From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V7 #44 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Sunday, August 9 1998 Volume 07 : Number 044 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** This & that Aurora 2 project? List modifications completed ALL Digests now available via E-Mail as well as Web Magic numbers Re: Magic numbers First "Public viewing of F-22 Raptor" Edwards air show [Fwd: First "Public viewing of F-22 Raptor" Edwards air show] Re: Aurora 2 project? Re: Aurora 2 project? Re: Aurora 2 project? Re[2]: Aurora 2 project? the Ranch Aurora 2 project? and "the Ranch" Re: Aurora 2 project? and "the Ranch" Su-27 Re: Aurora 2 project? and "the Ranch" (fwd) SR-71 Revival Re: SR-71 Revival Re: SR-71 Revival Re: SR-71 Revival White 707? RE: White 707? F-22 Weight, T/W, and wing loading *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:59:36 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lednicer Subject: This & that > What then became of the Pond Racer? Please, don't get me crying. I helped design it and was there when it crashed. I met Rick the night before it crashed. Sitting next to me at the time of the crash was the former project engineer, Steve Ericson, who had to go out to the wreck the next day and do the post-mortem with Burt, Dick and the engine guy, John Knepp. Luckily, Steve and I were looking the other way when it happened. Rickie Burroughs, who helped build it, came running into the Formula 1 hangar and told us what had happened. We heard the crash alarm and saw the smoke plume all too clear. We tried to drive out to the site, but the FAA wouldn't let us in. At the same time, the FAA was trying to find us, to find out what the airplane was made of, as the firefighters were worried about the smoke's toxicity. Steve and I walked around Reno until 1am trying to get it out of our minds. It appears that the right engine blew. The Hartzell props required a certain minimum RPM to feather, but the engine seized. Rick flew away from the field, trying to feather the prop while he climbed. When he realized that the unfeathered prop was dragging him down, he turned back for the field, but he was too far out. He ended up attempting a belly landing in Lemmon Valley, down below Stead field. Unfortunately, one of the first parts of the airframe to make contact was the belly of the center pod, right where the fuel sump was. It blew and he burned with the airplane. The poor airplane was designed by people (including me), who had no experience with Unlimiteds. I now have a lot of experience with them and the mistakes we made are all too obvious. The engines were turbocharged 3 liter Nissan GTP engines, claimed to be capable of 1000 hp each. The night before he was killed, Rick told me that he finally was cleared to pull 70% power on them. The airplane was designed to have Methanol used in the engines, but at one point, it was converted back to avgas. At the last minute, someone decided to switch back to Methanol, as there was a big power gain. The Meth destroyed the gas fuel system and the airplane spent Reno week in the pits, having a new fuel system installed. The cooling system was designed by amateurs (including me) and never worked as it should have. The airplane also didn't have enough internal volume to hold all of the fluids (fuel, ADI, etc.) needed, so a tank was added behind the pilot's seat, screwing up the CG. No one really did a drag bookkeeping in design, until I did one late in the going. I found that the aircraft had no cushion in terms of extra drag added by details added in construction. Hence, it never would have really been competitive. And on, and on... First lesson of Unlimiteds: use an existing, proven engine, in a fairly simple airframe. That's what Cornell and Jackson were doing. Lesson two: have a sponsor willing to spend $1 million+ with no return (first place at Reno isn't very much money). This is where Cornell and Jackson failed. On a slightly brighter note: Greenamyer was NOT making a speed attempt when he had to punch out. His first, unsuccesful, attempt at the record was in September 1976. He succesfully broke the record on October 24, 1977 - its in my FAI record book. The flight where he punched out was a test flight, in preparation for the altitude record attempt. Additionally, the airplane was NOT a CF-104. Instead, it was a collection of parts off of different models. The nose was from a static test rig, the wings were out of the scrap yard, the tail was off a F-104G, etc. The engine's donor was a mystery for many years, but I now know it was provided by the US Navy, to spite the USAF, which didn't want a civilian holding the record! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (425) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (425) 746-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:44:53 -0400 From: "DW" Subject: Aurora 2 project? Does anyone have any information on the Aurora 2 project? DW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 01:40:03 GMT From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Subject: List modifications completed Hello: Please excuse the number of test messages today. I FINALLY have the list and digest working correctly here. The major problem cause was that the entire config file for the list had a > character in the front of every line causing them to be ignored and it acted like NO file. This is now fixed. New features/properties of the list are: Reply to will automatically go back to skunk-works@netwrx1.com for both the "standard" list and the digest. Digests will be created once 30K of messages accumulate. This can be altered to occur on a time period as well. Hope that this is to everyones satisfaction, I tried to incorporate all the requests for various items at one time rather than bit by bit since the config files must be edited its easier to do it once than multiple times. Any questions or problems just let me know at georgek@netwrx1.com Enjoy, George ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 Skunk-Works ListOwner +1 800 816 2568 FAX http://www.netwrx1.com West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com Digest Issues at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 03:14:46 GMT From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Subject: ALL Digests now available via E-Mail as well as Web Hello again: Just another quick admin note here. FINALLY have gotten the Digests available by E-Mail once again as well as the web interface. To access from the web go to: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works To get a listing of the available archives by E-Mail send to majordomo@netwrx1.com the following one line message: index skunk-works-digest To retrieve a particular digest issue send to majordomo@netwrx1.com the following message (yes you can get more than 1 at a time just use more than 1 line): get v##.n### where v##.n### is the volume and issue # that you want to retrieve. Hope this helps people out. Once again, if you have questions or problems with this let me know. Enjoy, George ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 Skunk-Works ListOwner +1 800 816 2568 FAX http://www.netwrx1.com West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com Digest Issues at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:26:18 EDT From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Magic numbers Some sources claim that the F-117 derived its number from a series of numbers in use for acquired foreign assets. In other words the MiG-21 became the YF-110 and the MiG-23 became the YF-113. The official Air Force biographies of some former members of the Red Eagles, now in high-ranking positions, list the YF-110 and YF-113 among the aircraft that they have flown. Peter W. Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:20:14 -0400 From: Indiana Joe Subject: Re: Magic numbers Peter W. Merlin writes, >Some sources claim that the F-117 derived its number from a series of numbers >in use for acquired foreign assets. In other words the MiG-21 became the >YF-110 and the MiG-23 became the YF-113. The official Air Force biographies >of some former members of the Red Eagles, now in high-ranking positions, list >the YF-110 and YF-113 among the aircraft that they have flown. There is a less romantic but better documented explanation for at least one of these. The F-110 Spectre was the original Air Force designation of the Navy's F4H-1 Phantom II. When the services combined their numbering systems, the aircraft was redesignated the F-4. Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag." jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:55:31 -0600 From: Brent Clark Subject: First "Public viewing of F-22 Raptor" Edwards air show The 1998 Edwards Airshow is scheduled for Oct 3, 1998. The press release says that the F-22 Raptor will be on display. See reference at http://afftc.edwards.af.mil/ppa/pressrel/airshow98.htm Brent ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 23:16:09 -0600 From: Brent Clark Subject: [Fwd: First "Public viewing of F-22 Raptor" Edwards air show] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------75709C2D4B64BECC4282E164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I incorrectly listed the Edwards address, correct address is: http://afftc.edwards.af.mil/ppa/pressrel/airshw98.htm - --------------75709C2D4B64BECC4282E164 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from netwrx1.com (netwrx1.com [192.41.8.79]) by ixmail5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id VAA23155; ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (georgek@localhost) by netwrx1.com (8.8.5) id WAA25312; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:48:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by netwrx1.com (8.8.5) id WAA25244; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:48:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA23018 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:48:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from slc-ut1-05.ix.netcom.com(204.31.112.37) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022853; Wed Aug 5 23:47:36 1998 Message-ID: <35C93742.3F61D62C@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:55:31 -0600 From: Brent Clark X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "skunk-works@netwrx1.com" Subject: First "Public viewing of F-22 Raptor" Edwards air show Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com The 1998 Edwards Airshow is scheduled for Oct 3, 1998. The press release says that the F-22 Raptor will be on display. See reference at http://afftc.edwards.af.mil/ppa/pressrel/airshow98.htm Brent - --------------75709C2D4B64BECC4282E164-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:04:47 -0500 From: "Tom C Robison" Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? DW wrote: Does anyone have any information on the Aurora 2 project? ============== Aurora 2???!!! We haven't even proved the existence of Aurora (I) yet, now there's a Two??? Tom _________________________________________________ Tom Robison tcrobi@most.fw.hac.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:36:10 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? At 08:04 AM 8/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >DW wrote: >Does anyone have any information on the Aurora 2 project? >============== > >Aurora 2???!!! We haven't even proved the existence of Aurora (I) yet, now >there's a Two??? > >Tom- You don't remember when Aurora I was returning from an oblique radar mapping mission over Bosnia and had a major malfunction turning final at Groom? The pilot put it on "auto land" and had to punch. The craft did land as designed to but veered off the end of the main runway and ended up in the muck at the bottom of Groom Lake. The pilot (astronaut?) was okay. It's all at their website. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:24:17 -0500 From: "Tom C Robison" Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? Patrick wrote: You don't remember when Aurora I was returning from an oblique radar mapping mission over Bosnia and had a major malfunction turning final at Groom? The pilot put it on "auto land" and had to punch. The craft did land as designed to but veered off the end of the main runway and ended up in the muck at the bottom of Groom Lake. The pilot (astronaut?) was okay. It's all at their website. ============================= No, I have never heard this story... and I thought Groom "Lake" was a dry lakebed. What website? Do you have the URL? Thanks, Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 15:43:01 -0500 From: gregweigold@pmsc.com Subject: Re[2]: Aurora 2 project? Patrick, Do I detect sarcasm?!!! Greg W. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? Author: at INTERNET Date: 8/6/98 2:24 PM Patrick wrote: You don't remember when Aurora I was returning from an oblique radar mapping mission over Bosnia and had a major malfunction turning final at Groom? The pilot put it on "auto land" and had to punch. The craft did land as designed to but veered off the end of the main runway and ended up in the muck at the bottom of Groom Lake. The pilot (astronaut?) was okay. It's all at their website. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:36:03 -0700 From: ryankirk@juno.com Subject: the Ranch I had always thought that Nellis AFB and the Ranch were the same place... where exactly is the Ranch? Ryan _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:14:54 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Aurora 2 project? and "the Ranch" >Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? > >Patrick wrote: > >You don't remember when Aurora I was returning from an oblique radar >mapping mission over Bosnia and had a major malfunction turning final at >Groom? The pilot put it on "auto land" and had to punch. The craft did >land as designed to but veered off the end of the main runway and ended up >in the muck at the bottom of Groom Lake. The pilot (astronaut?) was okay. >It's all at their website. > > At 03:43 PM 8/6/98 -0500, you Greg W. wrote: > > Patrick, > > Do I detect sarcasm?!!! > Greg- This goes back to an old joke from AOL mil aviation files. Someone asked a similar question and an FTP site was named for further info: ftp.groom.aurora.photos.maps.flighttimes. It of course did not exist. The ftp site! And Ryan asks.... I had always thought that Nellis AFB and the Ranch were the same place... where exactly is the Ranch? Ryan, Nellis AFB is located on the eastern outskirts of Las Vegas, Nevada. Within eyesight of each other. The Nellis Bombing and Gunnery Range is the vast closed area beginning a few miles north of the air base. Inside this closed to the public range is an area called Groom Dry Lake (for the actual drylake bed that exists there. It is the flight test facility begun in the early fifties by the Skunk Works for secret testing of their new airplanes. One of the early names for this facility was "the Ranch". Probably due to the primitive conditions the engineers and technicians endured while stationed there. It falls in a quadrant numbered 51 on a map made by the Department of Energy that numbers each area of the Nellis Range. Thus the name "Area 51". patrick patrick@e-z.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:42:50 -0700 From: Dave Cox Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? and "the Ranch" On 6 Aug 98 at 16:14, patrick wrote: [good stuff deleted] > One of the early names for this facility was "the Ranch". Probably > due to >the primitive conditions the engineers and technicians endured while >stationed there. Actually, I think it was named 'Paradise Ranch' with obvious irony. In a related question, I read once something which implied that the name 'Dreamland' actually refered to the restricted airspace over the area as opposed to the facility itself. Any clues on that one? - --dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:08:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Wei-Jen Su Subject: Su-27 Sorry if it is out of topic, but this list is the most serious with respect to the aircraft discussion... Well, except for the UFO stuff... Anyone knows what is the tail cone of the Su-27 for? It is a ECM pods, mini-radar, fuel tank?? Thanks in advances. May the Force be with you Wei-Jen Su E-mail: wsu@cco.caltech.edu Self-realization. The immortal words of Socrates, when he said "I drank what?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:53:03 -0700 From: ryankirk@juno.com Subject: Re: Aurora 2 project? and "the Ranch" Yes, I do remember the story behind the name as Ben Rich told it. He said that they chose the spot when they were about to begin testing on the U-2. Kelly named it Paradise Ranch to sucker in the poor test pilots who had no idea what they were getting into. Ryan _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 04:35:48 GMT From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Subject: (fwd) SR-71 Revival On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:13:39 -0700, "Leland R. Haynes" wrote: George, I don't normally place inputs into the Skunk Works Digest, however I think the following info will be of interest to your readers. "McKeon jumps on Blackbird bandwagon" This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press August 7, 1998. By DON JERGLER Valley Press Staff Writer WASHINGTON - A group of congressmen intensified efforts to revive the SR-71 Blackbird program Thursday, calling the sleek spy plane crucial to national security. The group cited the recent denial of requests by U.N. inspectors for access to possible Iraqi weapon testing sites and a report released last month that cites poor U.S. intelligence concerning foreign nuclear threats as reasons to revive operations of the high-speed, highaltitude jet. Congressman Howard P. "Buck" McKeon, R-Santa Clarita, and a coalition of House colleagues are demanding that $39 million in vetoed funding for the SR-71 be restored. The group, which sent their requests in a letter to Under Secretary of Defense William J. Lynn II, pointed to a U.S. Supreme Court ruling in June that the line-item veto - which President Bill Clinton used to delete SR-71 funds - - is unconstitutional. As the possibility looms of another confrontation over Iraq's freezing cooperation with U.N. weapons inspectors, McKeon and the other Blackbird proponents voiced support for the program as both a resource and a deterrent. Reinstatement of the SR-71 program would activate two planes, both sitting in a hangar at Edwards Air Force Base, and one two-seat training craft housed at NASA Dryden. Dryden is on Edwards AFB. "I think (the current situation) just shows even more that we need this kind of capability," McKeon said. The chances of getting the program reinstated, though, are not good, according to McKeon. "I think it's uphill," he said. Because of high operational costs, the Air Force has been opposed to the SR-71's reinstatement. McKeon also believes Clinton may try to persuade other members of the House to vote the program down. "We don't have anything else that can do the mission that the SR-71 can do," McKeon said. Operating since the 1960s, the Blackbird retrieved aerial intelligence from a variety of hostile locales, including North Vietnam, North Korea, the Middle East and the fringes of the former Soviet Union. None of the Mach-3-plus planes were ever shot down. Under 8-year-old sanctions, Iraq is prohibited from developing nuclear or chemical weapons, and must allow periodic inspections of possible weapons facilities. The SR-71 provides synoptic coverage of the battlefield with sophisticated sensors, which means it can take aerial photographs of large areas. It has been known to cover 100,000 square miles in an hour. The sleek jet is also equipped with what's called synthetic aperture radar - sensors that work day and night and during all weather conditions. Because the plane uses finegrained optics, clear reconnaissance photographs from high altitudes can be provided. But the major advantage of the SR-71, its proponents say, is its ability to deliver "reconnaissance on demand." Unlike satellites, which maintain fixed orbital patterns around Earth that can be easily predicted, the SR-71 can fly quickly to any area of the world to the U.S. intelligence community's bidding. As opposed to the much slower U-2, the SR-71 can hit Mach 3, or 2000 mph, so there's little chance of it being shot down. Mach 3 is faster than a 30.06 rifle bullet. The plane also achieves altitudes in excess of 80,000 feet, making it hard to spot. During its reactivation, the SR71 was equipped with a wide-band data link, making it a tactical reconnaissance resource for theater commanders - the wide-band link offers real-time capabilities, which means it can deliver informative pictures to battlefield generals at approximately the same moment they are taken. The congressmen also presented a House bill Thursday that would reinforce the request in the letter. With the increased presence of sophisticated weapons in Iran, Iraq and North Korea and the spread of weapons of mass destruction to India and Pakistan, "the SR-71 is the only platform that can quickly process sensitive information to our intelligence community," the letter states. "Because of a lack of investment in U-2 modernization programs and the ongoing development of unmanned aircraft, retention of SR-71s is critical." The congressmen also based their request on a report compiled by the Commission To Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States, a nine-member panel of defense experts. The commission was established last year by Congress. The threat of nuclear missiles being launched against the United States is exacerbated by the ability of existing and emerging ballistic missile powers to hide their activities from the United States, the report states. The report blames inadequate intelligence capabilities for being months or even years off in ascertaining the nuclear weapons capabilities of foreign countries. This means countries which have traditionally been considered by the United States as non-nuclear threats could be many more years ahead in the development of both short- and long-range strike nuclear missiles than previously believed. Other signers of the letter are Duncan Hunter, R-San Diego; Dennis Hastert, R- Illinois; Bill Thomas, R-Bakersfield; Jerry Lewis, R-Redlands; Norm Dicks, DWash.; Ken Calved, R-Riverside; David McIntosh, R-Ind.; Mark Souder, R-Ind.; and David Dreier, R-Covina. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- Friday news page News page Valley Press home page Uploaded August 7, 1998 Post this if you like to your Skunk Works Digest. Regards, Leland Haynes, Webmaster, SR-71 Blackbirds SR-71 Blackbirds Webpage: URL:http://www.wvi.com/~lelandh/sr-71~1.htm ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 Skunk-Works ListOwner +1 800 816 2568 FAX http://www.netwrx1.com West Allis, WI USA ICQ #12862186 Digest Issues at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:35:17 -0700 From: "Michael J. Poirier" Subject: Re: SR-71 Revival Leland R. Haynes wrote: > But the major advantage of the SR-71, its proponents say, > is its ability to deliver "reconnaissance on demand." > What is anyone's opinion on the possibility that high-altitude UAV's may already be providing this data.....but secretly! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:59:29 -0400 From: Ryan Kirk Subject: Re: SR-71 Revival Yes, the DarkStar has actually been in use for years and its entire development from the public's perspective, including the crash, was staged... Hey, it could happen. It probably goes much higher than 45,000 ft. anyway. Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 07:02:18 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: SR-71 Revival Here, this will really frost Art...... ABC Evening News reporting on that photovoltaic powered "6 turning, none burning" NASA craft, the ERAST or ERSATZ, is eventually expected to cruise higher than an SR-71. All the way to 100,000 feet. Wonder why they didn't nickname it Daedelus? Other than the fact that Daedelus eventually crashed. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 09:10:18 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: White 707? Apologies if this isn't quite the right list for the question, but I don't know of any better. A windowless, white 707 was recently seen at Alice Springs, Australia -- no apparent cargo door, and the only marking was a small "N" number on the tail (just what the number was hasn't been communicated, but it may be forthcoming.) There was a discussion of such 707s within the past few months somewhere on the net, but DejaNews and Metacrawler searches don't turn anything up. Any suggestions as to what this airplane may have been would be appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:45:27 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: RE: White 707? It could be a US Navy Tacamo aircraft. Although they're called E-6s, I think they were based on a 707. They're also painted plain white. Gavin - -----Original Message----- From: Allen Thomson [SMTP:thomsona@dzn.com] Sent: 09 August 1998 16:10 To: Skunk Works Subject: White 707? Apologies if this isn't quite the right list for the question, but I don't know of any better. A windowless, white 707 was recently seen at Alice Springs, Australia -- no apparent cargo door, and the only marking was a small "N" number on the tail (just what the number was hasn't been communicated, but it may be forthcoming.) There was a discussion of such 707s within the past few months somewhere on the net, but DejaNews and Metacrawler searches don't turn anything up. Any suggestions as to what this airplane may have been would be appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 19:18:24 -0400 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: F-22 Weight, T/W, and wing loading - --============_-1309417772==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The attached file contains by best estimate of the weights, thrust-to-weight, and wing loading of the F-22. Feel free to give me feedback. The file is an Adobe Acrobat PDF file. If you do not have Adobe Acrobat, it is available at http://www.adobe.com at not cost. 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