skunk-works-digest Tuesday, October 7 1997 Volume 06 : Number 080 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** d21 and f104 Re[2]: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) Re: d21 and f104 Re: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) Re: Sonic Boom on Land Recent magazines Robot Warriors Re: d21 and f104 RE: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) Re: d21 and f104 RE: Stealth Aircraft Design Re: Some new books Re: d21 and f104 RE: Recent Military Aircraft Crashes [none] Re: your mail Re: your mail Re: re: overexposed F-117s Re: d21 and f104 Re: re: overexposed F-117s re: overexposed F-117s RE: Recent Military Aircraft Crashes Re: overexposed F-117s *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:03:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Jacobovits Subject: d21 and f104 The Department of Aerospace Engineering at the University of Michigan is getting a D-21 spy drone and an F-104 StarFighter this spring. I am coordinating their arrival and installation as museum pieces. Of course, I am sure these two pieces of hardware will also be the source of student lab projects for years to come. Does anybody know anything interesting about the D-21? I have all ready seen many pictures. I got its operational history off of John Stone's page at http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html Here is the rest of the info I have: I read somewhere that the concept was created when Powers' U2 was shot down and the president banned manned overflight of Russia. When they were launched off of the B-52, the drones were strapped on to rockets that boosted them to the altitude and speed (about 80K feet and Mach 3 I would guess) needed for their ramjets to engage. There is one on display at the Blackbird Airpark in Palmdale There is one on display at the Boeing Museum of Flight in Seattle. (Mounted on the last M-12 no less, check out the small picture on their site www.museumofflight.org) There were covers shaped like a giant spike on the intake and exhaust of the ramjet while it was mated to a mother-ship. They were explosively removed when the drone was launched. I have heard and read various quotes for the basic specs of the D-21. Average is about 42 feet long with a 19 foot wing span. Weight estimates range from 6,000 lb to 50,000 lb (museum of flight - I am sure that is a typo on their site). I am rather interested in its unfueled weight. I have seen max speed estimates ranging from Mach 3.5 to over Mach 4. Does anybody know anything else interesting? I am getting more technical information about how to mount it on something or hang it from the ceiling, and how to transport it by truck from other people. So nobody needs to volunteer that sort of information. Thanks, Bye for now, Aaron J aaronjj@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:03:29 -0400 From: gregweigold@pmsc.com (Greg Weigold) Subject: Re[2]: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) Considering the thread.... I had to interject something I got from another thread recently... If a stealth aircraft crashes in the woods, can anybody hear it? :-) Greg ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) Author: Brett Davidson at INTERNET Date: 10/5/97 12:08 PM >confidential information even after three years of being filmed. He said >the exhausts of the B-2 give a very big infrared signal. I think maybe it >is because the B-2 was not flying in a "stealth mode". Any comments? > Speaking from pure prejudice, I doubt that there is such a thing as a specific "stealth mode." A stealthy aircraft would spend long periods performing as a stealth aircraft and would therefore be optimised by its designers to be as efficient as possible in that specific role. Most stealth is passive and airframe-related anyway: switching stealth off and on like a Romulan cloaking device would only make sense if stealth was a quality that could be installed like a stereo. - --Brett ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:37:50 -0700 From: Speed Racer 71 Subject: Re: d21 and f104 Aaron Jacobovits wrote: > > Does anybody know anything interesting about the D-21? With all due respect to John Stone's page, Jay Miller's chapters in "Lockheed's Skunk Works" history have the best info I have seen... Greg Fieser "I drive way too fast to worry about things like cholestoral..." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:48:47 -0700 From: Speed Racer 71 Subject: Re: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) Brett Davidson wrote: > Speaking from pure prejudice, I doubt that there is such a thing as a > specific "stealth mode." ... Actually I believe there is such a thing. Our group received a(n unclassified) briefing on the B-2 and the Northrop rep stated that, when in "stealth" mode, the split rudder-vator-whatevers remain closed to lower the RCS - control movements are achieved through differential throttle settings. This is automatically done by the FCS when "stealth" mode is selected and is transparent to the pilots - they don't manually adjust the throttles... Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:15:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Re: Sonic Boom on Land Just because it was mentioned here, both Land Speed Record teams have web pages, which are updated regularly: * US team -- Spirit Of America: www.SpiritOfAmerica.com * UK team -- Thrust SSC: ThrustSSC.Digital.co.uk (Upper/Lower case is ignored by most Name Servers) - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:17:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Recent magazines Some news from the magazine front: The latest Lockheed Martin Skunk Works STAR, Vol. 7, No. 9, September 26, 1997, has several interesting articles, including: * F-22 Raptor first flight; * F-117 crash report, stating that F-117s are still scheduled to be at the Edwards AFB open house on October 18/19; * LMSW received Spaceplane contract, and an additional development contract for the X-33 to carry Boeing's 'Refly' space maneuver vehicle externally (piggy back, like 'Brilliant Buzzard'); * JASSM roll-out confirmed (no photo, just drawing); * Aerial photo of Palmdale airport complex, including Skunk Works facilities; The last Combat Aircraft, Vol. 1, No. 3, September 1997, has a couple of interesting bits: * Open Skies Visitor (with photo of Ukrainian An-30, which one of these days may very well fly over a well known, secret air base in Nevada); * The USAF Fleet at Fifty (with photos of SR-71A, U-2S, YF-22A, B-2A); The latest AirForces Monthly (AFM), No. 115, October 1997, has several small news items and articles: * B-2 -- unstealthy when it rains! (little bit outdated, that report); :) * Predators -- another step forward (15th RS has been established); * Holloman's Tornados (no F-117s, though); * Roving Sands '97 (including US Army Mil-24s and Mil-2, as well as another unique aircraft, a homebuilt (?) Rutan Varieze 'VZ-10', tail number is '00241' -- maybe '90-0241'); Air&Space Smithsonian, Vol. 12, No. 4, October/November 1997, has the following two articles: * Tankers (about the history of US(AF) aerial refuelling); * Watson's Whizzers (about testing captured Me 262s); * Free USAF 50th anniversary poster (most of the drawings are really bad, though!) Of course Aviation Week (AW&ST) and Flight International had also several interesting article recently, but they will have to wait a little bit. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 02:18:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Robot Warriors The Discovery Channel showed on October 4, a very interesting show as part of their "Sci-Trek" series, with the title: "Robot Warriors". They will repeat the episode apparently next Saturday, October 11, at 6:00 PM EST. The show was about UAVs -- but the term UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) was used very loosely, encompassing target drones, decoys, RPVs (Remotely Piloted Vehicles), and even cruise missiles. Vehicles featured included: * Lockheed Skunk Works D-21 (including launch from M-21); * LMSW/Boeing DarkStar (including successful first flight and crash on its second flight attempt, as well as the second prototype inside of LMSW's Helendale RCS test facility, which is surprisingly roomy!); * various versions of TRA Firebees (BQM/MQM/AQM-34s, flown in SEA and in the USA, including launches of 'Stubby HOBO' and AGM-65 Maverick missiles); * TRA GlobalHawk (unpainted and incomplete, before its official roll-out); * GA-ASI Predator (at El Mirage, CA, Ft. Huachuca, AZ, Indian-Springs, NV, and in Bosnia); * Boeing (McDonnell Douglas) X-36A (hiding the still classified thrust vector exhaust nozzle); * various Israeli drones and UAVs (Pioneer, Hunter, Searcher, Scout); * Rockwell International HiMAT; * Bell Eagle Eye; * Northrop BQM-74 Chukar; * Aerovirnment Pathfinder and MicroUAVs; Besides some bloopers, inaccuracies and generalizations, including calling the Wright Flyer the "first powered aircraft" and the M-21, as usually, an "SR-71", one of the most obvious errors (for Skunk Workers), was the "three-man" M-21. :) Very good footage, and many interesting tidbits, especially all those interview partners! Definitely a must see (or tape), next Saturday. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www..ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:01:01 +0000 From: jwp@lubrizol.com Subject: Re: d21 and f104 Aaron Jacobovits wrote: > > The Department of Aerospace Engineering at the University of Michigan is > getting a D-21 spy drone and an F-104 StarFighter this spring. I am > coordinating their arrival and installation as museum pieces. Of > course, I am sure these two pieces of hardware will also be the source of > student lab projects for years to come. > > Does anybody know anything interesting about the D-21? I have all ready > seen many pictures. I got its operational history off of John Stone's > page at http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html > > Here is the rest of the info I have: > > > There were covers shaped like a giant spike on the intake and exhaust of > the ramjet while it was mated to a mother-ship. They were explosively > removed when the drone was launched. > Although they planned covers early on, there was concern about ingestion of pieces of the cover. They found that if they left the covers off they could use the D-21 engine as a third engine to get mothership up to the needed speed. The fuel on the D-21 could be topped off in flight from the mothership before release. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:43:27 -0400 From: "Szalay, John P (GEA, 022708)" Subject: RE: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) > ---------- > From: Speed Racer 71[SMTP:habu@why.net] > Reply To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Sent: Monday, October 06, 1997 12:48AM > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: Re: Stealth Aircraft Design (fwd) > > Brett Davidson wrote: > > Speaking from pure prejudice, I doubt that there is such a thing as > a > > specific "stealth mode." ... > > Actually I believe there is such a thing. Our group received a(n >unclassified) briefing on the B-2 and the Northrop rep stated that, when >in "stealth" mode, the split rudder-vator-whatevers remain closed to >lower the RCS - control movements are achieved through differential >throttle settings. This is automatically done by the FCS when "stealth" >mode is selected and is transparent to the pilots - they don't manually >adjust the throttles... > > Greg Fieser I wonder how much of that work in the FCS/throttle control system was a result of the DC-10 crash in Iowa, and the work done at NASA that came from that ? I,m going to have to dig into the archives to check the NASA report Hummmmmmmmmmmmm. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 05:35:37 -0800 From: John Stone Subject: Re: d21 and f104 Greg Fieser wrote: > With all due respect to John Stone's page, Jay Miller's chapters in > "Lockheed's Skunk Works" history have the best info I have seen... Couldn't agree more! Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:38:16 -0400 From: "Szalay, John P (GEA, 022708)" Subject: RE: Stealth Aircraft Design >control movements are achieved through differential throttle settings. >This is automatically done by the FCS when "stealth" mode is selected >and is transparent to the pilots - they don't manually adjust the >throttles... > Greg Fieser - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ok here are the URL references from the archives concerning the > FCS/throttle control programs. > > http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/EAO/PressRelease/1995/95-19.html > > http://spacelink.nasa.gov/NASA.News/NASA.News.Releases/ > > Previous.News.Releases/93.News.Releases/93-04.News.Releases/93-04-22C > > John Szalay > john.szalay@appl.ge.com > jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com > > > Disclaimer: > If you think I speak for my employer, you have a weird view of > reality. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:13:37 -0800 From: John Stone Subject: Re: Some new books Andreas wrote: >Actually, it is Crickmore's second (?) SR-71 book from 1987, originally >titled: "SR-71 Blackbird" with the subtitle: "Lockheed's Mach 3 Hot Shot", >which consists basically of 120 color photos with captions. The new title: >"Lockheed SR-71" and subtitle: "The Mach 3 Blackbird", is definitely >misleading, and their advertisement is totally wrong, because the book does >not include anything near the promised: "Full details on the design and >development features of this unique aircraft." You are correct Sir! ooooppppssssss! I'll slink back to my desk now! Best, John | / ^ \ ___|___ -(.)==<.>==(.)- --------o---((.))---o-------- SR-71 Blackbird U-2 Dragon Lady John Stone jstone@thepoint.net U-2 and SR-71 Web Page:http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:35:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Bman306@aol.com Subject: Re: d21 and f104 > There were covers shaped like a giant spike on the intake and exhaust of > the ramjet while it was mated to a mother-ship. They were explosively > removed when the drone was launched. Although they planned covers early on, there was concern about ingestion of pieces of the cover. They found that if they left the covers off they could use the D-21 engine as a third engine to get mothership up to the needed speed. The fuel on the D-21 could be topped off in flight from the mothership before release. Another reason why the covers were left off was that during testing, a Blackbird and the D-21 suffer damage due to the pyrotechnic charge and the debris from the the inlet cover departing at speed. Bill Fong Bman306@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:57:06 -0500 From: "Lynch, Brian" Subject: RE: Recent Military Aircraft Crashes -----Original Message----- From: Lynch, Brian Sent: Monday, October 06, 1997 9:46 AM To: 'brett@arch.vuw.ac.nz' Subject: Recent Military Aircraft Crashes Brett, It is my reasoned and researched opinion that the alarming increase in military aircraft accidents is a direct result of the feminist and homosexual attacks which have been made on the military. The political pressure to place women in certain positions has resulted in personnel policies which reward officers for the number of women they promote. The result has been a rash of promotions, where unqualified women have been placed into critical positions. Some of these have been pilot positions, but many have been aircraft maintenance and safety-related positions. At the same time, the pressure to feminize the military has resulted a large number of highly skilled caucasian men leaving, once it became known that the DOD policy was to promote women to satisfy the equal-outcome police. -Brian Lynch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:04:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin Klapperich Subject: [none] Someone I was talking to recently, who is in the Air Force, told me that the F-117 has a device on it that will cause the film on any camera to over expose whenevr it takes-off and lands. I've never heard this before and was wondering if anyone else has. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0700 (PDT) From: dadams@netcom.com Subject: Re: your mail > Someone I was talking to recently, who is in the Air Force, told me that the > F-117 has a device on it that will cause the film on any camera to over > expose whenevr it takes-off and lands. I've never heard this before and was > wondering if anyone else has. Yep! It's called pulling someone's leg. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0700 (PDT) From: dadams@netcom.com Subject: Re: your mail > Someone I was talking to recently, who is in the Air Force, told me that the > F-117 has a device on it that will cause the film on any camera to over > expose whenevr it takes-off and lands. I've never heard this before and was > wondering if anyone else has. Yep! It's called pulling someone's leg. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:48:57 -0700 From: tonydinkel@clubnet.net (Tony Dinkel) Subject: Re: I got some pretty good close ups on both 35 mm and video during taxi at the EDW air show several years ago. Had to use manual focus though. Both my IR and other people's ultra sonic focus systems were having trouble however. When I overheard some people complaining about their problems afterwards I explained it and the response was like...oh...right! td >Someone I was talking to recently, who is in the Air Force, told me that the >F-117 has a device on it that will cause the film on any camera to over >expose whenevr it takes-off and lands. I've never heard this before and was >wondering if anyone else has. > >Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 12:04:04 GMT From: ahanley@usace.mil Subject: re: overexposed F-117s The device is called...Really Dark Paint. The F-117, becuase of it's colot, will throw off the meter of a camera. This in't a fiendishly clever device, it's simply what happnes when you have a really dark (or really light) object as your subject with a fairly uniform background behind it. Shooting a F-117 without doing exposure compensation is going to result in you getting a picture of a F-117 silhouette. If you expose for the F-117, in many cases you'll overexpose the background. That's life. It all depends on the light illuminating the Night Hawk and where it is in relation to the aircraft. As an aside, I find the SR-71 hard to photograph for the same reason. In fact, in close-ups where the aircraft dominates the picture, I often find that autofocus won't work. I have to manually command the autofocus assist to come on (it won't automaically, 'cause the meter tells the system there's enough light that the assist isn't needed), because the aircraft is too uniform for the system to work normally. I usually just focus manuallly when the subject is the SR. Also, I find that it seems to absorb a lot of light. This is a problem with autoflash. If a subject right nect to it is correctly lit, the SR and its immeidate background are way to dark. Pumping out enough light to make the SR look good washes out any "normal" subjects nearby. A tip for your friend: Try and get the sun directly behind you or at s 45 degree angle when shooting these planes in motion, overexpose by a stop and use slide film., It's much better for catching the subtleties of light on these aircrafgt in motion. If you shoot prints, don't just let them be printed without the operator actually looking at the prints. You'll find that you may have more usable shots than you think, just printed incorrectly. Art "Kodachrome" Hanley Not even an electron of this message is associated with even a proton of my employer's views, even on the quantum level ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:48:30 -0700 From: larry@ichips.intel.com Subject: Re: d21 and f104 >> There were covers shaped like a giant spike on the intake and exhaust of >>the ramjet while it was mated to a mother-ship. >Although they planned covers early on, there was concern about ingestion >of pieces of the cover. Yes, it actually happened. I think Miller has a photo of damage done externally to the drone, and several books have pictures of the hot spots caused on the ramjet nozzle caused by injestion of nose shroud pieces into the ramjet. >They found that if they left the covers off >they could use the D-21 engine as a third engine to get mothership up to >the needed speed. They tried this, but it didn't work well due to several problems. One issue is that ramjets don't develop good thrust below Mach 2, to say nothing about thrust below Mach 1. Also another problem is the transonic drag rise. A non-drone carrying blackbird has a nice clean configuration presented to those wonderful engines to punch through Mach 1 with. With the drone up there, the additional drag rise over and above the normal drag rise approaching Mach 1, was excessive. The MD configuration needed too much time and space to get through Mach 1. So it was done eventually with a near vertical dive, kind of a gravity drive if you will, or gravity thrust augmentation. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 15:40:09 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: At 01:04 PM 10/6/97 -0400, you wrote: >Someone I was talking to recently, who is in the Air Force, told me that the >F-117 has a device on it that will cause the film on any camera to over >expose whenevr it takes-off and lands. I've never heard this before and was >wondering if anyone else has. > >Kevin ============================================================== I hope this is just another one of those test messages to see if your name is still on the list. I really it is!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:06:49 -0700 From: patrick Subject: re: overexposed F-117s At 12:04 PM 10/6/97 GMT, you wrote: >The device is called...Really Dark Paint. > There is a film on the market that I am convinced was designed to shoot photos of F-117's and SR-71's. ILFORD makes a black and white film called XP-2. I won't bore you with why it works but it is easy to find, comes in 35 mm and 120 size, can be developed at 1 hour photo stores in the exact same chemistry as color film, has at least a 5 stop exposure latitude, and is considered a fine grain film. Why shoot color of a B & W plane? I have shot undercarriage shots of F-117's on the tarmac in bright sun and of others flying overhead. In both cases wheel well interiors come out properly exposed with detail. It is definitely "an unfair advantage". Course if they use that beam thing messes with your camera during take off's and landings..... patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 17:08:12 GMT From: ahanley@usace.mil Subject: re: overexposed F-117s BTW, The F-117 and SR-71 both have a device that messes up my spelling whn I send messages about thm. Art Hanley I'm the only one responsible for the opinions above, not my employer. (I get beat up if I don't say that) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:25:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: RE: Recent Military Aircraft Crashes Brian Lynch enlightened us with: >It is my reasoned and researched opinion that the >alarming increase in military aircraft accidents is a direct result of >the feminist and homosexual attacks which have been made on the >military. The political pressure to place women in certain positions >has resulted in personnel policies which reward officers for the number >of women they promote. The result has been a rash of promotions, where >unqualified women have been placed into critical positions. Some of >these have been pilot positions, but many have been aircraft maintenance >and safety-related positions. At the same time, the pressure to >feminize the military has resulted a large number of highly skilled >caucasian men leaving, once it became known that the DOD policy was to >promote women to satisfy the equal-outcome police. I am glad to hear that the culprits were identified. Actually, I was afraid we aliens (legal, illegal or extra-terrestrial) would be blamed, together with the Jewish-controlled, liberal media. Has anyone inquired, if those females, homosexuals, and blacks, that take over the US military and push all those highly skilled Caucasian men into despair, are maybe conspiring with Moslems, communists, or, god forbid, Hispanic Catholics? But I guess, this is the wrong forum, here. Keep the promise ('cause I don't want it). - -- Andreas [who can't stand such 'Wichser'] - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:30:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Re: overexposed F-117s Kevin Klapperich wrote: >Someone I was talking to recently, who is in the Air Force, told me that the >F-117 has a device on it that will cause the film on any camera to over >expose whenevr it takes-off and lands. I've never heard this before and was >wondering if anyone else has. I wanted to poke fun at this too, but several of you did that already. :) On the other hand, I hear over and over that auto focus and/or auto exposure would not work on F-117s, B-2s and other aircraft. I am not really an avid photographer, and don't even have a Zoom lense to speak off, but I (and my camera) have very seldom experienced any of those problems. The camera, a Yashica 230-AF, uses contrast/sharpness for auto focus, rather than any distance measurement device like UV, IR, Ultra-Sound or whatever. One can also select a wide-field or center-section-only area for measurements. I was wondering if those sharp lines and high contrast coloring of some stealth designs would be actually counter-productive against optical tracking systems, like an IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track), as employed by MiG-29, Su-27, F-14, F-22, EF-2000, and anything conceivably equipped with a LANTRIN (Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infra-Red for Night) or similar device. How important is 'visual'/IIR (Infra-Red Imaging) stealth in reality, meaning current operational environments? Would an F-117A be easy prey for a Russian version of an AL-1A in the future? - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V6 #80 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "skunk-works-digest-request@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner