From: owner-skunk-works-digest@ (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@eagle.netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V6 #43 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@ Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@ Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Saturday, April 5 1997 Volume 06 : Number 043 In this issue: AvWeeek item Jane's News Item Suitable topics for this list Pharbod Questions RE: X-36 info Northrop XST Photo North Sea Black Triangle 'Picture' Re: Air Force reveals black project! Re[2]: Air Force reveals black project! Re: Northrop XST Photo List Owner's Address Re[2]: Northrop XST Photo Re: List Owner's Address B-2 Spirit reaches initial operational capability New Air&Space article by Bill Sweetman [none] Darkstar Re: Re: Darkstar STS-83 Crew LWF, John Boyd and OODA Re: skunk-works-digest V6 #42 Precision high altitude strike......... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the skunk-works or skunk-works-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 17:22:01 -0500 From: Frank Markus Subject: AvWeeek item On page 23 of the AWST issue dated 3/32/97 which arrived today, there is a description of a new supersonic ramjet test vehicle that is being prepared for testing in 1999. Included in the description of the vehicle is the following: "Some of the technology to be used in the Hyper-X program has a tie to earlier secret U.S. Defense Dept. concepts for a Mach 4-5, long-range aircraft that should have replaced the Lockheed SR-71 (AW&ST Oct. 1, 1990)." Interestingly, the article goes on to state that the Hyper-X will be tested at speeds between Mach 5 and Mach 10. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 18:32:51 -0500 From: Frank Markus Subject: Jane's News Item I received the following item in Jane's News Briefs which attributed it to Jane's Defense Weekly: USAF defines 'silver bullet' force The US Air Force has begun to define its conceptual requirements for a follow-on aircraft for its F-117 and F-15E long-range interdiction fleets. A small force of new strike platforms, or 'silver bullet' aircraft, may already be in an advanced stage of development. On another matter, I have not received anything from the list in about a week. Is the list still alive (and I am dead) or visa versa? Someone please tell me whether this message reached them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:43:29 -0800 From: "Louis K. Scheffer" Subject: Suitable topics for this list As several people have pointed out, since the skunk works is secret, it's really hard to prove that any unknown phenomina is not skunk works related. Instead, we could assign a probability that (if the truth about an event could be completely uncovered) the event was related to the skunk works. Naturally, these probabilities are subject to debate, but I think the following figures are reasonable: Odds of a post being on-charter: facts about SR-71 and U2 100% claims with physical evidence that others may examine, ie. sonic booms over LA, photos of unknown aircraft 30% unidentifiable airplanes, airplane noises, contrails, etc., when seen by experienced observers. 10% unidentifiable airplanes, airplane noises, contrails, etc., when seen by inexperienced observers 1% unidentifiable lights at night 0.1% anything about aliens 0.001% My personal threshold for signal to noise is about 0.1 (I'm willing to look at and ignore 10 articles to find one I'm interested in), and I think that's about normal for this group. So my suggestion would be that a topic is on-charter if there is at least a 10% change that it really deals with the skunk works. Naturally, there will still be a grey area, and different people will interpret the odds differently, but I think this corresponds to what has historically been considered 'on-charter'. -Lou Scheffer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:15:04 -0800 (PST) From: David Lednicer Subject: Pharbod Questions > Yes, if that paper is the one I'm thinking of, it also has the ONLY > photograph of the Northrop XST that I've ever seen! It shows the > Northrop XST up on a RCS pylon. It's much more attractive than the > painting that appeared in AW&ST several years back (the Northrop XST > that is). Yes, that's the one. By chance, I happened to be presenting a paper at the same conference (on a CFD analysis of the P-51!), so I was there when Waaland presented his paper. When he flashed up the XST pic, I knew it was a first, but no one else in the room seemed to react. I wanted a copy of the paper, but he didn't have any, or ran out before I got to the pile. Later, I ran into him in an elevator, gave him my card and asked for a copy. A couple of weeks later it arrived. One thing I noticed is that it is lacking an AIAA paper number, which makes it hard to reference. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 97 07:31:52 EST From: JOHN SZALAY Subject: RE: X-36 info > Subj: X-36 info > > I know it isn't from the Skunk Works, but I need to find info on the > X-36.. anything would be helpful, all I have now is a photo of a small > model of it.. > > Thanks.. > > -Steve King > stevek@bmts.com Well two topicsfor the price of one. I found numerous links to X-36 information on the web. TRY http://ccf.arc.nasa.gov/dx/basket/storiesetc/X36ast96.html it has links and articles on the tailless aircraft. 2nd topic. Question was raised here recently about the names for other developers team names. Lockheed Skunk-works McDonnell Douglas Phantom-works John Szalay jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:24:57 -0500 From: jck@scd.etn.com (Jason Koval) Subject: Northrop XST Photo On Wednesday, 26 March Larry wrote: Yes, if that paper is the one I'm thinking of, it also has the ONLY photograph of the Northrop XST that I've ever seen! It shows the Northrop XST up on a RCS pylon. It's much more attractive than the painting that appeared in AW&ST several years back (the Northrop XST that is). ________ There is I think the same photo you are talking about in the latest issue of the Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine. There is an article about the development of the stealth aircraft in this issue. Has anyone out there read it and could you comment on the article? I would be interested to hear the opinions of qualified individuals who might be willing to comment. Jason Koval ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 08:53:10 -0500 (EST) From: ROTRAMELJE%AM4@mr.nawcad.navy.mil Subject: North Sea Black Triangle 'Picture' If you're bored and want a little light entertainment, may I suggest the following F-111 site. In the very end of their 'images' file there is a 'photo' depicting the 'North Sea' sighting. Kind of fun;-) http://iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au/~f111/ Jim Rotramel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 10:19:21 -0600 From: Wayne Busse Subject: Re: Air Force reveals black project! Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > > Finally a skunky news item: > > WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Pentagon today lifted the veil of secrecy from one > of its most secret or ``black'' aircraft programs ever. Only thirty of the > vehicles, known as ``Project Silly Putty'', were ever built. Very Good, I even started to bite. Wayne - -- Wayne Busse wings@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~wings ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:13:46 -0500 From: gregweigold@pmsc.com (GREG WEIGOLD) Subject: Re[2]: Air Force reveals black project! Me too! If it hadn't been from Andreas I wouldn't even have thought twice about it, but I had to read through the second paragraph before I was positive. Good one, Andreas!! GW ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Air Force reveals black project! Author: Wayne Busse at INTERNET Date: 4/2/97 10:19 AM Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl wrote: > > Finally a skunky news item: > > WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Pentagon today lifted the veil of secrecy from one > of its most secret or ``black'' aircraft programs ever. Only thirty of the > vehicles, known as ``Project Silly Putty'', were ever built. Very Good, I even started to bite. Wayne - -- Wayne Busse wings@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~wings ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 11:18:23 -0800 From: larry@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Northrop XST Photo On Wednesday, 26 March Larry wrote: >Yes, if that paper is the one I'm thinking of, it also has the ONLY photograph >of the Northrop XST that I've ever seen! It shows the Northrop XST up on a >RCS pylon. It's much more attractive than the painting that appeared in AW&ST >several years back (the Northrop XST that is). Jason Koval wrote: >There is I think the same photo you are talking about in the latest issue >of the Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine. I've read that Sweetman article in the current Smithsonian's Air & Space (very cool F-22A photo on the cover by the way even if the F-22 is not complete). I enjoyed the article and congratulate Bill Sweetman for the good idea to run these Stealth gurus down and write a follow-up story about the stealth competitions. It's interesting to read Ben Rich's book and then read Sweetman's article. This shows the importance of multiple sources. Personally, I would like to see an independent aircraft historian type write a book about this stuff. There probably is an official government history as well. Perhaps Jay Miller can comment. No Jason, the Northrop XST photo is not in the current Air & Space. For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, the Northrop XST was the competitor to Lockheed's HAVE BLUE entry, the Lockheed XST, which actually won the competition and evolved into the F-117A. The Irv Waaland paper that David mentioned is the only place I've ever seen a real photo of the Northrop XST. It would be nice to scan that rather small XST image (it's also very dark in some copies) and make it available here. I know of nowhere else where anyone even sees the significance of it. I think the picture you're talking about Jason is Dennys Overholser standing in front of the Lockheed XST which is mounted on an RCS pylon. That article also shows John Cashen and Irv Waaland from the Northrop XST team, but they aren't shown with the Northrop XST (unfortunately). Irv is shown in an office and John Cashen is shown in front of a B-2. Of course both of those guys went on to work on TACIT BLUE and ATB, and who knows what else. It would be interesting to ask Peter Merlin if he's heard what happened to the Northrop XST pole model. Maybe someone else knows. Regards, Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 12:29:28 GMT From: "Terry Colvin" Subject: List Owner's Address Would someone please send this information? ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: Jane's News Item Author: Terry Colvin at FHU2 Date: 2/04/97 12:28 No, I do not have his address. Perhaps I can send a message to the list and get this for future reference? Yes, I'll do that now. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Jane's News Item Author: Frank Markus at smtp-fhu Date: 1/04/97 18:40 It would appear that I have been dropped. I sent in a message (as specified) requesting that I be subscribed. I repeated the exercise today. But I have been unable to transmit a message to the new list owner. Do you have a reliable address for him (as opposed to the majordomo robot)? At 05:13 PM 4/1/97 GMT, you wrote: > Yes, received. List has been low-volume but with messages daily. * * * >On another matter, I have not received anything from the list in about a >week. Is the list still alive (and I am dead) or visa versa? Someone >please tell me whether this message reached them. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:13:34 -0500 From: gregweigold@pmsc.com (GREG WEIGOLD) Subject: Re[2]: Northrop XST Photo The TODAY show had a short segment on the -22 this morning. Interviewed the test pilot, the plane was in the background with techs working on it. Played some aerial footage while they were talking. Neat plane!!!! GW Columbia,SC ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Northrop XST Photo Author: larry@ichips.intel.com at INTERNET Date: 4/2/97 11:18 AM On Wednesday, 26 March Larry wrote: >Yes, if that paper is the one I'm thinking of, it also has the ONLY photograph >of the Northrop XST that I've ever seen! It shows the Northrop XST up on a >RCS pylon. It's much more attractive than the painting that appeared in AW&ST >several years back (the Northrop XST that is). Jason Koval wrote: >There is I think the same photo you are talking about in the latest issue >of the Smithsonian's Air & Space magazine. I've read that Sweetman article in the current Smithsonian's Air & Space (very cool F-22A photo on the cover by the way even if the F-22 is not complete). I enjoyed the article and congratulate Bill Sweetman for the good idea to run these Stealth gurus down and write a follow-up story about the stealth competitions. It's interesting to read Ben Rich's book and then read Sweetman's article. This shows the importance of multiple sources. Personally, I would like to see an independent aircraft historian type write a book about this stuff. There probably is an official government history as well. Perhaps Jay Miller can comment. No Jason, the Northrop XST photo is not in the current Air & Space. For those of you who don't know what we're talking about, the Northrop XST was the competitor to Lockheed's HAVE BLUE entry, the Lockheed XST, which actually won the competition and evolved into the F-117A. The Irv Waaland paper that David mentioned is the only place I've ever seen a real photo of the Northrop XST. It would be nice to scan that rather small XST image (it's also very dark in some copies) and make it available here. I know of nowhere else where anyone even sees the significance of it. I think the picture you're talking about Jason is Dennys Overholser standing in front of the Lockheed XST which is mounted on an RCS pylon. That article also shows John Cashen and Irv Waaland from the Northrop XST team, but they aren't shown with the Northrop XST (unfortunately). Irv is shown in an office and John Cashen is shown in front of a B-2. Of course both of those guys went on to work on TACIT BLUE and ATB, and who knows what else. It would be interesting to ask Peter Merlin if he's heard what happened to the Northrop XST pole model. Maybe someone else knows. Regards, Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:07:48 -0500 (EST) From: "George R. Kasica" Subject: Re: List Owner's Address My direct mail address is georgek@netwrx1.com. THe list is now residing at majordomo@netwrx1.com. George On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Terry Colvin wrote: > Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 12:29:28 GMT > From: Terry Colvin > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: List Owner's Address > > Would someone please send this information? > > ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ > Subject: Re[2]: Jane's News Item > Author: Terry Colvin at FHU2 > Date: 2/04/97 12:28 > > > No, I do not have his address. Perhaps I can send a message to the list > and get this for future reference? Yes, I'll do that now. > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Jane's News Item > Author: Frank Markus at smtp-fhu > Date: 1/04/97 18:40 > > > It would appear that I have been dropped. I sent in a message (as > specified) requesting that I be subscribed. I repeated the exercise today. > But I have been unable to transmit a message to the new list owner. Do > you have a reliable address for him (as opposed to the majordomo robot)? > > > At 05:13 PM 4/1/97 GMT, you wrote: > > > Yes, received. List has been low-volume but with messages daily. > > * * * > > >On another matter, I have not received anything from the list in about a > >week. Is the list still alive (and I am dead) or visa versa? Someone > >please tell me whether this message reached them. > > > > > > > George R. Kasica President Netwrx Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 27242 West Allis WI 53227-9998 (414)541-8579 VOICE --- (800)816-2568 FAX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 13:55:41 -0800 From: patrick@e-z.net Subject: B-2 Spirit reaches initial operational capability > 970386. B-2 Spirit reaches initial operational capability > > LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. (AFNS) - The Air Force's > newest bomber, the B-2 Spirit, reached its initial operational > capability April 1. > > Gen. Richard E. Hawley, commander of Air Combat Command, > made the announcement based on the 509th Bomb Wing's > demonstrated ability to operate, maintain and support the bomber > in the performance of its nuclear and conventional missions > worldwide. > > "This is a significant milestone in ensuring the future of national > defense," Hawley said. "The B-2's combination of low > observability, large payload capacity, bombing accuracy and long > range gives America a unique, unprecedented military capability." > > This combination allows the B-2 to penetrate sophisticated > defenses and threaten an enemy's war-making capability. It gives > the United States the capability to project power to any part of the > globe within a matter of hours and deliver combat power with > precision in support of warfighting commands, Hawley said. > > "Today our nation's deterrent force has been enhanced > significantly. This is a high-leverage weapon system," said Gen. > Eugene E. Habiger, commander in chief of U.S. Strategic > Command. "The B-2, in concert with our total bomber force and > our land- and sea-based ballistic missiles, sends a powerful > message to would-be aggressors. The B-2's ability to evade radar > and carry a heavy payload, coupled with the fact that it can launch > from the U.S. and quickly reach any point in the world, make it an > invaluable military asset." > > Initial operational capability comes after successful tests of the > Joint Direct Attack Munition, and an interim weapon with similar > capability called the GPS-Aided Munition, or GAM. In October, > three B-2s destroyed 16 targets using 16 GAMs from an altitude > above 40,000 feet. Last month a B-2 released two inert JDAMs, > marking the beginning of that weapon system's integration on the > B-2. Each B-2 can carry up to 16 GAMs or JDAMs. These 2,000 > pound bombs have the capability to strike within 20 feet of a > target. > > In the past the Air Force measured how many aircraft would be > needed to destroy a single target and now, the Air Force can look at > how many targets it can destroy with a single aircraft, Gen. Ronald > R. Fogleman, Air Force Chief of Staff, said recently. > > The B-2 Spirit is an integral part of the Air Force's bomber fleet, > which also includes the B-1B Lancer and the B-52H Stratofortress. > This bomber force gives the nation the capability to rapidly > respond to crises anywhere in the world with tremendous lethality, > at minimal risk to American lives. > > "This revolutionary advance in technology will help to ensure our > national security well into the next century," Hawley said. > > Thirteen B-2s have been delivered to the 509th BW at Whiteman > Air Force Base, Mo. A total of 21 aircraft will be delivered by the > year 2000. All B-2s will be assigned to the 509th BW. (Courtesy > of ACC News Service) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 15:51:18 -0500 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: New Air&Space article by Bill Sweetman In the new Air&Space there is a rather good article by Bill Sweetman detailing the development of both Tacit Blue and Senior trend. Definitely a must-get. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:55:37 -0700 From: Greg Subject: [none] "WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Pentagon today lifted the veil of secrecy from one of its most secret or ``black'' aircraft programs ever. Only thirty of the vehicles, known as ``Project Silly Putty'', were ever built." Please tell me this is an April Fools' joke. Greg - "Try being stuck on a desert island for ten years with a guy who could build a nuclear reactor from two coconut shells and a lime, but couldn't fix a four-foot hole in a wooden boat." -- Gilligan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 20:57:42 -0500 From: Drew Menser Subject: Darkstar Hello, I am looking for any information anyone may have on Darkstar. I have all I can find from the Skunk-Works WEB site and some articles I have clipped. I am looking to scratch build a flying (hopefully) scale model of one of these aircraft, maybe 1/6 scale. Any tidbit you have would be appreciated. I wish there were more I could contribute here, but find myself mostly "lurking" 'cause most of my information on the topics covered here come from here and other Internet sources which are most likely old info to most people here. Anyway , I really like the discussions on the various projects and aircraft. Thanks in advance. Drew - -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Drew Menser Colonial Die Corp. Bridgman, MI Baroda, MI dmenser@parrett.net http://www.parrett.net/~dmenser +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 22:31:00 -0600 From: wings@sky.net (Wayne Busse) Subject: Re: >"WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Pentagon today lifted the veil of secrecy.... >Please tell me this is an April Fools' joke. > >Greg Could it be to much of a stretch that it was released on April 1?? Project "Silly Putty"?? It was a Great Joke! They are usually so straightforward, that it played out wonderfully. I'm still laughing at the thought, that this is still probably circulating the net and getting people hyped up. ;-) Wayne Wayne Busse wings@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~wings ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:38:06 -0500 (EST) From: Mary Shafer Subject: Re: Darkstar There's one large photo, plus a contact sheet, at the Dryden Photo Archive, which can be reached from http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/ There's also a short news release about the crash. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end.... On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Drew Menser wrote: > Hello, > > I am looking for any information anyone may have on Darkstar. I have all > I can find from the Skunk-Works WEB site and some articles I have > clipped. I am looking to scratch build a flying (hopefully) scale model > of one of these aircraft, maybe 1/6 scale. > > Any tidbit you have would be appreciated. > > I wish there were more I could contribute here, but find myself mostly > "lurking" 'cause most of my information on the topics covered here come > from here and other Internet sources which are most likely old info to > most people here. Anyway , I really like the discussions on the various > projects and aircraft. > > Thanks in advance. > > Drew > > -- > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Drew Menser Colonial Die Corp. > Bridgman, MI Baroda, MI > dmenser@parrett.net http://www.parrett.net/~dmenser > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 16:54:35 -0800 From: habu@why.net Subject: STS-83 Crew The shuttle Columbia lifted off on Mission STS-83 today. I found this when browsing NASA's Shuttle Status web page: "Mission Commander James D. Halsell, Jr., (Lt. Col., USAF) is on his = third spaceflight, having served as pilot of both STS-74 and STS-65. He is a former SR-71 Blackbird test pilot and holds master=92s degrees in management and space operations." I wonder if, when he was flying the SR-71, he ever thought he would be flying faster and higher than possible in the Blackbird... Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 17:18:13 -0800 From: habu@why.net Subject: LWF, John Boyd and OODA The featured speaker at the Aero Club of Texas' meeting last night was Mr. Harry Hillaker, speaking on the Lightweight Fighter (LWF) program. He told of how he first met John Boyd and how the "Fighter Mafia" came to be. He also showed a series of slides on John Boyd's "OODA" concept (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) and how this became one of the driving forces behind the design of the YF-16 entry in the LWF competition. He also described some of the rules under which the LWF competition was held, and I found them to be almost "Skunk-like": * LWF was a "one-shot" with no promise of follow-on production contracts. * LWF was a technology demonstrator, proof of concept demonstrations and flight test included operational aspects of the design. * Emphasis on results, not on "procedure of program management" * More hardware, less paper. * NO Requirements - instead, they designed to goals. * NO Statement Of Work - instead, they had to build their proposal. * NO Mil-Spec Requirements - instead, they had to meet the intent of their design. * NO CEI - instead, they had to submit their best effort. * NO Data Requirements - instead, they submitted only their final report. * NO Formal Design Reviews - only incremental progress reviews. * RFP response was limited to fifty pages (40 technical, 10 management, zero substantiation). Tabulated Lift/Drag/Thrust data submitted separately, and wind tunnel models had to be submitted to NASA/USAF to verify data. * Hands-Off Adaptive Management - 'nuff said. * LOGO - (Limit Of Government Obligation) cost increases could not be passed on to the Government. Also, a lot of background on the "1v2" argument: One engine vs two, one tail vs two, etc., all backed up with slide after slide of design data. All in all, an interesting presentation with a rich history of an important time in aircraft design and development. Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 18:48:02 -0800 From: "Lee Watters" Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V6 #42 Just wondering where the digest disappeared to. Last one received was April 1. Hard to get my day started without it. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 03:12:32 -0500 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Precision high altitude strike......... Here's one for the group, considering either there's a server down or everybody's holding their breath for the USAF announcement on at least one black aircraft (and no, not the F-22)........ Hypothetically...... Let's say you had an aircraft that cruised subsonic at high altitude (50k+), was designed for very low RCS, and carried only one or two Paveway II LGBs. Your fleet of these aircraft numbers maybe 20. You can put a ATARS or TARPS type of arrangement in the weapons bay if you want. What on earth would you use it for?? I'm stumped. I've come up with a few things, but none makes much sense. Dan _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." (New York Times) - ---------------------------------------------------Dan Zinngrabe, Multimedia Software Author _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V6 #43 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to either "skunk-works-digest-owner@netwrx1.com" or, if you don't like to type a lot, "georgek@netwrx1.com". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for e-mail request by sending a message to majordomo@netwrx1.com with no subject and a line containing "get skunk-works-digest vNN.nMMM" (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). You can get a list of all available digests by sending the one line command "index skunk-works-digest". If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica