From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #31 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Saturday, 15 March 1997 Volume 06 : Number 031 In this issue: Re: A-6 Retrospective Re: A-6 Retrospective New, With Boron for Whiter Whites! Re: Why??? Boscombe Down Incident Is the list still alive?? CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Re: Boscombe Down Incident Re: Is the list still alive?? The British SAS and Boscombe Down Eagle Claw Aircraft CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David K. Probst" Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:23:58 +0000 (HELP) Subject: Re: A-6 Retrospective Gentlemen, I may have three inches of specification of A-6 avionics on my desk, but my message is other. (a) Ed McCracken is on the carpet before the NSC this morning because of supercomputer sales to both Russian and Chinese nuclear-design laboratories. (b) Pierre Salinger---in a Paris Match that reaches the U.S. today in paper form---does his TWA-800 shtick. Is this an information op designed to elicit information about Navy TBMD capabilities against Sovremenny-class destroyers armed with SS-N-22s. (c) All my c4i-pro postings are being either manually or automatically being bounced. (d) A comment in the WSJ takes on a more sinister meaning after a recent highly-classified report to SecDef: ... a force of any size that lacks first-class capabilities to defeat [WMD] and other threats might become a *zero-war military*, [my italics] because future presidents may shy away from committing such forces to battle. A nonparanoid would have left (c) off this short list as irrelevant. Are any of you experiencing c4i-pro anomalies? David ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:42:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: A-6 Retrospective On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, David K. Probst wrote: > Gentlemen, Gentlemen? Does this mean I'm not supposed to read this message? A Y chromosome is not required for someone to be interested in aircraft, skunky or otherwise. _Ms_ Mary Shafer Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: "Todd Madson" Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 12:11:36 CST Subject: New, With Boron for Whiter Whites! Delurk on. I believe someone, somewhere either on the net or on a Discovery Channel special had mentioned that the fuel of the SR-71 was laced with Boron in order to make the contrail less likely to be detected. Either that or it was a contrail heat signature reduction scheme. Now, Adrian Mann posted: > From: adrian mann > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:48:09 +0000 > Subject: methane storage/transport > Lurk mode off... > Couple of q's to stimulate a bit of debate.... > 1. Is there any evidence that high flying (60k ft plus) aircraft have any > effect on ozone depletion? As far as I am aware, the combustion products of > conventional fuel are pretty inert, and therefore not a problem. Does > anyone know different? What about "exotic" fuels, e.g. methane, hydrogen? > > 2. Is there any relation between altitude and contrail formation? That is, > is there an altitude above which there isn't enough water vapour or > particulates to form contrails, and is there an effect caused by ambient > temperature or pressure? > > 3. If an aircraft was to be fueled by, for example, methane, is there an > existing method for transportation and storage? Does "Boron" ring any bells > for anyone? What about 152,000 gallons of the stuff at Whittier, Alaska > railroad yard enroute to Eilson AF base, and a (capital letters) LARGE > facility under construction there? > Sorry to be so cryptic, but I'm going on a few snippets of info that drift > my way... Would this be any chance a response to a message written by one Robert Alan Gigler at http://haas.berkeley.edu/~hoff/arourapage.html? This is a "unofficial Aurora aircraft homepage". He later brands himself a complete loon by going into massive alien conspiracy theories and that the "Aurora" is very obsolete since we obviously have craft capable of going to Mars in 8 minutes so why would we need Aurora? Gigler is quoted (I'm leaving his mispellings intact): "Robert Alan Gigler, from U S A, was here on Sat Mar 8 23:53:57 UTC 1997, leaving the message: The Aurora flies over Alaska at least weekly , we see the pulse detonation jet engines contrails. The aurora fuels up over Fairbanks, Alaska fuel load is 52,000 gallons of liquid menthane (boron). I seen the railroad tankers coming back empty from Eilson AF base on Feb. 28,1997 2- railroad fuel tankers marked 150,000 gallon capacity (WARNING EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS FUEL). BLUE color coded tankers (LIQUID MENTHANE (BORON). FACT OR FICTION the fleet of Aurora spy aircraft is destroying the oxone. NASA can not prove my theory is wrong without discloseing the true exixtence of the Aurora Bomber Spy aircraft. in Alaska BOB." Well, that's certainly interesting. He may have seen tankers, the purpose of which could be to fuel any exotic propulsion vehicle, i.e. rocket tests, new types of jet engines, whatever. I take it with a grain of salt that a plane that allegedly doesn't exist is easily seen once a week in his neck of the woods and how he is able to identify it so positively (then in his next message he's off to the planets, you can go to the homepage and examine it to see the kind of loon he is). Anyway, it makes for interesting, if wildly questionable reading. ------------------------------ From: "Randal L. Marbury" Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:33:51 -0600 Subject: Re: Why??? Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > > Patrick wrote: > > >My biggest frustration with my interest in following my countries military > >aerospace activities is why must we continually rely so heavily on foreign > >resources to learn about our own programs. Is it possible that the reason for such interest is an outgrowth of the "up-close-and-personal" location of Europeans (particularly in the UK) to the action in both world wars and Cold War? After all, it was much more likely the fathers and grandfathers passed on a heritage of (and interest in) "aircraft spotting" from their firsthand and essential service during actual conflicts. It probably became apparent in the US (after the initial year or two of scares) that nobody was going to mount bomber raids on the North American mainland. And lost interest. This isn't to say there isn't a substantial following of the "craft" in the US--it's just never become a hobby of choice (?). > > Apparently, the many enthusiasts around the world, a lot of whom are from > Britain (for some unknown reason), are collecting data, buying, reading, and writing books... > > Sometimes JDW is first, sometimes AW&ST, sometimes someone else. It is true, > though, that the average quality of British aerospace magazines is superior > to the average aerospace magazine from the US, or any other country for that... Disagree in principle: what's the criteria for "superior"? The US trade publications are quite good and frankly _Wings_, _Airpower_, _Air Progress_, and _Air Combat_ are excellent, tho' they do not have the library-quality slick paper or heavy soft-covers of their foreign counterparts. Journals such as USNI_Proceedings_ do. And what about Smithsonian's _Air & Space_? > Maybe Koku Fan pays better for those photographs -- it's expensive enough... Certainly the quality of some of their material *is* excellent, but I have found my Japanese not to be up to the task of translating it However, why hasn't some entrepreneur started a Koku-Fan US (heck, the auto and electronics/other media companies haven't been exactly shy about setting up production facilities in the US). And the production costs here are lower than overseas (for the subject items); I know I'd like to be able to get K-F in English for less than $20 and issue! > >But something just doesn't seem right to me. And what appears saddest of > >all is the Air Force seems to care less. Not completely true, but OTOH it's not exactly their job (except as a recruiting tool). Does the RAF actively sponsor the annual commemorative tattoo that publishes a slick magazine? Not sure the Congress would approve a USAF or USN fund-raiser for their MWR (Morale, Welfare, and Recreation) fund. (Remember "...have to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber" of the 1960's?) > > > >Have I lost my perspective or just my marbles? Think I will go find that > >bucket of propwash now. > This thread brings up some valid points, particularly that there is a lot of aerospace material that is *available* worldwide, but not all that *accessable* (due to bucks or perceived interest). Any publishers or libraries lurking out there want to take a crack at this? > > Won't comment on that. :) > > -- Andreas > > --- --- > Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org > 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu > Flint, MI 48502-1239 > Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ > --- --- - -- Randal Marbury AeroSpace Technical Research Associates Watauga, TX, USA http://ASTRA.home.ml.org ------------------------------ From: James Easton Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:16:04 -0500 Subject: Boscombe Down Incident An article in today's (UK) Independent newspaper may be of interest: Secret US spyplane crash may be kept under wraps by Christopher Bellamy and Timothy Walker. SAS scrambled to protect aircraft, whose existence is officially denied. A top-secret United States spyplane which flies on the edge of space at five times the speed of sound crashed at the British experimental airbase at Boscombe Down, Hampshire, in September 1994, according to a report in a leading military aviation journal. The SAS (Special Air Service), the report said, was scrambled to throw a cordon round the wreckage, which was flown back to the US two days later. The hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft, called Astra or Aurora, is believed to have been developed in the 1980s as a secret US government "black programme". Officially, the US denies the aircraft exists, although there have been many reports of mysterious sonic booms and sightings. This is the first report of such an aircraft crashing. The British Ministry of Defence and the US Defense Department both denied the story yesterday but David Oliver, the editor of Air Forces Monthly, said that Royal Air Force officers had been among the sources in a two-year investigation of the incident, and he was sure the report was true. "We have no doubt that an incident did happen on the day in question and it has never been satisfactorily explained by the authorities", Mr Oliver said yesterday. Air Forces Monthly is widely read in the MoD and in the defence industry, both in Britain and in the US. The report says the Astra (Advanced