From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #19 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Friday, March 19 1999 Volume 08 : Number 019 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: What skunkish things are there left? (Longish) Another new F-117 book? Re: What skunkish things are there left? What skunkish things are there left? Re: What skunkish things are there left? re:sonic booms/carson city Re: What skunkish things are there left? B-52 article Re: B-52 article Re: sonic booms/carson city Re: What skunkish things are there left? Re: What skunkish things are there left? HAVE BLUE Re: Another new F-117 book? FW: SR-71 License Plates for non-Virginians B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects Re: B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects Re: What skunkish things are there left? HAVE BLUE RE: B-52 article *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:06:45 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? (Longish) Allen Thomson wrote: >As an on-and-off follower of Skunk Works, I find myself asking, "Why does >the list exist? Does it still have a topic?" Good questions. When I first joined the SW List around four or five years ago, the Welcome msg specifically mentioned stuff like Aurora and TR-3a as being on topic. It also stated that although the B-2 wasn't a SW product that was OK too. In short, the list was here to discuss cutting edge aerospace developments, past, present and speculative. Over the years, there seems to be less and less interest in any meaningful discussion of alleged 'black' programmes; understandable when you consider the distinct lack of data on them. It's far safer to reach down a book on the U-2 etc. and quote from it, than make an educated or semi-educated guess on what might be flying around. My bet is that it won't be long before another black programme comes out. Then the same people who were dismissing it as an urban legend will quite happily correct others on questions like the type of turbofans it uses, range etc. >At the beginning of the decade, there were more-or-less plausible reports of >funny things in the sky that sometimes correlated with strange >sounds/seismic signals/whatever. In addition, there were budget analyses >that seemed to correllate with Something Hidden going on in the >aerospacereconnassaince world. And so forth. True. I don't see why anyone here would have to do too many high-g mental manoeuvres to believe a high speed a/c could be built - whether it became operational is another issue. The question of could the SW or Phantom Works etc. build a hypersonic a/c is too dumb to even ask, yet people happily sneer at newcomers who ask about Aurora. I've received a fair amount of good natured flak for suggesting that, on the balance of probabilities, a LO recon. a/c is flying around and has been for some years. That's fine, if a hypothesis doesn't stand up to criticism, it's not worth much. > >Now, what? > >Mostly, I'd say, it's the peculiar deficiency in aerial reconnaissance (U-2 >shortfalls, SR-71 absence), plus the continued operation of Area 51 that >*might* point to something interesting flying up there. No question that the US takes advanced aerospace very seriously and will do whatever it takes to keep its dominant position. One thing I know I can take to the bank: Chris Gibson saw a 75 degree sweep delta over the North Sea >ten< years ago. I have absolute faith that the a/c he saw is not acknowledged. The notion that it was an F-111 is frankly laughable, and people who write that stuff would do well to speak to the primary witness personally. Looking at a planview of an F-111 might help too. Talking of which, just take a look at a planview of the F-111 with fully retacted wings and >try< to make it look like a PURE delta: 1) The F-111 Inflight Refuelling manual states wings should be forward to at least 26 degrees for air refuelling. Fully swept is 72 degrees. An F-111 with fully swept wings is not very manoeuvrable at the 300 knot speed envelope used in KC-135 refuelling. Lowering of flaps/slats is mechanically prevented at sweeps greater than 26 degrees, so they would be no help. 2) The forward section of the F-111 doesn't blend in a smooth line with the midsection. 3) There's a distinct notch between the wingtips and the tailplane. 4) There's a clear gap running between the wing trailing edge and the tailplane's leading edge. 5) The trailing edge of the tailplane runs forward and its tip is clipped at an angle. 6) There's another distinct notch on the centreline for the twin engines. 