From: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Subject: Skunk Works Digest V6 #37 Reply-To: skunk-works-digest@pmihwy.com Errors-To: skunk-works-digest-owner@pmihwy.com Precedence: Skunk Works Digest Friday, 21 March 1997 Volume 06 : Number 037 In this issue: RE: UFO & Mary AWACS Lights Re: Arizona "UFO" Skunk-works charter: a modest proposal RE: modest proposal Idiot Post, was: Re: Arizona "UFO" Missing RH-53D Re: Arizona "UFO" F-14 Expert Needed Re: Arizona "UFO" Re: Arizona "XXX" Subscribers RE: Arizona "UFO" See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 08:18:49 EST Subject: RE: UFO & Mary Sorry Tom, I also have to agree with Mary on this one, UFO's devotees have their own message bases, and mailing lists. At last count , I found at least 5 lists for them. I too joined this list to read about the Skunk-works and their products. While I am also for free speech, I also believe that self-displine , if not used, needs to be enforced, in the case of a mailing list, that means moderated I don,t like moderated lists, but if it means Keeping valuable resources such as Mary, then I will be glad to volunteer as a moderator for the list. John Szalay Louisville Ky jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com john.szalay@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ From: WELLS Robert Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 15:14:00 PST Subject: AWACS Lights G'day there, I'm sitting here at work at the European Experimental ATC centre south of Paris at Bretigny s/ Orge. I'm looking out at the military airfield watching a large 707 based AWACS A/C carry out various take-offs. On each side of the fuselage, about halfway between the leading edge of the wing and the nose is a very bright light. Does anyone know their function? It is illuminated now (in the middle of the day). 'Avagoodweegend! @ -------- @ //// - ( G'day! ) @ (o o) -------- @ ----oOO--(_)--OOo-------------------------------------------------------- Rob Wells "Of course Australia was marked for glory, for its people had been chosen by the finest judges in England." -- Robert Hughes. @ INTERNET: wll@eurocontrol.fr CompuServe: 100272,3004 ------------------------------ From: habu@why.net Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:43:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" Tom Burnett wrote: > What is the definition of... That was entirely uncalled for. As much as we have been forced to endure irrelevant UFO posts, I much prefer them to this type "Tom-foolery"... All of us, and especially Mary, deserve better. As for sightings of black triangle shapes in otherwise recognizable aircraft formations, or tarp-covered shapes on runways, I'm open to hearing more. As for unexplainable lights in the night sky, I'd rather stick to the charter for this list. Please, Greg Fieser ------------------------------ From: "J. Pharabod" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 16:06:40 MET Subject: Skunk-works charter: a modest proposal Would everybody agree that the contents of the Federation of American Scientists/John Pike's web page: http://www.fas.org/irp/mystery fit with the specific areas which the skunk-works mailing list is designed to address ? J. Pharabod ------------------------------ From: JOHN SZALAY Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 10:45:04 EST Subject: RE: modest proposal > > Would everybody agree that the contents of the Federation of American > Scientists/John Pike's web page: > > http://www.fas.org/irp/mystery > > fit with the specific areas which the skunk-works mailing list is > designed to address ? > > J. Pharabod Yes, With RESERVATIIONS. John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com john.szalay@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ From: Ivan Baird Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:30:24 -0400 Subject: Idiot Post, was: Re: Arizona "UFO" I'd like to start by defending what Tom had to say - BUT, I can't!!! This was THE *most* offensive post I have seen in any 'higher' list I have been involved in!!! At 5:31 PM +1000 3/21/97, Tom Burnett wrote: >> I DON'T CARE, DAMMIT. I HAVE BEEN PATIENT. I HAVE BEEN POLITE. I HAVE >> HAD ENOUGH! >> >> WOULD YOU _PLEASE_ TAKE THIS UFO STUFF SOMEWHERE ELSE? >> >> UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT LMSW BUILD THE DAMMED THING, I >**************************************************************************** >******************************** > > Your point is well taken Mary, and in all fairness I would much rather >listen to you on your worse day than to any manner of pointless >speculation. But I would like to speak for the other side briefly and Take it somewhere else! If you want to take about UFO's, go to the UFO lists, newsgroups, etc.! >suggest that if you cannot prove LMSW is NOT producing any given vehicle or >propulsion system, then every type of observed phenomenon is a perfectly >valid topic for discussion since they MAY be building it. I am perfectly Yeah, and I MAY be building one in my back yard, so shall we discuss what those strange lights in my yard are??? >happy not to enter the realm of speculation as long as I have verifiable >facts....What, exactly, IS the LMSW producing? If you will be so kind as If you don't know - you don't *need* to know.... Even what Mary does know, I'm am sure she can't tell us - can't you respect that! >to inform the general readership, the dreaded UFO menace will surely >dissapear from whence it came. And pigs will fly, without showing up on radar.... > In the meantime, since my thought processes and opinions are not >controlled and monitored by the government as are those of many in this >forum ( who take great pains to proudly pointing out the fact) may I, in a >respectful and non-sexist manner (and thankful that I have the legal right >to do so), suggest that you research the following as a reasonable topic >for discussion in the "new" SW forum as it shall exist without discussion >of heretofore undisclosed LMSW vehicles: This is just so repulsive its amazing.... I personally have NEVER before been one to suggest that anyone be kicked off a mailing list, no matter what the insults, flames, or other 'digressions' - but I guess it was only a matter of time before filth such as this began to become a common occurance with all the 'newbies' getting on.... Since, as I understand it, this is an unmoderated list there is no one to appeal to in such a situation.... Or is there? There may not be a moderator - but there is a List Owner!!! In another list I am involved in (as more than just a lurker) there have been situations similar (not as bad) in the past - the List Owner was wise enough, and cared enough for his List to have removed such posters from the List. Possibly, with a warning first, but usually the errant thread (as this is turning into) was ended by the List Owner stating that such and such a user was removed and the thread should stop.... I'll probably never forgive myself for this, but can we DAMN WELL have this guy censored!!!! Mary, I hope this didn't effect your sense of reason to much - you have been, and always will be a valuable member of the List. It would be unfortunate if your contribution was downgraded to "said by Mary Shafer, former List Member, and Chief Engineer of NASAs Blackbird Project!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Tom, get a life and go away! Also, if you have the desire to flame me for this post, do it PRIVATELY - I'm Ivan Baird (mailto: Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Missing RH-53D Andreas, You might want to check the Av Weeks that came out right after the rescue mission failed (April 1980). One of them had a picture of what was alleged to be the only surviving RH from the mission, already repainted in reg markings. You could probably pull the BuNo/Serial # off this pic. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ From: Alun Whittaker Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:18:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC35E1.486343F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Burnett, you really blew it! I was working on a response to Mary's = message which, I think, offered reasonable arguments to counter her = blanket objections to UFO reports on the list. Then your piece of trash = arrived and I threw out my first draft and wrote... MARY, I SUPPORT EVERYTHING YOU SAY AND YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT HERE. I WILL = EARNESTLY SUPPORT ANY POINT OF VIEW WITH WHICH TOM BURNETT MIGHT BE = EXPECTED TO DISAGREE AND ENCOURAGE HIM TO LEAVE THIS LIST AT HIS = EARLIEST CONVENIENCE! Seriously Mary, on behalf of the male gender as represented on this = list, apologies. 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I have an interesting but esoteric question. thanks. patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ From: Mary Shafer Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:50:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Arizona "UFO" It's just as bad to assume that all men are responsible for one male idiot as it is to assume that all women are affected by a medical condition that some women have. Just because Tom is male doesn't mean any other male should feel he has any responsibility for Tom. OK, men? The only person responsible for Tom is Tom, as far as I'm concerned. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Alun Whittaker wrote: > Tom Burnett, you really blew it! I was working on a response to Mary's message which, I think, offered reasonable arguments to counter her blanket objections to UFO reports on the list. Then your piece of trash arrived and I threw out my first draft and wrote... > > MARY, I SUPPORT EVERYTHING YOU SAY AND YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT HERE. I WILL EARNESTLY SUPPORT ANY POINT OF VIEW WITH WHICH TOM BURNETT MIGHT BE EXPECTED TO DISAGREE AND ENCOURAGE HIM TO LEAVE THIS LIST AT HIS EARLIEST CONVENIENCE! > > Seriously Mary, on behalf of the male gender as represented on this list, apologies. > > Alun Whittaker > > > ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:50:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Arizona "XXX" I don't know why Mary's fuse blew, and I won't engage in a flame war here, but I want to point out that I sent the original post because it talked about a big, slow moving, triangle flying around in the US. If one would adhere to the charter of this list as rigidly as implied by Mary's and several following posts, then the majority of subjects posted here is off-charter. I am not sure why posting general information about Air Force One is so much more on-charter than what I posted -- but nobody complained about that. Unless I get a lot of letters from list subscribers, asking me to limit my posts to 100% on charter -- posts regarding LMSW aircraft and nothing else -- I will continue to post about topics that seem interesting and somewhat related, like unidentified, black, triangular aircraft, including the "TR-3A Black Manta", "Aurora", "Senior Citizen", "Silent Vulcan", and "A-17", the Boscombe Down incident, "Credible Sport" and "Eagle Claw" aircraft, and other black projects, like "Tacit Blue", etc. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:58:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Subscribers Ooops, sorry for the previous, empty message ... my intended post must have been getting lost somehow, so here it is again: There are already 5 "bad" subscription addresses in the Skunk Works mailing list. The following three people put their names, instead of their email address after the "subscribe skunk-works" line: tom mcdermott Bill McAdem Jim Brooker while Art Hanley apparently forgot to put in the second dash "-" between skunk-works and digest, and is now also subscribed as: DIGEST betnal@ns.net One other person is subscribed just as: digest Even though I don't think it makes any difference (regarding double-posts), could those 5 "addresses" be removed from the list? - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@raptor.csc.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.umcc.umich.edu/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ From: Alun Whittaker Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:00:22 -0800 Subject: RE: Arizona "UFO" From: Mary Shafer [SMTP:shafer@spdcc.com] It's just as bad to assume that all men are responsible for one male = idiot as it is to assume that all women are affected by a medical condition = that some women have - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----------------------- Well, in that case, back to business... YOU'RE WRONG AND PLEASE STOP = SHOUTING! As long as an Unidentified Flying Object remains unidentified and as = long as LMSW is in the business of making airplanes which try very hard = to be unidentifiable, then we should try to give odd, and possibly = silly, sightings at least the briefest benefit of the doubt. I don't see = that lights in the sky are any less valid a discussion topic than black = triangles or donut-on-a-rope contrails.=20 In fact, it seems to me, that the black triangle and silent vulcan = reports, which were once commonly dismissed as UFO nonsense, are now = receiving more serious consideration on this list - is that because we = are getting sillier or because they are getting harder to dismiss = (that's not a rhetorical question, btw). Now, of course, as soon as a UFO is identified as the personal = transportation of green polka-dotted missionaries from the = trans-dimensional planet Burnettia (or as airforce flares, or refracted = street lights) -- then, they definitely should be required to slide = quickly and quietly beyond of the purview of this list. All of the above notwithstanding. if it really is you or the UFOs, then = I guess they'll have to go!=20 Regards Alun Whittaker ------------------------------ End of Skunk Works Digest V6 #37 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@pmihwy.com". 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You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R, Kasica