Stealth Reconnaissance Aircraft), or AV-6, or Aurora, crashed during take off on runway 23 at Boscombe Down on the evening of 26 September 1994. London Air Traffic Control Centre was alerted that a serious incident had occurred. Later that night a witness reported seeing a tarpaulin screen around the front of the aircraft surrounded by a number of emergency vehicles. The witness said that the rear section of the aircraft appeared to be raised, suggesting the nose-wheel had collapsed. Witnesses also saw and photographed men in plain clothes arriving during the night, who were later identified as SAS. The following day an Agusta 109 helicopter - one of four captured Argentine helicopters used exclusively by the special forces - arrived. "The SAS arrived twice", Mr Oliver said. The wreckage was kept under a tarpaulin in the corner of a hangar but was seen by witnesses when the doors were opened to bring out a Buccaneer aircraft. The next unusual event was the arrival of a giant C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft which is believed to have flown the wreckage back to the US on 28 September. Reports of the new aircraft have been around for five years. In April 1992 a US radio ham intercepted a transmission from an aircraft descending from 65,000 feet, a height only reached by the Space Shuttle and the Cold War spyplane the U2 (later renamed TR1). Concorde, the highest-flying and fastest civil aircraft, cruises at 59,000 feet. In August 1992 unexplained sonic booms were measured over the Netherlands, prompting questions in the Dutch parliament. The path of the aircraft suggested it had flown from RAF Machrihanish on the north-west coast of Scotland. In December that year The Independent reported claims by the crew of a boat in the North Sea that they had seen an Aurora and produced an artists impression similar to the latest impression in Air Forces Monthly. On other occasions radio hams intercepted transmissions from unidentified high-flying jets requesting permission to land at Machrihanish, though that airfield has now closed. The aircraft's shape is a perfect 70 degrees swept triangle so that the body itself provides lift, doing away with the need for conventional wings. Engines make a unique low frequency, very high amplitude "pulsing" sound. [End] (c) The Independent Newspaper This was passed onto me and as I'm not familiar with the "Agusta 109", I'm not sure if that should maybe read "Augusta" . James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: blackbird@telis.org (Jon Price (PJ)) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:54:42 GMT Subject: Is the list still alive?? Have seen no posts for close to a week. I sort of feel like the kid who went to school and came home to find the the family had moved and left no forwarding address. In the words of the best rock and roll band ever, "Is There Anybody Out There?" Jon Price (PJ) ********************************************************* You run and run to catch up with the sun but its sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. Sun is the same in a relative way but you're older. Shorter of breath and one day closer to Death. Pink Floyd **************************************************** ------------------------------ From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 04:15:30 GMT Subject: CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Hello: As you are all well aware there are continuing multiple copies of the skuk-works digest going out. Mark and I have tried everything we can think of to remedy the problem to no avail. My suspicions are that due to the long time it takes to look up addresses and the large # of incorrect addresses it is simply rescanning the mail queue before the initial run gets done, etc. MY solution to this is NOT elegant, but its all I can think of....Effective Sunday 3/16/97 I will be DELETING ALL USERS ON THE SKUNK-WORKS AND SKUNK-WORKS-DIGEST LISTING. IF YOU WISH TO RECEIVE THE LIST AND/OR DIGEST PLEASE RESUBSCRIBE BEGINNING ON MONDAY 3/18/97 @ 0600 CST (1200 GMT). I will force a final digest at the time we delete the names. To subscribe here are the commands to place in a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com skunk-works list: subscribe skunk-works you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works georgek@netwrx1.com) skunk-works-digest list: subscribe skunk-works-digest you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works-digest georgek@netwrx1.com) Mark and I will work on the method to most quickly purge the names from the list between now and then. I WILL BE REPEATING THIS MESSAGE DAILY FROM NOW UNTIL THE TIME THE DIGEST IS PURGED. I am sorry for the inconvenienced this causes anyone but we will hopefully fix the problems once and for all. Thank you for your understanding, ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 President/Consultant +1 414 541 8579 FAX Netwrx Consulting, Inc. West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com www.netwrx1.com - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDHH2gAAAEEAL9FWaYjjxtHJqFbq/3MAY5o2IUao+XCImBx/Ny+v5T/DVdM lQFo6BV0neJ9/RO1VYaM8Xm003x7HLXB2LqWwqfdxvxlUv4crKDL5iwTEdzbAD2w ZJ4bIjgUNAmK75RnNTaRoqswgEcRRu0XD6H/t7VgoYZKDcU+p5YN47tzGRtpAAUR tBJnZW9yZ2VrQHBtaWh3eS5jb20= =jdUe - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ From: Dan Zinngrabe Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:29:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Boscombe