7) The vertical stab extends past the jet pipes. Now consider Gibson's a real expert in a/c recog. add to that his highly sceptical nature and you have (to my way of looking at it) a solid gold sighting of a plane that's not in the inventory. Chris didn't say what it was, simply that it was in the air. There are some specifics. I'd welcome any criticism. On the subject of U-2s/TR-2s: If Powers could be brought down by a missile in 1960 why, given the advances and availability of FSU missiles and a/c is it not vulnerable today ? I have no particular reason for asking this other than fielding a question I was asked and had no ready answer for ! Again comments welcome. D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:22:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Louise Auger Subject: Another new F-117 book? Has anyone heard of a book called F-117 Nighthawk by Paul and Alison Crickmore, published by Motorbooks international. I'm not sure if it's actually in print yet, I heard June this year. Louise +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | Louise Auger | | Common sense is a collection of prejudices acquired by the age of 18 | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:50:43 -0600 From: G&G Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? INFORMATION RESTRICTED wrote: > > What are the Skunk Works current projects if any? > One that I am aware of that is: a) not common knowledge, and 2) not skunky at all is the A-4R(?) upgrade for the Argentine AF. The program was originally out of Ontario but (according to my sources) due to bad management by L-O the program was 'given' to SW to 'save'. This preceded the closing of Ontario btw... Greg (worked on APG-AR1 radar simulation) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% %% %% Reality is for People Who %% %% Can't Handle Simulation %% %% %% %% habu@cyberramp.net %% %% gdfieser@hti.com %% %% %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:47:06 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: What skunkish things are there left? This was a while ago, could it have possibly been the smaller and slightly differenrt shaped Have Blue? The pictures I have seen, the tail section sweeps forward and in, and may not even be visible from underneath which may give the plane a delta shape. Possibly? Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz >One thing I know I can take to the bank: Chris Gibson saw a 75 degree >sweep >delta over the North Sea >ten< years ago. I have absolute faith that ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:47:06 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? I was on a tour of Dryden in august of '95 and whatched them do pre-flights of an SR-71, ans saw one come down and do a touch and go at Edwards with full after-burners, not more than two hundred feet in front of us. I expected to get blown to the groung by the sound and or shock wave, but the thing cut through the air like a razor, and was ALMOST dead silent! I was impressed with the shock diamonds coming out the back and a lick of flame that was still touching the ground several seconds after it lifted off. I have seen almost what seems like non-stop testing of C-130 and U-2s at Plant 42 for a couple years as well. Now that U-s is one loud craft. The C-130 I saw had orange wing and rudder tips and a big hand painted "#4" in several places. On a more "skunky" note, while heading uot to Dryden a few years back, I saw what was triangle shaped, similar to the stealth bomber, but too far to recognize. Here is the odd part. You've all seen a leaf fall. It sort of flits around kind of rolling and bouncing almost like a kite whos string broke, very distinctive! Well, as I was heading in the base on Rosamond road, abuot 7-10 miles in, I saw what appeared to come up off the hills a this flitting diamond shape, falling UP. Maybe not falling but you get the idea. I watched it for about five seconds, while reaching for my monocular on the floor. As I brought the monocular up to my right eye, keeping my left eye open to aim, it stopped, appeared to level, and in what I would guess to be not more than half a second to one second at the most, it shot to the east and disappeared over the hills which were on the other side of Edwards. Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:33:25 PST From: "wayne binkley" Subject: re:sonic booms/carson city dear kurt,thats really,really weird.just a wag.could it possibly,by some stretch of imagination have been two airframes breaking the sound barrier over some remote desert?just a thought. wayne d.binkley >From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED >Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com >To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com >Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? >Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:47:32 EST > >Here's one for the list then.. > >This afternoon about 1300, I head two quite distinct sonic booms over >Carson City NV, enough to startle the hell out of me. Any ideas??? > >Kurt > >Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC >Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB >Based In Nevada, United States Of America >In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, >Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, > Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz > >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:38:58 -0600 "Allen Thomson" >writes: >>As an on-and-off follower of Skunk Works, I find myself asking, "Why >>does >>the list exist? Does it still have a topic?" >> >>At the beginning of the decade, there were more-or-less plausible >>reports of >>funny things in the sky that sometimes correlated with strange >>sounds/seismic signals/whatever. In addition, there were budget >>analyses >>that seemed to correllate with Something Hidden going on in the >>aerospacereconnassaince world. And so forth. >> >>Now, what? >> >>Mostly, I'd say, it's the peculiar deficiency in aerial reconnaissance >>(U-2 >>shortfalls, SR-71 absence), plus the continued operation of Area 51 >>that >>*might* point to something interesting flying up there. >> >>What think you all? >> >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:48:24 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? Kurt wrote replied to me: >This was a while ago, could it have possibly been the smaller and >slightly differenrt shaped Have Blue? The pictures I have seen, the tail >section sweeps forward and in, and may not even be visible from >underneath which may give the plane a delta shape. Possibly? Thanks for your reply. From memory, the first Have Blue went in at the test site in 1978 and the remaining a/c went in the following year. As you know, the F-117a was revealed in 1988, almost a year before his sighting so Chris knew about the aircraft and its planform. I defy anyone to look at a Nighthawk and make a perfect 75 degree delta out of it anyway :) The key is the extreme wing sweep and pure delta config. The closest a/c to fit the overall layout was the X-24B and it clearly wasn't that. I've spoken with him on many occasions about his sighting and he never adds or leaves out anything. He didn't say he'd seen the Aurora, Bill Sweetman, a respected aviation journalist made that connection. You have to remember, Gibson was not the only witness, he was called 'topside' on the oil rig by his colleagues to tell them what they were seeing. I've read so much junk about the North Sea sighting that unless I'd sat down with Chris and heard it from him personally, I'd be highly sceptical. Now he's become a friend and I know him well, the notion that he got it wrong, much less that he lied is simply laughable. So when people say there aren't 'black' a/c flying around I know they're wrong. D >>One thing I know I can take to the bank: Chris Gibson saw a 75 degree >>sweep >>delta over the North Sea >ten< years ago. I have absolute faith that ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:13:31 -0000 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: B-52 article I know its heavily off topic, but there's a lovely article about the B-52 and the decision to keep it going into the next century at the following : http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_299000/299193.stm Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:57:22 -0800 From: Larry Smith Subject: Re: B-52 article > >I know its heavily off topic, but there's a lovely article about the B-52 >and the decision to keep it going into the next century at the following : >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_299000/299193.stm Thanks gavin for the heads-up. I don't find that off topic at all! After all, the B-52 has been intimately involved with some of the blackest and most advanced aerospace projects in history! Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:20:49 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: sonic booms/carson city It's possible, the nearest place that would more than likely have craft capable of that would be Fallon NAS, but it's not that remote up here, and with all the fuss and lawsuits against them because of he Hot-Doggers doing this over inabited areas, not too likely. It's really hard to say. Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:33:25 PST "wayne binkley" writes: >dear kurt,thats really,really weird.just a wag.could it possibly,by >some >stretch of imagination have been two airframes breaking the sound >barrier over some remote desert?just a thought. > >wayne d.binkley > > >>From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED >>Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com >>To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com >>Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? >>Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:47:32 EST >> >>Here's one for the list then.. >> >>This afternoon about 1300, I head two quite distinct sonic booms over >>Carson City NV, enough to startle the hell out of me. Any ideas??? >> >>Kurt >> >>Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC >>Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB >>Based In Nevada, United States Of America >>In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, >FT50rd, >>Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, >> Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz >> >>On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:38:58 -0600 "Allen Thomson" > >>writes: >>>As an on-and-off follower of Skunk Works, I find myself asking, "Why > >>>does >>>the list exist? Does it still have a topic?" >>> >>>At the