@microwrks.com at smtp-fhu Date: 3/12/97 6:45 AM I came in on the middle of this thread, so if this info has already been passed, my apologies in advance for being redundant. US Naval Institute published a book several years (10?) ago called "The Iranian Rescue Mission and Why it Failed." Good read - well written and short. Probably the best treatment of the subject available in unclass sources. FWIW. Semper Fi, Bill Philbin History Dept, USNA ------------------------------ From: "Terry Colvin" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 17:11:09 GMT Subject: Re: Credible Sport Herks ___________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re: Credible Sport Herks Author: Bill Riddle at FHU2 Date: 12/03/97 13:06 Tom- That stuff came from the "Skunkworks" list. There was quite a bit of comment, other than what was on TV. All that was forwarded to me by Terry Colvin, who I cc'd on this note. I didn't save any of it, but maybe Terry can either 1) tell you who posted it or 2) tell you how to subscribe to Skunkworks so you can ask to have it rexmitted. Or maybe Terry could 3) post a note to Skunkworks asking folks to resend it straight to you. Why don't you send a note direct to Terry and tell him your preference. VR, Bill PS, I did forward some of it to my brother, a retired AF master sergeant and C141 flight engineer (and one time C130 mech). As they are in my message log, I will forward those few to you. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Credible Sport Herks Author: Tom Robison at smtp-fhu Date: 3/11/97 9:42 PM Hi, Bill I read with interest yoru post to Mahan about the helicopters used at Desert One, since the original subject of the post was "Credible Sport". What mailing list was this from? I've been searching high and low for Credible Sport info for several years now. I thought a flood of info would come out after last week's videos released by Jane's. I'm a Herky freak, love them all, but I've been frustrated at every turn by the dearth of info on the Credible Sport versions. Where is this discussion taking place? Please clue me in. Thanks Tom Robison Ossian, Indiana tcrobi@mindspring.com ------------------------------ From: John Stone Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:29:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Why??? Patrick and other listers, >My biggest frustration with my interest in following my countries >military aerospace activities is why must we continually rely so heavily >on foreign resources to learn about our own programs. I am definitly >not chauvinistic, ethnocentric or unappreciative of these incredibly >valuable resources. But why do the Brits seem to have more awareness >about our Air Force than we do? Why do we fight to get the latest >British Aerospace magazine to see what might be flying at Groom. And if >we do see something then we scramble for a Japanese publication for the >excellent color separations and coated paper. And why do we have to ask >a non-American to help us track the registration number of a US >aircraft? Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, I feel the same way! I've talked to the company that imports Koku Fan, and they keep saying that there is not enough interest in an English version. The place I get Koku Fan gets about 5-7 issues and if you not there the day they come in you don't get one! Sounds like enough interest to me! On the issue of production values, "excellent color separations and coated paper" the US (in my opinion) lags behind the rest of the world in this look at US car or motorcycle mags vs. Euro ones, except for Automobile, all of them fall by the way side..... There is one Av mag "Flightline", nice pics, (still lacks in quality compared to Koku Fan) but no written stuff per say. Excluding Av Week, are there any other US produced aviation mags? Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:31:24 GMT Subject: Continuing Multiple copies of Digests. Hello: As you are all well aware there are continuing multiple copies of the skuk-works digest going out. Mark and I have tried everything we can think of to remedy the problem to no avail. My suspicions are that due to the long time it takes to look up addresses and the large # of incorrect addresses it is simply rescanning the mail queue before the initial run gets done, etc. MY solution to this is NOT elegant, but its all I can think of....Effective Sunday 3/16/97 I will be DELETING ALL USERS ON THE SKUNK-WORKS AND SKUNK-WORKS-DIGEST LISTING. IF YOU WISH TO RECEIVE THE LIST AND/OR DIGEST PLEASE RESUBSCRIBE BEGINNING ON MONDAY 3/18/97 @ 0600 CST (1200 GMT). I will force a final digest at the time we delete the names. To subscribe here are the commands to place in a message to listserv@pmihwy.com skunk-works list: subscribe skunk-works you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works georgek@netwrx1.com) skunk-works-digest list: subscribe skunk-works-digest you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works-digest georgek@netwrx1.com) Mark and I will work on the method to most quickly purge the names from the list between now and then. I WILL BE REPEATING THIS MESSAGE DAILY FROM NOW UNTIL THE TIME THE DIGEST IS PURGED. I am sorry for the inconvenienced this causes anyone but we will hopefully fix the problems once and for all. Thank you for your understanding, ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 President/Consultant +1 414 541 8579 FAX Netwrx Consulting, Inc. West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com www.netwrx1.com - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDHH2gAAAEEAL9FWaYjjxtHJqFbq/3MAY5o2IUao+XCImBx/Ny+v5T/DVdM lQFo6BV0neJ9/RO1VYaM8Xm003x7HLXB2LqWwqfdxvxlUv4crKDL5iwTEdzbAD2w ZJ4bIjgUNAmK75RnNTaRoqswgEcRRu0XD6H/t7VgoYZKDcU+p5YN47tzGRtpAAUR tBJnZW9yZ2VrQHBtaWh3eS5jb20= =jdUe - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 03:44:33 GMT Subject: CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Hello: As you are all well aware there are continuing multiple copies of the skuk-works digest going out. Mark and I have tried everything we can think of to remedy the problem to no avail. My suspicions are that due to the long time it takes to look up addresses and the large # of incorrect addresses it is simply rescanning the mail queue before the initial run gets done, etc. MY solution to this is NOT elegant, but its all I can think of....Effective Sunday 3/16/97 I will be DELETING ALL USERS ON THE SKUNK-WORKS AND SKUNK-WORKS-DIGEST LISTING. IF YOU WISH TO RECEIVE THE LIST AND/OR DIGEST PLEASE RESUBSCRIBE BEGINNING ON MONDAY 3/18/97 @ 0600 CST (1200 GMT). I will force a final digest at the time we delete the names. To subscribe here are the commands to place in a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com skunk-works list: subscribe skunk-works you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works georgek@netwrx1.com) skunk-works-digest list: subscribe skunk-works-digest you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works-digest georgek@netwrx1.com) Mark and I will work on the method to most quickly purge the names from the list between now and then. I WILL BE REPEATING THIS MESSAGE DAILY FROM NOW UNTIL THE TIME THE DIGEST IS PURGED. I am sorry for the inconvenienced this causes anyone but we will hopefully fix the problems once and for all. Thank you for your understanding, ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 President/Consultant +1 414 541 8579 FAX Netwrx Consulting, Inc. West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com www.netwrx1.com - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDHH2gAAAEEAL9FWaYjjxtHJqFbq/3MAY5o2IUao+XCImBx/Ny+v5T/DVdM lQFo6BV0neJ9/RO1VYaM8Xm003x7HLXB2LqWwqfdxvxlUv4crKDL5iwTEdzbAD2w ZJ4bIjgUNAmK75RnNTaRoqswgEcRRu0XD6H/t7VgoYZKDcU+p5YN47tzGRtpAAUR tBJnZW9yZ2VrQHBtaWh3eS5jb20= =jdUe - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ From: tonydinkel@clubnet.net (Tony Dinkel) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:52:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Credible Sport > What I could never figure out was how the mission was supposed to >end, if it succeded. The commandos were supposed to go into Tehran on >buses and assault the embassy. Then, the RH-53Ds were supposed to come >and airlift everyone to the airport. There, US troops were supposed to >land in C-141s and seize the airport, so that everyone could be evacuated. >It is hard to see how this could have succeded. I assume they had intelligence that indicated all the hostages were still at the embasy? How do you catch an Iranian off guard? ------------------------------ From: John Burtenshaw Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:21:15 -0100 Subject: Re: Why??? Hi As a Brit and who is talking purely from my own point of view I can say I admire your FIA - something which we don't have here. Info / data on secret or black military projects is very difficult to come by in th UK so over the years we have learnt how to ferret/piece together odds and ends in an attempt to find out the "truth". We also have a very sophisticated network of aircraft spotters that are (largely) connected via the Net so if anything out of the usual moves we know about it. For instance a RC-135 appeared at RAF Brize Norton yesterday and within the hour everyone on the appropriate list knew it was there, its callsign, its serial number. Likewise the Black Triangle - the guys who watch the BAe airfield at Warton would report any movements of this *supposed* craft (they haven't yet :)). I don't think we are any different from the guys in the States... just more organised and tenacious in getting info. BTW I have great resepect for the guys who sift the US DoD Budgets for hidden details etc. Regards John ------------------------------ From: ahanley@usace.mil Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 10:02:16 nA Subject: Re: Why??? I think John has put his finger on the problem: The market just isn't that large, given the high cost of producing such a mag in this country. It's just no perceived that people could make money producing such a magazine over here, given what you can already buy. There is a particularly handsome magazine produced in Australia, but I'll bet their production costs are much less. Would a new American magazine of the European/Japanese type sell if it cost $30 per issue (or 50% more than its equivalent foreign compatriots)? Flying is about the most handsomely produced aviation magazine in this country, and it's about on a level with our better car magazines. On the other hand, we produce a good number of aviation magazines over here for the general aviation scene, which is larger in this country than in many others, although they aren't as handsome as Air International, World Airpower Journal or even Flying. Art Hanley My employer has absolutely nothing to do with any of this and is no doubt glad of that fact ------------------------------ From: adrian mann Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:48:09 +0000 Subject: methane storage/transport Lurk mode off... Couple of q's to stimulate a bit of debate.... 1. Is there any evidence that high flying (60k ft plus) aircraft have any effect on ozone depletion? As far as I am aware, the combustion products of conventional fuel are pretty inert, and therefore not a problem. Does anyone know different? What about "exotic" fuels, e.g. methane, hydrogen? 2. Is there any relation between altitude and contrail formation? That is, is there an altitude above which there isn't enough water vapour or particulates to form contrails, and is there an effect caused by ambient temperature or pressure? 3. If an aircraft was to be fueled by, for example, methane, is there an existing method for transportation and storage? Does "Boron" ring any bells for anyone? What about 152,000 gallons of the stuff at Whittier, Alaska railroad yard enroute to Eilson AF base, and a (capital letters) LARGE facility under construction there? Sorry to be so cryptic, but I'm going on a few snippets of info that drift my way... Lurk mode on.... - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Web site: http://www.aemann.demon.co.uk Adrian Mann, Birmingham, England ------------------------------ From: David Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:08:09 Subject: Re: Why??? patrick cullumber writes: >My biggest frustration with my interest in following my countries >military aerospace activities is why must we continually rely so heavily >on foreign resources to learn about our own programs. I am definitly >not chauvinistic, ethnocentric or unappreciative of these incredibly >valuable resources. But why do the Brits seem to have more awareness >about our Air Force than we do? Why do we fight to get the latest >British Aerospace magazine to see what might be flying at Groom. > > I'd like to add my 2 pence/cents: The US is engaged in some fascinating aerospace work both theoretical and applied, so to us in the UK it's a source of great interest. The attitude of US contractors; NASA; universities/national labs and the Pentagon has never ceased to amaze me. Without exception I've found them co-operative in the extreme...only too happy to give me the info I need if they can, or politely decline if they can't. The result of this is that it's sadly far more fruitful to deal with them than other folk in Europe and the UK. Public/media relations outside of the US are at best patchy and at worst downright obstructive...In short, US research is more productive, so Europeans spend a lot of time doing it. There are some excellent US based researchers,writers and magazines..AVLeak is an absolute must-read, they've done some first rate stuff on Groom and the programmes that may be operating there..visual stealth etc. Maybe as you live there, it's easy to forget how good you have it ! Best David ------------------------------ From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:23:02 GMT Subject: CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Hello: As you are all well aware there are continuing multiple copies of the skuk-works digest going out. Mark and I have tried everything we can think of to remedy the problem to no avail. My suspicions are that due to the long time it takes to look up addresses and the large # of incorrect addresses it is simply rescanning the mail queue before the initial run gets done, etc. MY solution to this is NOT elegant, but its all I can think of....Effective Sunday 3/16/97 I will be DELETING ALL USERS ON THE SKUNK-WORKS AND SKUNK-WORKS-DIGEST LISTING. IF YOU WISH TO RECEIVE THE LIST AND/OR DIGEST PLEASE RESUBSCRIBE BEGINNING ON MONDAY 3/18/97 @ 0600 CST (1200 GMT). I will force a final digest at the time we delete the names. To subscribe here are the commands to place in a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com skunk-works list: subscribe skunk-works you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works georgek@netwrx1.com) skunk-works-digest list: subscribe skunk-works-digest you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works-digest georgek@netwrx1.com) Mark and I will work on the method to most quickly purge the names from the list between now and then. I WILL BE REPEATING THIS MESSAGE DAILY FROM NOW UNTIL THE TIME THE DIGEST IS PURGED. I am sorry for the inconvenienced this causes anyone but we will hopefully fix the problems once and for all. Thank you for your understanding, ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 President/Consultant +1 414 541 8579 FAX Netwrx Consulting, Inc. West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com www.netwrx1.com - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDHH2gAAAEEAL9FWaYjjxtHJqFbq/3MAY5o2IUao+XCImBx/Ny+v5T/DVdM lQFo6BV0neJ9/RO1VYaM8Xm003x7HLXB2LqWwqfdxvxlUv4crKDL5iwTEdzbAD2w ZJ4bIjgUNAmK75RnNTaRoqswgEcRRu0XD6H/t7VgoYZKDcU+p5YN47tzGRtpAAUR tBJnZW9yZ2VrQHBtaWh3eS5jb20= =jdUe - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ From: Nick Loadholtes Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:15:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: methane storage/transport On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, adrian mann wrote: > 1. Is there any evidence that high flying (60k ft plus) aircraft have any > effect on ozone depletion? As far as I am aware, the combustion products of > conventional fuel are pretty inert, and therefore not a problem. Does > anyone know different? What about "exotic" fuels, e.g. methane, hydrogen? I'm no expert but I would have to say no. The by-product of burning Methane (CH4) in air (O2) is Carbon Dioxide (CO2) and Water (H2O) and the by-product of burning Hydrogen in air is just plain water (assuming ideal condition and such). Although Carbon Dioxide is a greenhouse gas, you would have to release a s***load of it in the upper atmosphere to have any noticable effect. Actually now that I think about it, if all aircraft ran off of "clean" fuels (like Methane and Hydrogen), maybe the atmopshere would be in a little bit better shape... :) > 3. If an aircraft was to be fueled by, for example, methane, is there an > existing method for transportation and storage? Does "Boron" ring any bells > for anyone? Well if I had to transport or store that kinda stuff I would try to store it as a liquid so that I could keep the maximum amount in the smallest amount of area (although I imagine keeping it cold would be a nightmare for any extended period of time). But then again, I'm no expert. As for Boron, is that a code word or something? I know it is an element, but I've never heard of it being used in anything outside of the fabrication of electronic circiuts. ************************************************************************ Nick "Yeah, stranger things they might have happened..." njl@crl.com -Mary Chapin Carpenter http://www.crl.com/~njl ------------------------------ From: James Easton Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:30:48 -0500 Subject: Are Flying Triangles a Secret UK Aircraft? Regarding... >From: "J. Pharabod" >Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 10:53:31 MET >Subject: Are Flying Triangles a Secret UK Aircraft? Jean-Pierre wrote: >[This story is based on a posting by UK researcher David Tilbury...] Jean-Pierre, Some comments re David's article: One point which isn't perhaps common knowledge is that Captain Roger Willis, the pilot of the British Airways Boeing 737 involved in the January '95 airmiss, has apparently stated the belief that it was some type of stealth aircraft which so nearly collided with his aircraft. He was interviewed last year for a UK series called "Out of This World" and a friend who was asked to contribute some material to the series told me, "they decided to leave out the statement by the Manchester airmiss pilot in which he clearly described the craft he saw as a "Stealth" aircraft". This seemingly wasn't what the producers wanted to hear and they only featured the co-pilot, Mark Stuart, who was more open to discussing alternative possibilities for the "wedge-shaped" object encountered. As they only saw the object for a couple of seconds, I don't believe either of them can really be sure what it was. >It was recently revealed that the BBC has been "heavily D-Noticed" -- that is, forbidden from broadcasting any information -- concerning reports of the black triangle.< This isn't the case. There have been a number of media features on the "triangles" recently. There really isn't much in the way of tangible evidence for the "Silent Vulcan" or any such UK based development. As you appreciate, very few reported sightings of "triangular" craft make any sense in conventional terms - Chris Gibson's being a rare exception - and I would sooner believe the vast majority are either fabricated reports and misidentifications than classified aircraft. In any event, over the last few months I have acquired a considerable number of relatively unknown new reports, which I'll now try to put in some semblance of order and make them available to anyone who wants a copy of the file. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #29 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica