From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #36 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Friday, 21 March 1997 Volume 06 : Number 036 In this issue: Two new topics Re: Was Credible Sport Black??? Subscribers Re: Arizona "UFO" Re: Arizona "UFO" WAPJ on U-2 Re: Air Force One Re: Arizona "UFO" Re: Was Credible Sport Black??? Re: Arizona "UFO" Re: Arizona "UFO" Re: Arizona "UFO" Re: Arizona "UFO" See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ConsLaw@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:34:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Two new topics In order to get some momentum going in the "new" Skunkworks list, I have two new topics for discussion: Chip in on either or both. 1. How close was the XB-70 to being a "real" bomber? That is, how much work was done on the actual systems needed for it to fulfill the actual role of a strategic bomber, and when could it have reached service if it was funded? Can you use gravity bombs at mach 3? 2. Drag chutes: what happened to them? What were the trade-offs? How do the landing speeds and stopping distances of today's high performance aircraft compare to those of the '50s and '60s? Steve Hofer conslaw@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:57:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Was Credible Sport Black??? Thanks to Michael J. McLeish , I now also have the identity of the seventh lost RH-53D: BuNo 158693. (Oops, I forgot, I am supposed to write "Serial" not "BuNo".) :) That means that now only the surviving RH-53D, BLUEBEARD-5, is anonymous, even though the correlation between serials and call signs is also still missing. I also left out an explanation of an abbreviation: STAR = Surface-To-Air Recovery (Fulton STAR system). Greg, Thanks for the information from Francis K. Mason's "Lockheed Hercules" book. Now it seems to me that Ray Leader in his book "Colors & Markings of the C-130 Hercules -- Special Purpose Aircraft", C&M Vol.7, printed in 1987, has heavily relied on Mason's book/information, regarding Eagle Claw aircraft, even though Mason is not mentioned anywhere in the credits. The only serials of Eagle Claw aircraft listed there, are the ones also listed in Mason's book, with the exception of the MC-130E-Y, serial 64-0565, which Leader only hints at, by showing a photo of an aircraft, whose tail number could be "40565". I am not sure though, if the photo shows the right aircraft, because the "Rivet Yard/Yank" models were not supposed to have ever had the Fulton STAR system installed, while the pictured aircraft clearly shows the yokes on the nose. Also, according to World Air Power Journal (WAPJ) Vol.23, Winter 1995, MC-130E-Y '565' was brought to Mod 90 standard, without Fulton system, and is currently operational with the 1st SOS, 353rd SOG at Kadena AB, together with the other 3 "Yank"s and 2 "Swap"s (even though one of the "Swap"s, 64-0571, should be a "Yank" now, too.) A photo of '565' in that configuration is shown on page 111. I wonder if the aircraft would have been rebuilt and still be in use, after such an incident. Can anybody confirm that "Yard/Yank" and "Swap" models never had the Fulton system of the "Clamp" models, or if they were later 'de-moded'? Also, the first aircraft to nearly crash because of hitting the sand ridge was Republic-5, one of the EC-130Hs, while Dragon-3, the last MC-130E, plowed through the same ridge, just like Republic-5, but apparently not as severe. Republic-5 actually had to shut-down one engine on the way back, due to loss of oil. There are some errors in the description, though, compared to what is written in "The Guts To Try", which I regard as more accurate. One interesting tidbit is the mentioning of HM-16 as the RH-53D unit. According to Norman Polmar's "The Naval Institute Guide to the Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet", fifteenth edition: "Originally HM-14 and HM-16 were established in 1978 [at NAS Norfolk, VA] for operational deployments, but HM-16 was subsequently disestablished and HM-15 established at [NAS] Alameda [CA] for Pacific deployments." While the "US Navy & Marines Corps Air Power Directory" from WAPJ lists HM-14 and HM-15 both to be established in 1978, which led me to believe that HM-16 didn't exist very long, and was already disestablished in 1978. Does anyone know the exact date? Regarding the "blackness" of Credible Sport: Ray Leader only hints at the existence of the YMC-130H CREDIBLE SPORT aircraft, but does not mention the designation, the "Credible Sport" code name, serials or any specifics, for that matter. He certainly made them sound "very black". They were probably not "black" in the sense of the secrecy surrounding the original A-12s, F-117s or Tacit Blue, but they seemed to have been sufficiently "grey", that not much information, pictures and/or film material, had been available in the open. One of them, 74-1686, is actually displayed at the Museum of Aviation, at Robbins AFB, Warner-Robbins, GA, since 03/1988. I saw it there in 1992, but was totally unaware of its significance then. During the same trip, I also discovered (only by chance) my first A-12 (presented as "SR-71" and marked with "fake" serials) at NASA's Alabama Space & Rocket Center, Huntsville, AL. That was a real (nice) surprise. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:53:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Subscribers - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 10:19:42 MET Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:48:25 -0800 Lee Watters replied to an Andreas' posting which I did not get since I was unsubscribed: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:59:41 -0500 (EST) > Subject: For Black Triangle/Silent Vulcan fans... > > Anybody saw that (live or on tv)? > > - -- Andreas Is there any mean to get this posting ? Now, regarding this Arizona "UFO", my understanding is that they were military flares (see the posting below, which I found on sci.skeptic). J. Pharabod - - - - - From: gribble@primenet.com (Mr. Fun) Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranet.ufo, alt.alien.research,alt.paranet.abduct,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy.area51, alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: UFOs over Arizona, 3-13-97 Date: 19 Mar 1997 12:02:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Message-ID: <3330422a.17556416@news.primenet.com> Interesting thread.... I live in Phx and unfortunately didn't see the "lights". I did see extensive coverage of them on multiple tv stations over several days. Many of the videos were quite good and IMHO it is safe to rule out the idea that the REPORTS (not the event) were hoaxes. The "event", of course, is *probably* unknown. The Local news DID report comments from some military that they had been shooting up flares and that the UFO may have been the flares. Naturally, some people won't accept that explanation. There was one video that was only shown once on one station, to MY knowledge. And it was, of course, the CRITICAL video showing that whatever caused the lights it was almost 99.999999999999999% sure that it was a prosaic event and also that it was almost surely either a flare or a homemade hoax UFO. That video clearly showed the "UFO" and as the tape rolls you see the light in all it's glory INCLUDING the burning out of it. Yes, you clearly see the thing burn out and as it dies it's obvious that it's just something hanging in the air burning (like a flare or balloon with flare attached). You see it sputter at the end, grow dimmer, trail a little wisp of smoke that's visible in the dimming glow of the burning part, and then it's gone. So unless ET is now using spacecraft powered by the same chessy rockets used by Buster Crabbe years ago we can, IMHO, put this massive event to bed as one more instance of things being less (much less) then they might seem. ------------------------------ From: Tom Robison Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:13:59 +0000 Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" A couple questions about these orange lights... What were the weather conditions at the time of the sightings? Was it clear, or was there a cloud cover? Has Arizona been unusually dry this winter, i.e. is there a drought or near drought in progress? I'm wondering if these "UFO's" might be weather experiments, i.e. cloud-seeding with various types of pyrotechnics, such as silver-iodide flares or the like. Comments? Tom Robison tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN ------------------------------ From: Holm Friedrich Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:24:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: WAPJ on U-2 World Air Power Journal Vol 28 (Spring 1997) has an article of 48 pages about "U-2 - The Second Generation" by Chris Pockock. Interesting reading and lots of excellent photographs! WAPJ is one of the glossy, high quality and quite expensive magazines discussed here earlier - it's from England, of course... Holm - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Holm Friedrich holmjfbb@linux.zrz.tu-berlin.de Akaflieg Berlin http://www.zrz.tu-berlin.de/vereine/akaflieg "Wir Flieger sind eine ganz eigene Nation: Unsere liebste Jahreszeit ist das Fruehstueck!" - Hans Albers in "FP1 antwortet nicht" - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:42:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Air Force One Any Air Force plane the President flies in is Air Force One, but only when the President is flying in it. Somehow I don't think you're asking for information on every USAF plane that carries at least two people, even though all of those are potential AF Ones. I need to mention that the same works for the other services--Marine One, Navy One, Coast Guard One, etc. For non-military aircraft, I believe the callsign is US One. If it's the Veep, it's Two, not One. And if the President (or, I believe, the First Lady) isn't flying, there is no AF One. Rather, the plane uses its normal tail number. The point of this callsign is to identify the aircraft carrying the President to ATC and other aircraft, airports, etc, immediately and unambiguously. It's not an airplane identifier. Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 TomHun8054@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have info on Air Force One (beyond the Air Force Fact Sheet)? > ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:02:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" I DON'T CARE, DAMMIT. I HAVE BEEN PATIENT. I HAVE BEEN POLITE. I HAVE HAD ENOUGH! WOULD YOU _PLEASE_ TAKE THIS UFO STUFF SOMEWHERE ELSE? UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT LMSW BUILD THE DAMMED THING, IT DOESN'T BELONG HERE AND I'M GETTING SICK AND TIRED OF THE INABILITY OF SOME PEOPLE TO REALIZE THAT MAILING LISTS ARE DESIGNED TO ADDRESS SPECIFIC, PREDEFINED AREAS, RATHER THAN ANY NONSENSE A SUBSCRIBER FEELS LIKE BRINGING UP. YES, I'M SHOUTING. I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M GOING TO UNSUBSCRIBE TOMORROW IF THIS FOOLISHNESS DOESN'T STOP. IF I GAVE A RAT'S ABOUT UFOS, I'D BE ON THE UFO LISTS AND THESE MESSAGES WOULD BE EQUALLY ANNOYING DUPLICATES. IT'S ME OR THE UFOS. PEOPLE WITH BURNING URGES TO SHARE THEIR IDEES FIXE WITH A CAPTIVE AUDIENCE WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR DECIDING FOR THE ENTIRE LIST. THE SELFISH LACK OF RESPECT FOR SUBSCRIBERS TO THIS GROUP HAS REACHED THE POINT THAT I NO LONGER WISH TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE MEMBERS WHO ARE UNABLE TO CONFORM TO THE NORMS OF CIVILIZED BEHAVIOR. I'M NOT GOING TO GO AWAY MAD, I'M JUST GOING TO GO AWAY. Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... ------------------------------ From: Albert H Dobyns Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:22:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Was Credible Sport Black??? Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > Trimmed a bit of material... > During the same trip, I also discovered (only by chance) my first A-12 > (presented as "SR-71" and marked with "fake" serials) at NASA's Alabama > Space & Rocket Center, Huntsville, AL. That was a real (nice) surprise. I can't remember which book I read it in but I think A-12s operated out of Kadena did have tail numbers starting with a 7. Also I think these tail numbers were changed fairly often in an attempt to confuse people. So the one you saw would have had a number starting with "06" rather than "07" if the museum was using already published numbers. Don't know why they used the "7" other than a friend of mine asked the museum people and they said that's the number the Air Force had on it. ------------------------------ From: jgregor@bitbucket.engr.sgi.com (John Gregor) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:46:27 -0800 Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" I agree with what Mary said, I just wish I hadn't seen it twice. I agree with what Mary said, I just wish I hadn't seen it twice. In other words, you didn't fix the problem. In other words, you didn't fix the problem. - -JohnG - -JohnG ------------------------------ From: "Tom Burnett" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:31:11 +1000 Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" > I DON'T CARE, DAMMIT. I HAVE BEEN PATIENT. I HAVE BEEN POLITE. I HAVE > HAD ENOUGH! > > WOULD YOU _PLEASE_ TAKE THIS UFO STUFF SOMEWHERE ELSE? > > UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT LMSW BUILD THE DAMMED THING, I **************************************************************************** ******************************** Your point is well taken Mary, and in all fairness I would much rather listen to you on your worse day than to any manner of pointless speculation. But I would like to speak for the other side briefly and suggest that if you cannot prove LMSW is NOT producing any given vehicle or propulsion system, then every type of observed phenomenon is a perfectly valid topic for discussion since they MAY be building it. I am perfectly happy not to enter the realm of speculation as long as I have verifiable facts....What, exactly, IS the LMSW producing? If you will be so kind as to inform the general readership, the dreaded UFO menace will surely dissapear from whence it came. In the meantime, since my thought processes and opinions are not controlled and monitored by the government as are those of many in this forum ( who take great pains to proudly pointing out the fact) may I, in a respectful and non-sexist manner (and thankful that I have the legal right to do so), suggest that you research the following as a reasonable topic for discussion in the "new" SW forum as it shall exist without discussion of heretofore undisclosed LMSW vehicles: **************************************************************************** ****************** What is the definition of premenstrual syndrome (PMS) PMS is a cyclical and recurrent group of symptoms affecting the physical and/or mental well-being of the individual. It occurs after ovulation and often begins 16 days before commencement of menstruation, at which time symptoms usually subside. There are many theories as to the cause of this syndrome, however it is apparent that one of the fundamental reasons is in a direct relationship to hormal imbalances between oestrogen and progesterone and also the involvement of the hormone prolactin which comes from the pituitary gland. There are many symptoms of PMS 1. Physiological Depression, guilt, insomnia, changeable moods, anxiety, irritability, sudden angry outbursts, irrational thinking. 2. Physical Painful breasts, fluid retention, weight gain and bloated ness, headache, skin problems (acne, eczema), low blood sugar leading to fatigue, drowsiness and cravings for sugar, backache and increases in arthritic pain, constipation. Tom Burnett non-government employee ------------------------------ From: stevenb@xpedite.com (Steven Barber) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:02:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" Dear Tom, Do you really think that message will help? Mary has, over the years, been one of the best sources of hard, verifiable information and stories about the things most of us joined this list to hear about - high performance or otherwise exotic aircraft. If you are interested in aliens at Area 51, there are other mailing lists more appropriate than this one for that subject. If there are sightings of a phenomena like lights moving around over the countryside, it's probably not appropriate here until there's some indication that it's not a mirage or Army flares but may be caused by some aircraft or rocket. Or let's put it another way: I think that information on the triangle sighted over Belgium and the F16s being sent to track the radar trace is a valid topic. I don't think a bunch of lights seen in the sky is *until* the more obvious possibilities have been ruled out. These views have nothing to do with my employer, of course. 8^) - -- Steven Barber Tel: +44 (0)1904 690000 Database Administrator Fax: +44 (0)1904 345678 Xpedite Systems Ltd Clifton Moor Business Village York, England ~ ------------------------------ From: "Tom Burnett" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:35:08 +1000 Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" Dear Tom, > > Do you really think that message will help? Mary has, over the years, been > one of the best sources of hard, verifiable information and stories about the > things most of us joined this list to hear about - high performance or > otherwise exotic aircraft. If you are interested in aliens at Area 51, there > are other mailing lists more appropriate than this one for that subject. If > there are sightings of a phenomena like lights moving around over the > countryside, it's probably not appropriate here until there's some indication > that it's not a mirage or Army flares but may be caused by some aircraft or > rocket. > Or let's put it another way: I think that information on the triangle sighted > over Belgium and the F16s being sent to track the radar trace is a valid > topic. I don't think a bunch of lights seen in the sky is *until* the more > obvious possibilities have been ruled out. > > These views have nothing to do with my employer, of course. > 8^) > -- > Steven Barber Tel: +44 (0)1904 690000 > Database Administrator Fax: +44 (0)1904 345678 > Xpedite Systems Ltd > Clifton Moor Business Village > York, England > ~ > **************************************************************************** ********************************** Steve.... I agree. I do not think the message will do anything except (hopefully) generate random logical thought processes on the part of the participants. I believe I prefaced my comments with a message validating Mary's position and standing. However, please be advised that I have never posted anything to the general readership except messages concerning duplication trouble (or similar housekeeping situations). Apparently you do not notice who posts what, or you would have made that observation. I do not care about unsubstantiated UFO silliness at all, and the point of my posting was not to defend flare sightings. ...What I DO care about is the following excerpt from Mary's message : ..... THE MEMBERS WHO ARE UNABLE TO CONFORM TO THE NORMS OF CIVILIZED BEHAVIOR. I did not see any prior messages which did not conform to civilized behavior, and certainly nothing from Andreas and Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl. If members want to flame one another, I have no problem with that except that I, then, reserve the right to act in exactly the same irrational and immature manner as any other person who, by virtue of holding an advanced degree and possessing the ability to communicate via the written word, believe that my opinion is the only valid opinion. That is neither a cogent nor an appropriate position to defend. In fact, it is indefensable and I contest it as a matter of principle only, not as an attack against Mary Shafer for whom I have the utmost regard and admiration. Tom Burnett unemployed advanced degree holder/First Amendment advocate ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #36 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". 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