Down Incident No, it's correct. It's Agusta A109, an aircraft used by corporations and smaller militaries across the world. I have heard first hand reports within the past several weeks concerning the "incident", and several times the A109 was mentioned, as well as a Westland helo and a bizjet. Nothing much new on the aircraft itself I'm afraid. The only new info is that the wreckage looked "shredded, with a dixie cup core"- carbon fibre skins? Dan ------------------------------ From: Tom Robison Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 01:55:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Is the list still alive?? Jon Price wrote: >Have seen no posts for close to a week. I sort of feel like the kid >who went to school and came home to find the the family had moved and >left no forwarding address. In the words of the best rock and roll >band ever, "Is There Anybody Out There?" The list went dead for me too, I thought perhaps my employer was filtering my e-mail. None of the messages about the Credible Sport Herks got through to me last week at work. But I've subscribed from home and everything is fine, except for recieving duplicates of everything. Maybe all will be better after the list is purged and we all re-subscribe? Tom Robison Ossian, Indiana tcrobi@mindspring.com ------------------------------ From: michael.crutch@ukonline.co.uk Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:13:56 GMT Subject: The British SAS and Boscombe Down Hi all Sorry to harp on. Of the four A109 helicopters (only two of which, by the way, were captured from Argentina during the Falklands War) operated by the UK's Army Air Corps, all are assigned to 8 Flight of 7 Regiment, and nominally support the SAS's activities in the mainland UK (either as quick response a/c following terrorist incidents - the A109 being a particularly fast chopper anyway, as well as VIP transport from senior Army officers through to the Prime Minister). I have two questions to put back to those who are pushing these stories around (most if not all of which are not members of this mailing list), why can't a special forces helicopter route from a known special forces base on the south coast of England on normal business without being drawn into "The Incident" and if they did arrive during the night, how were they photographed by "witnesses"? Just so happened to have 3200 ASA film in the camera, eh?!!! It is extremely unlikely that Britain's elite troops were called in to guard an aircraft which lay stricken inside one of our top security airfields. It's a bit like calling in Delta Force to look after a broken black a/c at Groom Lake - it wouldn't happen! As I said earlier, sorry to harp on! Regards to all Mike ------------------------------ From: Jim Rotramel Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:26:45 -0500 Subject: Eagle Claw Aircraft According to 'Military Aircraft Serials of North America' by S. Mitchell and A. Eastwood published in 1991 by The Aviation Hobby Shop in Middlesex, UK, the aircraft lost during Eagle Claw were: EC-130H: 62-1809 RH-53D: 158686, 158744, 158750, 158753, 158758, 158761 with 809 and 761 being the acident aircraft, the remainder being abandoned. Jim Rotramel ------------------------------ From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:38:03 GMT Subject: CORRECTION -- Continuing Multiple copies of Digests Hello: As you are all well aware there are continuing multiple copies of the skuk-works digest going out. Mark and I have tried everything we can think of to remedy the problem to no avail. My suspicions are that due to the long time it takes to look up addresses and the large # of incorrect addresses it is simply rescanning the mail queue before the initial run gets done, etc. MY solution to this is NOT elegant, but its all I can think of....Effective Sunday 3/16/97 I will be DELETING ALL USERS ON THE SKUNK-WORKS AND SKUNK-WORKS-DIGEST LISTING. IF YOU WISH TO RECEIVE THE LIST AND/OR DIGEST PLEASE RESUBSCRIBE BEGINNING ON MONDAY 3/17/97 @ 0600 CST (1200 GMT). I will force a final digest at the time we delete the names. To subscribe here are the commands to place in a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com skunk-works list: subscribe skunk-works you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works georgek@netwrx1.com) skunk-works-digest list: subscribe skunk-works-digest you@domain.xxx (i.e. subscribe skunk-works-digest georgek@netwrx1.com) Mark and I will work on the method to most quickly purge the names from the list between now and then. I WILL BE REPEATING THIS MESSAGE DAILY FROM NOW UNTIL THE TIME THE DIGEST IS PURGED. I am sorry for the inconvenienced this causes anyone but we will hopefully fix the problems once and for all. Thank you for your understanding, ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 President/Consultant +1 414 541 8579 FAX Netwrx Consulting, Inc. West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com www.netwrx1.com - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDHH2gAAAEEAL9FWaYjjxtHJqFbq/3MAY5o2IUao+XCImBx/Ny+v5T/DVdM lQFo6BV0neJ9/RO1VYaM8Xm003x7HLXB2LqWwqfdxvxlUv4crKDL5iwTEdzbAD2w ZJ4bIjgUNAmK75RnNTaRoqswgEcRRu0XD6H/t7VgoYZKDcU+p5YN47tzGRtpAAUR tBJnZW9yZ2VrQHBtaWh3eS5jb20= =jdUe - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #31 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@pmihwy.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica