From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V7 #89 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Wednesday, December 16 1998 Volume 07 : Number 089 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Global Hawk Re: Something SR-71 shaped in Star Wars "The Phantom Menace" preview Re: skunk-works-digest V7 #87 Re: Something SR-71 shaped in Star Wars "The Phantom Menace" preview Hypersonic Revolution Re: Re: Area 51 FWD: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar RE: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar Flying Saucer (On Topic!) Re: Global Hawk Re: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) Re: Hypersonic Revolution Re: FWD: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) RE: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:46:03 -0500 From: Eric Rebentisch Subject: Global Hawk Art said: > I don't hate Global Hawk, but lessee here: > Global Hawk is Not a bad thing, but as yet it doesn't qualify, as Martha >Stewart might say, as, "It's a Good Thing". I have no argument with your points, but it is worth remembering that the whole thing started off as an ACTD (advanced concept technology demonstrator) and not a formal acquisition program. The problem is that too many prospective users started fantasizing about all the wonderfuil things it could do for them and how it would become the cornerstone of their C4I plan and how it would be perfect for their particular payload and so on. All the additional interest drove the program office crazy as requirements started to creep. Somewhere the notion of "concept demonstration" and "risk reduction" and "let's go see what we can do with this kind of capability" got lost in the rhetoric. I hope that they are successful (within the objectives of the original ACTD) and it leads to more of this kind of technology demonstrators. It would be nice to see more quick, cheap, and frequent aircraft development programs turning out new experimental designs. It would make the industry a more exciting place to work and the users might actually be able to get their hands on technology before it becomes obsolete. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:39:42 +1300 (NZDT) From: Kerry Ferrand Subject: Re: Something SR-71 shaped in Star Wars "The Phantom Menace" preview On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Larry Smith wrote: > > Just saw the preview for the first of the Star Wars Prequels entitled > "The Phantom Menace". There were two shots of something that looked very > much like a futuristic SR-71 (no verticals (I think), and take the basic > Habu shape and make it larger and even more sexy). > > There was one shot that immediately hit my 'hypersonic spaceplane' tag in > my visual cache that showed the bird on the ground, and another of the same > bird in orbit over a planet. > > These were very quick glimpses and also my first viewing of this preview, > so I'm not sure about anything. But that's what it looked like. > yep your right, this ship was refered to in the shooting schedule as the "Mary Celeste"..it plays roughly the same role in the new film as Han's Solo's falcon in the originals..its very blackbird inspired but also manages to fit in with the general "art deco" tech look of the film. The ship is basically a pot-bellied blackbird with the regular cockpit smoothed over, vertical fins removed, inlet spikes enlarged & moved to the engine exhausts (aerospikes?) and a B-1B style cockpit in a spine hump between the engines...and of course an all-over chrome finish. Maybe hollywood's ulitmate blackbird tribute..except that a major plot point has it breaking down:) K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:22:39 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V7 #87 > I see tha tI as with most of us are victoms of American dis-information! > I read of an aircraft designated A4b in 1943 flew at 4200 MPH, there was Impossible! The A4B Skyhawk is a Vietnam-era fighter aircraft capable of low supersonic speeds. > a picture and all in a book about the histroy of aircraft. Have you Which book would that be? > heard of this? > Sam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:49:31 -0500 (EST) From: David Allison Subject: Re: Something SR-71 shaped in Star Wars "The Phantom Menace" preview I'm not a big Star Wars fan (here comes the retributions now), but as long as the movie does the original airframe justice (meaning tribute and not rip-off), that's fine by me. Even the movie Armageddon (a joke technologically, but 2 hours of non-stop excitement nonetheless), which only used the blackbirds for a backdrop for Bruce Willis and Billy Bob Thornton, still gave the lady her due, even by just having her sit back there and look incredible. On the other side of the coin, there's the movie D.A.R.Y.L. I'll keep my Top Ten Reasons Why That Movie P!$$es Me Off list to myself (although I'll share it with anyone who wants to write me). Sincerely, - D - David Allison webmaster@habu.org S L O W E R T R A F F I C K E E P R I G H T / \ / \ _/ ___ \_ ________/ \_______/V^V\_______/ \_______ \__/ \___/ \__/ www.habu.org The OnLine Blackbird Museum On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Kerry Ferrand wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Larry Smith wrote: > > > > > Just saw the preview for the first of the Star Wars Prequels entitled > > "The Phantom Menace". There were two shots of something that looked very > > much like a futuristic SR-71 (no verticals (I think), and take the basic > > Habu shape and make it larger and even more sexy). > > > > There was one shot that immediately hit my 'hypersonic spaceplane' tag in > > my visual cache that showed the bird on the ground, and another of the same > > bird in orbit over a planet. > > > > These were very quick glimpses and also my first viewing of this preview, > > so I'm not sure about anything. But that's what it looked like. > > > > yep your right, this ship was refered to in the shooting schedule as the > "Mary Celeste"..it plays roughly the same role in the new film as Han's > Solo's falcon in the originals..its very blackbird inspired but also > manages to fit in with the general "art deco" tech look of the film. The > ship is basically a pot-bellied blackbird with the regular cockpit smoothed > over, vertical fins removed, inlet spikes enlarged & moved to the engine > exhausts (aerospikes?) and a B-1B style cockpit in a spine hump between the > engines...and of course an all-over chrome finish. Maybe hollywood's > ulitmate blackbird tribute..except that a major plot point has it > breaking down:) > > K > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:54:03 EST From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Hypersonic Revolution In 1987, a two-volume epic entitled "The Hypersonic Revolution: Case Studies in the History of Hypersonic Technology," edited by Dr. Richard P. Hallion, was published by the USAF Aeronautical Systems Division. Volume II was restricted FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY due to a single sentence regarding X-30 payload to orbit. "The Hypersonic Revolution" has now been re-published by the Air Force History and Museums Program at Bolling AFB. The offending sentence has been excised, some additional information on propulsion and Soviet hypersonics added, and a third volume on NASP by Dr. Larry Schweickart has been included. The Volume titles are as follows: Volume I: From Max Valier to Project PRIME (1924 - 1967) Volume II: From Scramjet to National Aero-Space Plane (1964 - 1986) Volume III: The Quest for the Orbital Jet, The National Aero-Space Plane Program (1983 - 1995) Peter W. Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 04:31:48 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: On 12/15/98 6:48AM, in message <3.0.1.32.19981215064837.006d132c@e-z.net>, patrick wrote:. Give me a heads up next > time a Good Thing flies! > > patrick > NASA's ging to fly their SR-71A a couple of times before they put it in flyable storage and there are F-14Ds flying every day! Art ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:09:24 EST From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Re: Area 51 Kurt Rudolph writes "Area 51 was shut down a couple years ago, so don't expect to see anything, they moved to Utah." I can't believe that anyone is still posting this crap, and I will NEVER forgive Jim Wilson for publishing it in Popular Mecahnaics magazine. DET 3 AFFTC (or "Area 51" as it is popularly known) is alive and well at Groom Lake, Nevada. This fact has been well established by observers on Tikaboo Peak and other locations. This leads neatly into Wei-Jen Su's upcoming expedition: If there is snow on Tikaboo Peak, then for the love of God, DON'T ATTEMPT THE CLIMB. I was probably the first person to climb Tikaboo Peak for the express purpose of looking at Groom Lake. I did it on 4 March 1993, in waist-deep powder snow. I consider myself very lucky to be alive. My enthusiasm exceeded my preparations by a wide margin. The hike is strenuous, but pleasant in the Spring and Summer. It varies from unpleasant to deadly in Winter. Use common sense. Peter W. Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:25:55 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar - - - So That Is How You Do It - - < http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16762.html > Researchers in Washington state have found a way to use ordinary FM radio waves for radar detection. That has defense contractors very interested. Such passive detection mode relies on existing FM signals to "paint" objects like planes, mountains, and weather systems. The researchers have come up with a system that uses PCs and existing technology that can be put in the field for $25,000. In contrast, the passive system that Lockheed Martin has been working on for the Pentagon for the past 15 years remains classified. Lockheed Martin officials plan to meet the researchers soon. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 05:57:10 -0500 From: "Frank Markus" Subject: RE: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar I wonder how much Lockheed-Martin has been motivated to perfect a technology that can cheaply detect stealthy aircraft? A cynical observer might ask whether the main focus of the L-M investigation could be to determine how to defeat it. The fact that a small firm is claiming to have developed this technology on a smaller budget and in less time causes me to wonder. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com] On Behalf Of Terry W. Colvin Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:26 AM To: Skunk Works Subject: FWD: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar - - - So That Is How You Do It - - < http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16762.html > Researchers in Washington state have found a way to use ordinary FM radio waves for radar detection. That has defense contractors very interested. Such passive detection mode relies on existing FM signals to "paint" objects like planes, mountains, and weather systems. The researchers have come up with a system that uses PCs and existing technology that can be put in the field for $25,000. In contrast, the passive system that Lockheed Martin has been working on for the Pentagon for the past 15 years remains classified. Lockheed Martin officials plan to meet the researchers soon. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > Home Page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:32:09 -0500 From: "Frank Markus" Subject: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) The December 1998 issue of 'Air International" magazine includes (at p.344) an article called "Plasma Balls and Fire Sheaths" that discusses work being done at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute which seeks a means of protecting aircraft flying at 30,000 kts from atmospheric heating. After discussion of the technology of heat shields, Dr. David Baker, moves to an explanation of the new work which uses a projecting spike that generates an electric arc spike (a plasma) to move the shock wave sufficiently forward so that a hypersonic vehicle is sheltered in a cooler area behind it (the shock wave). He moves on to a discussion of the shape hypersonic vehicles for reentry and sustained atmospheric flight. This lead him to the conclusion that the ideal vehicle would be a lens shaped vehicle with a plasma spike. This shape would, he suggests, be able to adapt to the various aerodynamic (and thermodynamic) requirements by changing its angle of attack while still keeping its (plasma torch) spike poking forward to generate a protective shock wave. The best shape seems to be (alas!) a disk, a veritable flying saucer. Happily, his discussion is entirely limited to terrestrial technology. I hope that others with a better technological grounding will read this article and comment on it. To me, the arguments presented in the article were impressive - but far too technical for me to judge. I also hope that the discussion will focus on the domestic technology issues rather than on erstwhile extraterrestrial vehicles. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:07:54 -0800 From: G&G Subject: Re: Global Hawk Eric Rebentisch wrote: > ...The problem is that too many prospective users started fantasizing > about all the wonderfuil things it could do for them and how it would > become the cornerstone of their C4I plan and how it would be perfect > for their particular payload and so on. All the additional interest > drove the program office crazy as requirements started to creep... IIRC this is exactly what happened to (and eventually doomed) the Lockheed Aquila RPV recently discussed on this list... Greg %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% %% %% Reality is for People Who %% %% Can't Handle Simulation %% %% %% %% habu@cyberramp.net %% %% gdfieser@hti.com %% %% %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:36:11 -0700 From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar Frank Markus wrote: > > I wonder how much Lockheed-Martin has been motivated to perfect a technology > that can cheaply detect stealthy aircraft? A cynical observer might ask > whether the main focus of the L-M investigation could be to determine how to > defeat it. The fact that a small firm is claiming to have developed this > technology on a smaller budget and in less time causes me to wonder. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com] > On Behalf Of Terry W. Colvin > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:26 AM > To: Skunk Works > Subject: FWD: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar > > - - So That Is How You Do It - - > > < http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16762.html > > > Researchers in Washington state have found a way to use ordinary FM radio > waves for radar detection. That has defense contractors very interested. > > Such passive detection mode relies on existing FM signals to "paint" objects > like planes, mountains, and weather systems. The researchers have come up > with > a system that uses PCs and existing technology that can be put in the field > for $25,000. > > In contrast, the passive system that Lockheed Martin has been working on for > the Pentagon for the past 15 years remains classified. > > Lockheed Martin officials plan to meet the researchers soon. > As a defector from a large aerospace firm to a small company I can emphatically confirm that small companies have a huge advantage in terms of productivity and lack of internal bureaucratic impediments and are inclined to find cheap solutions (as opposed to expensive solutions) to problems. I can get at least 4-6 times the amount of work done for the same money now because of my much smaller overhead burden and elimination of non-value added meetings and procedures. This sounds like real-time computed tomography, i.e. computationally intensive. Is a Pentium II up to this Larry? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:39:50 +0100 (MET) From: pharabod@in2p3.fr Subject: Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) > The December issue of 'Air International' > magazine includes (at p.344) an article > called "Plasma Balls and Fire Sheats" that > discusses work being done at Rensselaer > Polytechnic Institute which seeks a means > of protecting aircraft flying at 30,000 kts > from atmospheric heating. > [snip] > Frank Marcus (Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:32:09 -0500) In 1995, at Rensselaer P. I., Leik Myrabo tested this concept up to Mach 10 in the wind tunnel of the Institute. It worked. Also, the shock wave was reduced. J. Pharabod ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:27:39 -0500 From: Ron and Louise Crawford Subject: Re: Hypersonic Revolution Peter- Could you post ISBN's or sourcing for the hypersonics report set? Amazon and B&N didn't show a listing. Thanks, Ron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:25:32 -0700 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: Re: FWD: (UASR) Rock 'n' Roll Radar Terry Colvin wrote: >- - So That Is How You Do It - - > < http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16762.html > >Researchers in Washington state have found a way to use ordinary FM radio >waves for radar detection. That has defense contractors very interested. >Such passive detection mode relies on existing FM signals to "paint" objects >like planes, mountains, and weather systems. The researchers have come up with >a system that uses PCs and existing technology that can be put in the field >for $25,000. [snip] Yes, I've been following the progress of this bistatic radar project for a couple of years because of its counter-stealth potential. It has a Web presence, not very up to date, at http://isdl.ee.washington.edu/SPP/Projects/Manastash/ . BTW, similar concepts have been worked on many times in the past, but the growth in signal processing capabilities has rekindled interest in the past several years. A good reference is "Bistatic Radar" by Nicholas Willis, ISBN 089006427X. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:45:31 -0700 From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) Frank Markus wrote: > > The December 1998 issue of 'Air International" magazine includes (at p.344) > an article called "Plasma Balls and Fire Sheaths" that discusses work being > done at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute which seeks a means of protecting > aircraft flying at 30,000 kts from atmospheric heating. > > After discussion of the technology of heat shields, Dr. David Baker, moves > to an explanation of the new work which uses a projecting spike that > generates an electric arc spike (a plasma) to move the shock wave > sufficiently forward so that a hypersonic vehicle is sheltered in a cooler > area behind it (the shock wave). > > He moves on to a discussion of the shape hypersonic vehicles for reentry and > sustained atmospheric flight. This lead him to the conclusion that the > ideal vehicle would be a lens shaped vehicle with a plasma spike. This > shape would, he suggests, be able to adapt to the various aerodynamic (and > thermodynamic) requirements by changing its angle of attack while still > keeping its (plasma torch) spike poking forward to generate a protective > shock wave. > > The best shape seems to be (alas!) a disk, a veritable flying saucer. > Happily, his discussion is entirely limited to terrestrial technology. > I haven't read the article, but I am very skeptical of these schemes, particularly when they are bandied about in the popular press before there is any consensus in the technical community (need I say Cold Fusion?). Any object traveling faster than the speed of sound in a fluid medium generates a shock wave as the fluid is suddenly deflected around the object. The only way to avoid creating a shock is to have an object with zero volume. The thermodynamic conditions across the shock can be found by applying the principles of the conservation of mass, momentum (force balance), and energy. No one has found an example where these conservation laws do not hold. The result for a shock wave is that the absolute gas temperature (i.e. degrees Kelvin) is multiplied several times from the freestream value by slowing and turning of the flow by the shock wave. Further slowing of the flow in the boundary layer on the surfaces of solid objects results in even higher gas temperatures which drives heat into any "cold" body at a very high rate. It requires a large amount of energy to create and maintain a large plasma volume at high pressure (look at the tokamak fusion reactors) - how is this power generated on board and efficiently coupled into the air? If I pump alot of energy into the flow in front of the vehicle it seems it would instead further increase the heat load I have to handle, especially since the surface is likely to be active in the plasma recombination process. The Russians have purportedly (Paul Czysz) proposed using a strong neutron source to achieve a *low* level of ionization of the air in front of their AJAX vehicle - I can't believe this would ever fly (shades of Project Pluto - care to comment on that one Peter Merlin?). If I optimize the vehicle shape for hypersonic flight how do I land it at a reasonable speed? (the most dangerous phase of flight). I have alot of questions and I haven't seen any good answers. As usual, the details are important. I suspect its a technology fad. By the way, 30,000 knots is way beyond low earth orbital speed and faster than the Apollo reentry. Surely this is a typo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:48:37 -0800 From: "A.J. Craddock" Subject: Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) I have a video by Sean Morton from several years back shot from Freedom Ridge in which a winged plane can be seen landing at Groom Lake at night clearly projecting some kind of a plasma/microwave field in front of it. The field can be seen due to the visual distortion it causes. Believe I posted this to this List at the time. Tony Craddock ********** At 06:32 AM 12/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >The December 1998 issue of 'Air International" magazine includes (at p.344) >an article called "Plasma Balls and Fire Sheaths" that discusses work being >done at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute which seeks a means of protecting >aircraft flying at 30,000 kts from atmospheric heating. > >After discussion of the technology of heat shields, Dr. David Baker, moves >to an explanation of the new work which uses a projecting spike that >generates an electric arc spike (a plasma) to move the shock wave >sufficiently forward so that a hypersonic vehicle is sheltered in a cooler >area behind it (the shock wave). > >He moves on to a discussion of the shape hypersonic vehicles for reentry and >sustained atmospheric flight. This lead him to the conclusion that the >ideal vehicle would be a lens shaped vehicle with a plasma spike. This >shape would, he suggests, be able to adapt to the various aerodynamic (and >thermodynamic) requirements by changing its angle of attack while still >keeping its (plasma torch) spike poking forward to generate a protective >shock wave. > >The best shape seems to be (alas!) a disk, a veritable flying saucer. >Happily, his discussion is entirely limited to terrestrial technology. > >I hope that others with a better technological grounding will read this >article and comment on it. To me, the arguments presented in the article >were impressive - but far too technical for me to judge. I also hope that >the discussion will focus on the domestic technology issues rather than on >erstwhile extraterrestrial vehicles. > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:37:25 -0700 From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) A.J. Craddock wrote: > > I have a video by Sean Morton from several years back shot from Freedom > Ridge in which a winged plane can be seen landing at Groom Lake at night > clearly projecting some kind of a plasma/microwave field in front of it. > The field can be seen due to the visual distortion it causes. > > Believe I posted this to this List at the time. > > Tony Craddock > > ********** > > At 06:32 AM 12/16/98 -0500, you wrote: > >The December 1998 issue of 'Air International" magazine includes (at p.344) > >an article called "Plasma Balls and Fire Sheaths" that discusses work being > >done at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute which seeks a means of protecting > >aircraft flying at 30,000 kts from atmospheric heating. > > So what does a plasma/microwave field look like? You can tell that it's a plasma/microwave field visually from several miles away? Since plasmas are electrally conductive and reflect radar, was there a measurement of a variation in the radar cross-section that supports this supposition? Was there a measurement of a strong microwave side-lobe correlated with the position and orientation of the aircraft? What frequency was it and does known physics indicate it can efficiently ionize air? Or was it dust scattering light from the landing lights? Or was it the exhaust seen from a low angle? Or did it just look funny and you're fantasizing about wanna-be technology? Black programs certainly exist (even dumb ones), but this sounds like pretty wild speculation. Even the most sensitive technology doesn't stay secret very long, e.g. radar in WW II and nuclear weapons (as shown recently by Pakistan & India). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:44:13 -0800 From: ehoel@esri.com Subject: RE: Flying Saucer (On Topic!) Brad Hitch wrote in response to Frank Markus: ... chop ... > The Russians have purportedly (Paul > Czysz) proposed using a strong neutron source to achieve a *low* level > of ionization of the air in front of their AJAX vehicle - I can't > believe this would ever fly (shades of Project Pluto - care to comment > on that one Peter Merlin?). Project Pluto - this is a fascinating one. A few years ago there was a small amount of discussion on this list concerning Pluto (around 12/5/96 ?); does anyone have any information to share? I do have three images of Pluto if anyone is interested. Two are images of test engines, and the third is an artist's concept drawing of the engine test area. Erik - -- Erik Hoel mailto:ehoel@esri.com Environmental Systems Research Institute http://www.esri.com 380 New York Street 909-793-2853 (x1-1548) tel Redlands, CA 92373-8100 909-307-3067 fax ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V7 #89 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. 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