skunk-works-digest Monday, September 15 1997 Volume 06 : Number 075 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** News story Re: News story Discovery Buying Chips - More discussion Re: News story Re: Buying Chips - More discussion Re: News story C-130 Mailing List Re[2]: News story Re: Buying Chips - More discussion Re: C-130 Mailing List Re: C-130 Mailing List Re: Buying Chips - More discussion F-22 Info Re: Drawings of Tier-3?? Re: Buying Chips - More discussion Computerized flight controls Re: Drawings of Tier-3?? F-117 crashed in a Airshow News of the F-117 crash breaking news: F-117 crash... More News of the F-117A crash *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 09:14:10 EDT From: JOHN SZALAY Subject: News story Theres a media report out the states that the military is sending 3 special aircraft to Bosnia to "disrupt Serb media broadcasts" Would it be safe to assume, that these are EC-130E RIVET RIDER birds ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:15:44 -0500 From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: News story >Theres a media report out the states that the military is sending 3 special >aircraft to Bosnia to "disrupt Serb media broadcasts" >Would it be safe to assume, that these are EC-130E RIVET RIDER birds ? Well, I could tell ya, but then I'd have to shoot ya... However, since CNN is already reporting it, the answer is yes. Tom Robison, tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Airborne Communications Systems Hughes Defense Communications, 1010 Production Rd. Fort Wayne, IN 46808 Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not reflect the views or opinions of whoever might own me at the moment. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:50:55 -0500 From: Tom Robison Subject: Discovery This Sunday on Discovery, 9 pm Eastern (cehck your listings) STRIKE FORCE, a program about the newest "high-tech" aircraft. "See the cockpit of a B-2", they say in the promos, and learn the secrets of the new F-22. At the same time, I think, on CNN is their weekly show entitled IMPACT. This weel's show is about "Secret Warriors, the real-life Rambos". Tom Robison, tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Airborne Communications Systems Hughes Defense Communications, 1010 Production Rd. Fort Wayne, IN 46808 Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not reflect the views or opinions of whoever might own me at the moment. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:47:07 -0400 (EDT) From: ConsLaw@aol.com Subject: Buying Chips - More discussion Just to generally continue Art Haney's thread about the extended weapons buys and the freezing of technology: It really brings out the number one argument against the F-22. It's obvious (at least to me) that the F-22 is superior to everything out there, but the issue is: Is this the correct timepoint to be locking in technology for a 20 year weapon buying cycle.? The answer to this question isn't as obvious. Might it be possible (he asked rhetorically) to use the computer power (and superior manufacturing technology) available next year (or thereabouts)to design and build a better fighter than the F-22 in greater quantities than the F-22 for less money even considering the added costs of designing another plane? I don't know the answer to this question and I doubt if anyone else does either. I read that the Boeing 777 relies on a 25 Mhz Intel 486SX as its central processor because that is the best processor that was available when the design was locked. I shudder to think that our front line fighter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:54:52 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: News story At 09:14 AM 9/12/97 EDT, you wrote: >Theres a media report out the states that the military is sending 3 special >aircraft to Bosnia to "disrupt Serb media broadcasts" >Would it be safe to assume, that these are EC-130E RIVET RIDER birds ? > ========================================================== Yes, film at eleven. Check your local listings, Bosnia Daylight Savings Time. patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:09:10 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Buying Chips - More discussion At 11:47 AM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >Just to generally continue Art Haney's thread about the extended weapons buys >and the freezing of technology: It really brings out the number one argument >against the F-22. It's obvious (at least to me) that the F-22 is superior to >everything out there, but the issue is: Is this the correct timepoint to be >locking in technology for a 20 year weapon buying cycle.? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Interesting point. The F-117 is a plane that represents that analogy. It was built at the end of a narrow design window where computers were capable of 2 but not 3 dimensional design of a low observable airframe. Thus we have this unusual, yet highly effective design that was committed to being built. But we will never see another design like it as the plane represents "old" technology. Long live the Black Jet! patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:12:04 -0800 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: News story >Theres a media report out the states that the military is sending 3 special >aircraft to Bosnia to "disrupt Serb media broadcasts" >Would it be safe to assume, that these are EC-130E RIVET RIDER birds ? VOLANT SOLO might be more likely. Dan _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." (New York Times) ---------------------------------http://www.macconnect.com/~quellish _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:26:30 -0500 From: Tom Robison Subject: C-130 Mailing List Perhaps I'm shouting old news, but I just found out that there is a C-130 Mailing list. YES, a list dedicated to us Herky Nuts! Here's the info... Send mail to majordomo@spectrumwd.com In the message body type: subscribe c130mail That's it, don't put anything else in the body as it confuses the program You should receive a welcome E-mail with instructions how to unsubscribe whenever you want. After that whenever you would like to post a message to the list, all you have to do is send your message to: c130mail@spectrumwd.com Tom Robison, tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com Airborne Communications Systems Hughes Defense Communications, 1010 Production Rd. Fort Wayne, IN 46808 Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not reflect the views or opinions of whoever might own me at the moment. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 15:27:45 GMT From: "Terry Colvin" Subject: Re[2]: News story Special Operations Media System-B (SOMS-B) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: News story Author: skunk-works@netwrx1.com at smtp-fhu Date: 9/12/97 3:14 PM >Theres a media report out the states that the military is sending 3 special >aircraft to Bosnia to "disrupt Serb media broadcasts" >Would it be safe to assume, that these are EC-130E RIVET RIDER birds ? VOLANT SOLO might be more likely. Dan _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." (New York Times) ---------------------------------http://www.macconnect.com/~quellish _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:30:22 -0700 From: larry@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: Buying Chips - More discussion ConsLaw writes: >Just to generally continue Art Haney's thread about the extended weapons buys >and the freezing of technology: It really brings out the number one argument >against the F-22. It's obvious (at least to me) that the F-22 is superior to >everything out there, but the issue is: Is this the correct timepoint to be >locking in technology for a 20 year weapon buying cycle.? The answer to this >question isn't as obvious. Might it be possible (he asked rhetorically) to >use the computer power (and superior manufacturing technology) available next >year (or thereabouts)to design and build a better fighter than the F-22 in >greater quantities than the F-22 for less money even considering the added >costs of designing another plane? I don't know the answer to this question >and I doubt if anyone else does either. > >I read that the Boeing 777 relies on a 25 Mhz Intel 486SX as its central >processor because that is the best processor that was available when the >design was locked. I shudder to think that our front line fighter The answer is actually quite easy. You either didn't get my post on the F-22's processor chip (which I worked on) or you chose to ignore it. Let's assume you didn't receive it, as another person told me he didn't receive the post. Too bad, it explained some things about the capabilities of the F-22 processor component that not even the latest super chips can do. Your reference point, and I dare say most other people who have an opinion on this, seems to be from the standpoint of a person who has a more 'current' super CPU driven PC on his/her desktop at home or work. You hear this bit about an old CPU chip and then think "EGADS how terrible" and imagine trying to run you favorite DOOM or whatever game on an old 486SX. And you would be correct, it certainly would not be acceptable in many cases to run a recent piece of software on an old CPU! But that is NOT the environment in which the chips enbedded in these machines work! These chips are running what is known as 'Embedded' applications. For the most part they will run the same software for the rest of their lives. They are not part of the 'Reprogrammable' Market, which is the market the desktop PC manufacturers get their CPU chips from. Ebbedded CPUs are chosen ahead of time to match the execution requirements of the application they're running and the cost goals of the equipment too. An embedded processor vendor usually doesn't put the level of technology in an embedded proccessor that they put into a reprogrammable processor, because it is not needed. A case in point is the Boeing 777 example you cited. The application in that airplane is fixed. It will never change. A 486SX was picked because it can perform the job. If given the chance to do it with today's 300MHZ Pentium II you wouldn't do it because a Pentium II would be overkill, and it would be far too expensive. I would bet that there are even OLDER CPU chips in the F-22 doing other embedded applications. For example, I would bet that there are INCREDIBLY OLD 8-bit controllers (read that as 8-bit CPU chips like the 8051 or whatever) also in the F-22, embedded right inside certain subsystems (like jet engine controlers or whatever). Why? Because they can do the job and they cost under $1 apiece (probably a few tens of cents in mass quantities). So, this whole thing of looking at an embedded application and feeling like there is some injustice being done just because of the age of the CPU, is not a useful thing to do. What Art and others were complaining about was the AVAILABILITY of the F-22's CIP processor. THAT is the problem, as Intel is leaving (has left already actually) the military chip market and therefore being able to get these processors in the future, once you run out, is the question. It seems from some of the posters that Hughes is being forced to do a lifetime buy (in other words, buy all that you will need for production and spares and shrinkage and a fudge factor now). I am in the process of checking on this inside Intel. Larry The above represent my personal opinions and do not represent the official position of Intel Corp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:48:11 -0600 From: Earl Needham Subject: Re: C-130 Mailing List At 02:26 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Tom Robison wrote: >Perhaps I'm shouting old news, but I just found out that there is a C-130 >Mailing list. YES, a list dedicated to us Herky Nuts! Here's the info... Thank you a bunch! I've already queued the subscription message. I'm currently int eh Air Force (17 months until retirement) and I'm stationed at Cannon AFB, NM. However, my first tour was in the Marine Corps, at Cherry Point, NC. I belonged to VMGR-252, and we had KC-130F's & R's. Perhaps I'll even meet some of the old gang there... Earl Needham, KD5XB Clovis, NM Wood Badge at Philmont! http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/7582/ ICQ #925486 mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stan Brown" Subject: Re: C-130 Mailing List > >At 02:26 PM 9/12/97 -0500, Tom Robison wrote: >>Perhaps I'm shouting old news, but I just found out that there is a C-130 >>Mailing list. YES, a list dedicated to us Herky Nuts! Here's the info... > Unfortunately I seem to have mssed the original message on this thread :-( I am very interested in joining this list. Could some kind soul send me the list info? Thanks. - -- Stan Brown stanb@netcom.com 770-996-6955 Factory Automation Systems Atlanta Ga. - -- Look, look, see Windows 95. Buy, lemmings, buy! Pay no attention to that cliff ahead... Henry Spencer (c) 1997 Stan Brown. Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:18:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stan Brown" Subject: Re: Buying Chips - More discussion > >You either didn't get my post on the F-22's processor chip (which I worked >on) or you chose to ignore it. Let's assume you didn't receive it, as another >person told me he didn't receive the post. Too bad, it explained some things >about the capabilities of the F-22 processor component that not even the >latest super chips can do. > I also did not see the original post. I would really like to see your comments on this. Any chance of a repost? - -- Stan Brown stanb@netcom.com 770-996-6955 Factory Automation Systems Atlanta Ga. - -- Look, look, see Windows 95. Buy, lemmings, buy! Pay no attention to that cliff ahead... Henry Spencer (c) 1997 Stan Brown. Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:12:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Singer Subject: F-22 Info Here are some specs for the F-22. Item Maximum Deflection Rate of Deflection (deg plus or minus) (deg/sec) _______________________________________________________________ Ailerons 25 70 Rudders 30 80 Horizontal Tails -25 to +30 60 Vectoring Nozzles 20 40 Flaperons -20 to +35 70 Leading Edge Flaps 0 to +35 30 Inlet Bleed Doors 0 to +45 50 You may think that it is funny that the Inlet Bleed Doors are considered part of the flight control system. They are opened under certain flight conditions to help generate moments about the center of gravity. Just a bonus feature. Unfortunately, the thrust vectoring nozzles can not be operated in opposite directions (to help in roll control). This is not needed. There is no dedicated airbrake on the airplane. Instead, upon landing, the rudders are deflected outward and the elevators are deflected. I do not remember if any of the other surfaces are deflected. This creates enough drag to help slow the airplane. One quick story about the first flight. When the F-22 went from 15,000 feet to 20,000 feet, the two F-16 chase planes could not keep up despite being in afterburner. This was despite the fact that the F-22 was in less than full military power! In the evaluation phase, the YF-22 demonstrated controlled flight up to 63 degrees AOA. I got all this information from a Lockeed representative who was giving a seminar at the University of Michigan. Dan Singer dasing@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 23:25:21 -0300 From: Felipe Salles Subject: Re: Drawings of Tier-3?? On the same line: could this Lockheed patent be the "heart" of the "Pumpkinseed" aircraft? http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/5546744 Comments anyone? Felipe Dan Singer wrote: > I was looking at IBM's patent web site and found something that I > thought > y'all might be interested in. The patent is by Lockheed and is for an > all > wing UAV. From what has been said, it looks like a Tier-3. > > The URL is: > > http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/D382851 > > You will notice that the patent was issued on Aug. 26, 1997. > > Dan Singer > dasing@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:36:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John Stone Subject: Re: Buying Chips - More discussion Hello All, Larry wrote..... >These chips are running what is known as 'Embedded' applications. For the most >part they will run the same software for the rest of their lives. They are not >part of the 'Reprogrammable' Market, which is the market the desktop PC >manufacturers get their CPU chips from. - ----snip---- >it is not needed. A case in point is the Boeing 777 example you cited. The >application in that airplane is fixed. It will never change. A 486SX was >picked because it can perform the job. If given the chance to do it with >today's 300MHZ Pentium II you wouldn't do it because a Pentium II would be >overkill, and it would be far too expensive. This may be a stupid question, (it probably is....) But on these fly-by wire and virtually computer controlled aicraft, 777, F-22 and the like, I'm assuming they have redundant computers, as what happens if one of the computers that controls flight controls freezes up? It obviously not like at home where you restart the box and start over, it would be a little harder at 40,000 ft! Or is this a different situation as they are running only say an aspect of the flight controls, and then another inbedded chip is running another aspect of the flight controls, the as opposed to a home pc that is running photoshop, illustrator, word processing program and browsing at the same time and crashes periodically....? Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:11:16 -0600 From: Earl Needham Subject: Computerized flight controls At 11:36 AM 9/14/97 -0400, John Stone wrote: >This may be a stupid question, (it probably is....) But on these fly-by >wire and virtually computer controlled aicraft, 777, F-22 and the like, I'm >assuming they have redundant computers, as what happens if one of the >computers that controls flight controls freezes up? It obviously not like >at home where you restart the box and start over, it would be a little >harder at 40,000 ft! The single one I am slightly (read that again: SLIGHTLY) familiar with runs four flight control computers. The overall system goes with the "majority vote". If one quits, the other three control the aircraft. If TWO go bad, they usually go bad in different ways, so the "vote" still favors the good computers. If THREE go bad, all bets are off. But that would be very unlikely. Earl Needham, KD5XB Clovis, NM Wood Badge at Philmont! http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/7582/ ICQ #925486 mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, Pi Chi '76 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:07:12 -0700 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: Drawings of Tier-3?? Felipe Salles wrote: > > On the same line: could this Lockheed patent be the "heart" of the > "Pumpkinseed" aircraft? > > http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/5546744 > > Comments anyone? > > Felipe > 1. There has never been any evidence for the existance of the so-called "Pumpkinseed" aircraft. In fact, the first mention of this "external burning" aircraft was in a description of a fictional "black" aircraft in a 1990 AvLeak. In the article it was stated numerous times that the aircraft was hypothetical in nature. A year or so later Popular Mechanics ran an article on black aircraft that was basically a rehash of AvLeak articles. Their description of the "Pumpkinseed" never stated that it was hypothetical. Thus, the "pumpkinseed" is an example of modern folklore- a blatantly fictional story picked up by the masses and spawning a hundred "sightings" (none of which have ever been substantiated nor even witnessed by more than one observer at a time). 2. While that patent is indeed for a PDE (and LMTAS has quite a few patents on those), nbote the date. The patent was filed right after General Dynamics Ft. Worth became part of Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems- indicating that all of the work done on this PDE was done by GD and not Lockheed. Lockheed's own efforts developing PDEs date back to the late 1970s, though finding documentation of these programs in the open literature is difficult, to say the least. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:15:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Wei-Jen Su Subject: F-117 crashed in a Airshow Sad news, a crashed of F-117 in Baltimore Airshow this Sunday. For more information, check: http://cnn.com/US/9709/14/plane.crash/ May the Force be with you Su Wei-Jen E-mails: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu wjs@webspan.net - --------- IRC is the first step of Vulcan mind "melt" I said that :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:25:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: News of the F-117 crash CNN showed (only once) a very good amateur video of the F-117 crash at Baltimore, MD, which pretty much showed the complete accident. I didn't tape it then, and they haven't replayed it in the last 2 hours, so some of my observations might be inaccurate! The F-117A made a left-to-right flyby, pulled up slightly -- I would guess 1 to 2 Gs max -- when the port (left) wing's aileron (or flap) ripped off the aircraft, followed by some smaller debris. The aircraft decelerated and went into a nose-up, high alpha attitude, with the left wing down, rolled over to the left, but leveled out in the same direction it flew, with most of its forward speed dissipated. Some white smoke from the engines or maybe kerosene from the wing tanks was visible in a plume during this maneuver. It seemed to me that the pilot had some level of control, because the aircraft seemed to stay in a sort of 'falling leaf motion', like a flat spin, with the nose pointing for most of the time in the same direction (as the flight path), but oscillating around the pitch axis. After about 4 or so seconds, during which the aircraft (slowly) lost altitude the pilot ejected, which resulted in the aircraft to nose down and roll-over to the right? The pilot is said to have been treated for minor back injuries. Four bystanders on the ground are said to have incurred minor injuries, and 2 houses were damaged or destroyed. The aircraft crashed pretty much intact (apparently without much forward motion) and even though it exploded on impact, the burnt-out wreckage was clearly recognizable as an F-117A on the overhead helicam view. The tail and the right wing seemed basically intact. Some info can be found on the CNN web page at: www.cnn.com/US/9709/14/plane.crash - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:24:00 -0700 From: "Michael J. Poirier" Subject: breaking news: F-117 crash... MIDDLE RIVER, Md —An F-117 stealth fighter broke apart during an air show performance and crashed into two houses Sunday, setting both on fire and causing four minor injuries on the ground. The pilot ejected safely. point to: http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/stealth914/index.html [please post better coverage when found...] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: More News of the F-117A crash Apparently, my earlier post about the crash has not been sent out by the Skunk Works List server yet, so here is an updated version of mu previous post. Actually, it seems that several posts got lost, lately -- is there a problem with the new software, George? Anyway, this delay gave me some time to reflect on the scene, and watch the (other two, not as good) videos of the crash, which CNN shows now, and which I have taped. They also added some more information, specifically, that this accident was, according to a Pentagon spokes person, the third major mishap of an F-117 this year, even though the first airframe loss. This seems to indicate that the two burned out F-117s have been or will be repaired. CNN showed (only once) a very good amateur video of the F-117 crash at Baltimore, MD, which pretty much showed the complete accident. I didn't tape it then, and they haven't replayed it anymore since (at least when I was watching), and the other two videos are of much lower quality. The F-117A made a (not too low level) flyby, pulled up slightly -- I would guess 1 to 2 Gs max -- when a part of the port (left) wing was ripped off the aircraft and fell down, trailing some kerosene. That apparently lead to the F-117A making a snap-roll to the left, which seemed to have put so much stress on the left wing, that it completely came off, and a lot of fuel was discharged. The left wing tumbled down at about the same speed as the rest of the aircraft. The snap-roll decelerated the aircraft, and left it nearly stationary, with most of its forward speed dissipated. The aircraft stayed in a sort of 'falling leaf motion', like a flat spin, with the nose pointing for most of the time in the same direction (as the flight path), while the aircraft oscillated around the pitch axis, at about +/- 30 to 40 degrees. About 18 seconds after the first sign of a problem (parts coming off, snap roll and kerosene cloud), during which the aircraft (relatively slowly) lost altitude, the pilot ejected finally (while in a nose high attitude). The aircraft nosed down and up again, the right wing dropped, and the aircraft hit the ground, apparently tail down and with nearly no forward speed, about 5 seconds after the pilot ejected. The pilot is said to have been treated for minor back and neck injuries. Four people on the ground are said to have incurred minor injuries, and 3 houses, a garage and 2 cars were damaged or destroyed. Several houses were evacuated, and the USAF has established a 'National Security Zone' around the accident scene. The 'black box' FDR (Flight Data Recorder) has been recovered. The aircraft crashed pretty much in one piece and even though it exploded on impact, the burnt-out wreckage was clearly recognizable as an F-117A on the overhead 'helicam' view. The tail and the right wing seemed basically intact, even though the left tailfin was broken off, laying on the ground. The 'HO' on that tailfin was easily recognizable, but the tail number was too small and unsharp. It might have ended with a '3', though. Neither the pilot's name, nor his squadron nor the aircraft's tail number nor its squadron were mentioned, only that it was one of the 'dedicated' air show aircraft, which are temporarily based at Langley, AFB, VA. Some info can also be found on the CNN web page at: www.cnn.com/US/9709/14/plane.crash - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V6 #75 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "skunk-works-digest-request@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. 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