skunk-works-digest Tuesday, December 30 1997 Volume 06 : Number 101 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: "range-gating" F-22/Area 51. Re: Discovery Channel Re: Discovery Channel Re: F-22/Area 51. Re: Discovery Channel D-21 radioactivity Re: F-22/Area 51. Re: F-22/Area 51. Re: F-22/Area 51. Re: Discovery Channel Re: Discovery Channel Have Blue Crashes Re: Have Blue Crashes Re: Have Blue Crashes Online article detailing early Cold War jet aviation development Sheer Manliness *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:49:55 -0800 From: G&G Subject: Re: "range-gating" Louis K. Scheffer wrote: > Sounds like the result you might see from a typical anti-radar technique > known as 'range-gating'... BZZZZZZZT!!! Sorry, but range-gating is not an anti-radar technique, it's an artifact of certain radar modes, much like the 'notch' in doppler mode. > When you first detect a pulse, you send a pulse back immediately. This > provides a much brighter return than the natural reflection. One the > next pulse, you delay the echo a bit. On the next pulse a bit more, > and so on. This is a radar jamming technique known as false-targeting. I think your description is off a bit technically, but that's probably best for this forum.... :) A good (and relevant) source of information on this subject is Robert Shaw's excellent book "Fighter Combat - Tactics and Maneuvering". Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:28:15 +0900 From: "Darryl Matthews" Subject: F-22/Area 51. Su Wei-Jen: Oh! That's why you were praising it! Yeah, the game sounds nice...might buy it. Sorry for the confusion. Greg: Who do you work for!? Lieve: I hope that was my page you were talking about! JavaScript (VBScript) fixed! A question about Area 51 for you all to consider: Why, why, why does the AF deny it exists? I have a satellite picture of the entire base. It is obviously Groom Lake because of the massive dry lake bed, and the incredibly long runway with a sparse number of buildings. Another question: Who cares whether it exists or not!? Who are they hiding from now -- the Commies? Of course not! *Excuse me if I am missing some incredible obvious point!* My point, though, is backed up by Bill Sweetman, just check the last paragraph of his 'Aurora' book (it seems like we all have that one - hey, I bought it here in Japan!!) Groom Lake Blackhawks: Those Blackhawks have the entire left (or right, can't remember!) side of their canopy painted black, and the flight path is done in such a way that the pilot will never see the hangar areas...interesting. Comparmentalized security: that's how they kept the F-117 so secret...people making the wings didn't know anything about the rest of the aircraft. Secret...but really expensive! For all of you interested in the F-117: Get the World Air Power Journal Special Edition book on the F-117....it's brilliant! EVERYONE: Merry Xmas!! And a Happy New Year... Take care: James. PS: I ramble don't I?! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:56:45 GMT From: czguris@interport.net (Christopher Zguris) Subject: Re: Discovery Channel Not sure if this is relevant, but thought I'd throw it out anyway... When I visited the Smithsonian's Garber Restoration Facility, I noticed yellow & red radiation warning tags on some aircraft. The guide explained that some of the aircraft were found to be radioactive in non-instrument spots (like a left-side control lever of a certain aircraft). I'm going from memory, but I seem to remember his mentioning spots on wings etc. They didn't know why, but when they checked aircraft, they found out (they also discovered - quite by surprise - that some aircraft were shipped with ejection-seat charges intact and armed). Perhaps a similar process occured with the D21? On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:37:35 EST, Xelex wrote: >On another topic: >Does anyone know why the D-21 drones are radioactive? I took readings of up >to 0.4 mR/Hr. on the upper surface of the aft section of a D-21B. That is >about ten times the natural background radiation. Since the reading remains >strong only within a few inches of the surface, it appears to be emitting >alpha particles. Christopher Zguris, czguris@interport.net http://www.users.interport.net/~czguris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:03:05 -0800 From: Larry Smith Subject: Re: Discovery Channel I didn't catch the A51 show. Are they going to replay it. I just got cable! >It was unforgivable to let Jim Wilson (of Popular Mechanics) say that the >facility closed up shop and moved to Utah. There should have been some >rebuttal. Wilson's story has been discredited by numerous people recently >visiting the Groom Lake Road area, and by one individual who visited the so- >called "new Area 51" and found it to be an abandoned rocket site. And I don't >mean that he just looked at it from a distance! So he really wasn't kidding! I can't believe he was serious. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I thought he was joking! EGADS! >On another topic: >Does anyone know why the D-21 drones are radioactive? ... They have used some Mag-Thorium or Magnesium Thorium in the aircraft due to its light weight and high temperature capabilities. Essentially magnesium which is quite light but not good at high temperatures, alloyed with thorium, to give it a high temp capability. This technology is quite old, been around for a long time. I understand that the F-105 used it as well. It exists on the D in certain areas. From memory, the inlet spike, elevon counterbalances, and a few other places. I'd check on that, my memory is not sure of those places, but I think it's correct. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:56:17 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: F-22/Area 51. Darryl Matthews you wrote: >Groom Lake Blackhawks: Those Blackhawks have the entire left (or right, >can't remember!) side of their canopy painted black, and the flight path is >done in such a way that the pilot will never see the hangar >areas...interesting. Comparmentalized security: that's how they kept the >F-117 so secret...people making the wings didn't know anything about the >rest of the aircraft. Secret...but really expensive! If you will reread your World Airpower Journal on the F-117 that claim was made about a Huey that flew to Tonopah with a passenger. The windows on one side were supposedly blacked out, not the front canopy Lets not make Groom into any bigger a circus than it already has become. AS far as the F-117 goes it's my belief the planes were assembled by individual teams. The wings were removed and air freighted over to Groom for final assebly there. patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:23:03 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: Discovery Channel >>Does anyone know why the D-21 drones are radioactive? ... > >They have used some Mag-Thorium or Magnesium Thorium in the aircraft >due to its light weight and high temperature capabilities. Essentially >magnesium which is quite light but not good at high temperatures, alloyed >with thorium, to give it a high temp capability. This technology is quite >old, been around for a long time. I understand that the F-105 used it >as well. > It was also used on the BOMARC missile (one of the most beautiful missiles ever to fly) which is why you won't see it or an F-105 as a gate guard. patrick cullumber patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:33:35 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Jacobovits Subject: D-21 radioactivity The D-21 is radioactive because of Magnesium Thorium located on the inlet spike and the fuselage/elevon joint. Of course, I have no idea why it was used. The two suggestions I have heard is that its structural/thermal properties were suitable, and that it is used as or part of some radar absorbent material. Bye for now, Aaron J aaronjj@engin.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:10:05 -0800 From: G&G Subject: Re: F-22/Area 51. Darryl Matthews wrote: > Su Wei-Jen: Oh! That's why you were praising it! Yeah, the game sounds > nice...might buy it. Sorry for the confusion. Novalogic's PC simulations (both Lightning II and Raptor) are typically described as "light" simulations, meaning they are more of an "arcade" game rather than representative of the actual aircraft. An excellent example of a "heavy" PC sim would be the classic Falcon 3.0 (and yes, the Falcon 4.0 demo is out there on the net) or SSI's SU-27 Flanker. Heavy sims usually try to model more of the actual flight envelope and avionics of the subject aircraft. BTW, I have "Lightning II" and it's great fun if you like to just fly around and shoot things up (down?). If you want to "fly missions" and target specific objectives, or have any experience in military jets, you'll be more satisfied with a "heavy". DID's F-22 ADF is a much-anticipated "heavy" PC sim of the Raptor... See: http://www.did.com/f22/f22adf.htm and: http://www.novalogic.com/ and: http://www.ssionline.com/games/su27/index.html and: http://www.microprose.com/gamesdesign/falcon4/f4index.html for more info on these PC sims... > Greg: Who do you work for!? Camber Corp. - Sensor Simulation Division. We do a digital radar landmass simulation (DRLMS) that runs in real-time on an SGI box. Landmass databases can be derived from either DMA DTED/DFAD data or translated from the visual database used on the simulator's image generator/visual system. Currently working on simulations of AN/APQ-170 for the AC-130U, AN/APQ-180 for the MC-130H, AN/APS-137 for the P-3 update, AN/AWG-9 for the F-14A/Bs, Blue Fox for India's Sea Harriers, and the ARG-1 (AN/APG-66 derivative) for the Argentine A-4s that Skunk Works is currently modding... (just to keep the thread on topic :) ) > For all of you interested in the F-117: Get the World Air Power Journal > Special Edition book on the F-117....it's brilliant! This is a pretty good issue. I think it can still be ordered from: http://www.airpower.co.uk/wap/specials.html Off to see the family for the holidays, will be back on line next week. Everyone have a Safe and Skunky Christmas! Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:11:10 -0800 From: G&G Subject: Re: F-22/Area 51. Darryl Matthews wrote: > Su Wei-Jen: Oh! That's why you were praising it! Yeah, the game sounds > nice...might buy it. Sorry for the confusion. Novalogic's PC simulations (both Lightning II and Raptor) are typically described as "light" simulations, meaning they are more of an "arcade" game rather than representative of the actual aircraft. An excellent example of a "heavy" PC sim would be the classic Falcon 3.0 (and yes, the Falcon 4.0 demo is out there on the net) or SSI's SU-27 Flanker. Heavy sims usually try to model more of the actual flight envelope and avionics of the subject aircraft. BTW, I have "Lightning II" and it's great fun if you like to just fly around and shoot things up (down?). If you want to "fly missions" and target specific objectives, or have any experience in military jets, you'll be more satisfied with a "heavy". DID's F-22 ADF is a much-anticipated "heavy" PC sim of the Raptor... See: http://www.did.com/f22/f22adf.htm and: http://www.novalogic.com/ and: http://www.ssionline.com/games/su27/index.html and: http://www.microprose.com/gamesdesign/falcon4/f4index.html for more info on these PC sims... > Greg: Who do you work for!? Camber Corp. - Sensor Simulation Division. We do a digital radar landmass simulation (DRLMS) that runs in real-time on an SGI box. Landmass databases can be derived from either DMA DTED/DFAD data or translated from the visual database used on the simulator's image generator/visual system. Currently working on simulations of AN/APQ-170 for the AC-130U, AN/APQ-180 for the MC-130H, AN/APS-137 for the P-3 update, AN/AWG-9 for the F-14A/Bs, Blue Fox for India's Sea Harriers, and the ARG-1 (AN/APG-66 derivative) for the Argentine A-4s that Skunk Works is currently modding... (just to keep the thread on topic :) ) > For all of you interested in the F-117: Get the World Air Power Journal > Special Edition book on the F-117....it's brilliant! This is a pretty good issue. I think it can still be ordered from: http://www.airpower.co.uk/wap/specials.html Off to see the family for the holidays, will be back on line next week. Everyone have a Safe and Skunky Christmas! Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:21:18 -0800 From: G&G Subject: Re: F-22/Area 51. > Everyone have a Safe and Skunky Christmas! Sorry, my bad. No, the list isn't duplicating messages again, I am. Netscape died when I hit 'send', so I started it up and tried again thinking attempt #1 didn't get out... must be Bill Gates' theory that browsers are an integral part of the software... :) Greg Fieser ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:15:13 -0700 (MST) From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: Discovery Channel On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Xelex wrote: > > On another topic: > Does anyone know why the D-21 drones are radioactive? I took readings of up > to 0.4 mR/Hr. on the upper surface of the aft section of a D-21B. That is > about ten times the natural background radiation. Since the reading remains > strong only within a few inches of the surface, it appears to be emitting > alpha particles. > > Peter W. Merlin > THE X-HUNTERS > Aerospace Archeology Team > Alpha particles can be stopped by a sheet of paper. Try putting a sheet of paper between your detector and the drone. Actually, it is unusual to have a detector which can detect alpha's since it requires a very thin window which is pretty fragile. Normally, geiger counters only pick up beta (high energy electrons) and gamma/x rays (high energy light). The beta particles themselves can produce x-rays when they run into something (called bremsstrahllung or "braking radiation"). Only nuclides which are neutron-poor will decay via alpha emission (essentially a helium nucleus containing 2 protons and 2 neutrons and highly charged). Being neutron-poor is highly unusual in man-made radioactive materials which are normally made by neutron activation or fission. I think natural thorium is an alpha emitter, though, and thoria was used to dispersion strengthen the so-called "TD-Nickel", a high temperature creep resistant alloy that is no longer made but used to be an aerospace-type material. It was slightly radioactive as a result of the thoria content, as are modern thoriated tungsten TIG welding electrodes. Brad Hitch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:26:53 -0700 (MST) From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: Discovery Channel On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, patrick wrote: > >>Does anyone know why the D-21 drones are radioactive? ... > > > >They have used some Mag-Thorium or Magnesium Thorium in the aircraft > >due to its light weight and high temperature capabilities. Essentially > >magnesium which is quite light but not good at high temperatures, alloyed > >with thorium, to give it a high temp capability. This technology is quite > >old, been around for a long time. I understand that the F-105 used it > >as well. > > > It was also used on the BOMARC missile (one of the most beautiful missiles > ever to fly) which is why you won't see it or an F-105 as a gate guard. > This the low temperature equivalent of TD-Nickel, Thorium content of about 1-3% by weight. Dispersion stengthening by an oxide like thoria acts to pin metal grain boundaries and prevent creep. Just don't make eating utensils out of it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:04:37 -0800 (PST) From: David Lednicer Subject: Have Blue Crashes "David" wrote: > I don't remember reading about the Have Blue accidents at Groom until > after the F-117 was announced. You might want to go to a good library and hunt back through the old issues of Flight International. They did VERY accurately report the crash of the first prototype the week after it happened. They even had the pilot's name (Bill Park) and they found the hospital that he had been taken to. Additionally, Air International reported the first flight of Have Blue (they called it a "prototype stealth fighter") within a month or two after it happened. How do I know? - I read it, and a couple months later was on an AIAA student trip at Lockheed, meeting the President of Lockheed, Willis Hawkins, who was an alumnus of the same school as me (Michigan). He asked for questions, and I asked him about this "stealth fighter". His only reaction was "How the hell did you find out about THAT!" Later that day, we were takne over to the Skunk Works to meet Kelly Johnson (also a Michigan alumnus) and Ben Rich. I didn't have teh courage to ask the same question there, but now wish I had! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (425) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (425) 746-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:08:42 +1200 From: Brett Davidson Subject: Re: Have Blue Crashes At 19:04 24/12/97 -0800, David wrote: Interesting story (you lucky bastard) clipped... >fighter". His only reaction was "How the hell did you find out about >THAT!" Later that day, we were takne over to the Skunk Works to meet >Kelly Johnson (also a Michigan alumnus) and Ben Rich. I didn't have teh >courage to ask the same question there, but now wish I had! > There's courage and there's stupidity - from what I read about Kelly Johnson, he would have kicked you. Hard. - --Brett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:51:53 -0700 (MST) From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: Have Blue Crashes After consulting the Aerospace Structural Metals Handbook I found that the thorium in the Mag-Thorium alloys consists of the metal rather than the oxide, blowing a hole in my TD-Ni equivalent theory. It is an unusual alloying element - does anyone have any insight as to this selection and its strengthening mechanism in magnesium? Brad Hitch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:50:48 -0800 From: Erik Hoel Subject: Online article detailing early Cold War jet aviation development The following URL is a link to a HistoryNet article entitled "The Cold = War accelerated jet aircraft development without a shot being fired in = the 1940s" by Jon Guttman (Kelly Johnson and a few Lockheed aircraft are = mentioned). It gives a high-level overview of a lot of what was going on = in jet aviation between 1944 and the mid 1950s in Britain, Sweden, = Canada, the US, and Russia.=20 = http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/1998/01982_text.htm= I found it an entertaining lunchtime read. Erik - -- Erik Hoel = mailto:ehoel@esri.com _|_| Environmental Systems Research Institute = http://www.esri.com _|_| 380 New York Street 909-793-2853 = tel ESRI Redlands, CA 92373-8100 909-307-3067 = fax ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:19:06 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Suhler Subject: Sheer Manliness Last weekend I was browsing in a Crown Books and came across "The Big Damn Book of Sheer Manliness." (Or something like that.) It has three pages, with illustrations, about Kely Johnson and the Skunk Works. No, I wouldn't call this a "gotta-have." :-) Paul Suhler ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V6 #101 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "skunk-works-digest-request@netwrx1.com". 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