beginning of the decade, there were more-or-less plausible >>>reports of >>>funny things in the sky that sometimes correlated with strange >>>sounds/seismic signals/whatever. In addition, there were budget >>>analyses >>>that seemed to correllate with Something Hidden going on in the >>>aerospacereconnassaince world. And so forth. >>> >>>Now, what? >>> >>>Mostly, I'd say, it's the peculiar deficiency in aerial >reconnaissance >>>(U-2 >>>shortfalls, SR-71 absence), plus the continued operation of Area 51 >>>that >>>*might* point to something interesting flying up there. >>> >>>What think you all? >>> >>> >>> >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:20:49 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? >From what I gather through documentation here in the states, the Have Blue project had flying, though mostly wood, craft of the released design in 1963. I have seen several older vlack and white, and color photos, but I was unable to determine the date. The manner of dress of the Engineers however was more like that of the Skunk Workers of the 50's, very clean cut, slacks, white shirts, ties, and flat-top haircuts, not like the more laid back dressing and grooming of the mid to late 70's. In my opinion, they were much older photos than the 70's Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:48:24 win@writer.win-uk.net (David) writes: >Thanks for your reply. From memory, the first Have Blue went in at the >test >site in 1978 and the remaining a/c went in the following year. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:38:29 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? HAVE BLUE At 05:20 PM 3/19/99 EST, INFORMATION RESTRICTED wrote: >>From what I gather through documentation here in the states, the Have >Blue project had flying, though mostly wood, craft of the released design >in 1963. I have seen several older vlack and white, and color photos, >but I was unable to determine the date. The manner of dress of the >Engineers however was more like that of the Skunk Workers of the 50's, >very clean cut, slacks, white shirts, ties, and flat-top haircuts, not >like the more laid back dressing and grooming of the mid to late 70's. >In my opinion, they were much older photos than the 70's > >Kurt > I would certainly be interested knowing what documentation you have that indicates the HAVE BLUE program goes back to the early sixties. It seems all the rest of us have a different set of documentation. You are also going to have to explain what the extra 10 years was used for and when did it occur. Between the end of HAVE BLUE and the beginning of the Senior Trend program? I have talked to the designer of Northrup's version of the XST. He took his vehicle to WSMR and tested it on the RATSCAT range the same week as Lockheed tested the HAVE BLUE there. And this was in the 70's, not the 60's. I have never heard of anyone finding fault with any of the dates associated with these aircraft. But if you have the documentation it would certainly be interesting to examine. patrick cullumber ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:12:54 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: Another new F-117 book? At 11:22 AM 3/19/99 +0000, you wrote: > >Has anyone heard of a book called F-117 Nighthawk by Paul and Alison >Crickmore, published by Motorbooks international. I'm not sure if it's >actually in print yet, I heard June this year. > >Louise > >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ >| Louise Auger | >| Common sense is a collection of prejudices acquired by the age of 18 | >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > > For those of you who might not be familiar with Louise, I am sure she won't mind if I say that she has a terribly nice collection of F-117 photos at her website. Some of which I am sure you have never seen elsewhere. In fact her collection of Sea Shadow pictures is quite excellent too! Thanks Louise for the book info and your website. They can all be found at: stealth.mudservices.com patrick cullumber ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:34:36 -0500 From: Martin Hurst Subject: FW: SR-71 License Plates for non-Virginians For anyone who may be interested: I finally got a reply back from Tim Cronen, pertaining to the SR-71 license plates. He is the Program Manager, for, The National Air and Space Society National Air and Space Museum, Room 3608 Smithsonian Institution Washington, D.C. 20560-0321 Telephone: 202.357.3762 Facsimile: 202.633.8174 E-mail: tim.cronen@nasm.si.edu His reply, - ----------------------------- The regular sample plate has the word "SAMPLE" plus the Dulles Center on an actual license plate. It costs $10. The personalized sample plate can have up to six characters including space & dash. It costs $20. You can go directly to the Virginia DMV for this. They are at: Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles PO Box 27412 Richmond, VA 23269 Take a look at their web site (www.dmv.state.va.us) You can see the final Dulles Center design and get information about ordering a sample plate. Tim Cronen - ----------------------------- ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: SR-71 License Plates for non-Virginians Author: Martin Hurst Date: 3/19/99 6:54 AM Thank you for your reply regarding the SR-71 sample license plates. As you mentioned in your email, >>"It is possible for non-Virginia residents to purchase a SAMPLE plate of the >>Dulles Center license plate with the SR-71 image." I am interested in placing an order for the sample plates. What is the difference between the regular plate and the personalized plate. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:01:38 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects Larry Smith said, >After all, the B-52 has been intimately involved with some of the blackest >and most advanced aerospace projects in history! Such as? I've wondered about the B-52 as a covert launcher of ASATs, FOBS, stealthy smallsats, etc. But to date no evidence of anything like that. Pegasus clearly shows that any of that could be done, but was it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:28:15 -0500 (EST) From: David Allison Subject: Re: B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects I seem to remember seeing photo of a B-52 with a rocket-mounted D-21 under each wing in the photo section of Ben Rich's book. Pretty skunky to me.... - D - David Allison webmaster@habu.org > >After all, the B-52 has been intimately involved with some of the blackest > >and most advanced aerospace projects in history! > > Such as? I've wondered about the B-52 as a covert launcher of ASATs, > FOBS, stealthy smallsats, etc. But to date no evidence of anything like > that. > Pegasus clearly shows that any of that could be done, but was it? > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:34:10 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? HAVE BLUE I was working at a store in '91 which sold books about the history of aircraft. Each book was dedicated to a different craft. I don't remember the names of any publishers, but this book was dedicated the stealth aircraft projects and how each project tied to another. This is where I got the info. I had no reason to doubt it, after all the SR-71 was designed way the hell back with slide rules and with engines that haven't been topped yet, unless you belief that UFO junk! Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:38:29 -0800 patrick writes: >At 05:20 PM 3/19/99 EST, INFORMATION RESTRICTED wrote: >>>From what I gather through documentation here in the states, the >Have >>Blue project had flying, though mostly wood, craft of the released >design >>in 1963. I have seen several older vlack and white, and color >photos, >>but I was unable to determine the date. The manner of dress of the >>Engineers however was more like that of the Skunk Workers of the >50's, >>very clean cut, slacks, white shirts, ties, and flat-top haircuts, >not >>like the more laid back dressing and grooming of the mid to late >70's. >>In my opinion, they were much older photos than the 70's >> >>Kurt >> >I would certainly be interested knowing what documentation you have >that >indicates the HAVE BLUE program goes back to the early sixties. It >seems >all the rest of us have a different set of documentation. You are >also >going to have to explain what the extra 10 years was used for and when >did >it occur. Between the end of HAVE BLUE and the beginning of the >Senior >Trend program? > >I have talked to the designer of Northrup's version of the XST. He >took >his vehicle to WSMR and tested it on the RATSCAT range the same week >as >Lockheed tested the HAVE BLUE there. And this was in the 70's, not >the >60's. > >I have never heard of anyone finding fault with any of the dates >associated >with these aircraft. But if you have the documentation it would >certainly >be interesting to examine. > >patrick cullumber > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:09:27 -0500 From: Martin Hurst Subject: RE: B-52 article - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE725D.9592BF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the reference to the B-52 update. Its hard to imagine that an aircraft made in the 1950's, will still be going well into the 2040's !!! One wonders that had Lockheed and others had kept upgrading the SR-71 with newer equipment, avionics, electronic, etc., it too might have been considered a more cost effective asset for the Airforce, intelligence and recon. This list is about aircraft performance, reaching new limits and beyond. The B-52 it appears has, is, and will be doing that for quite some time. - ---------- From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 4:13 PM To: Skunk Works (E-mail) Subject: B-52 article http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_299000/299193.stm - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE725D.9592BF60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ii8EAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAMAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHNrdW5rLXdvcmtzQG5l dHdyeDEuY29tAFNNVFAAc2t1bmstd29ya3NAbmV0d3J4MS5jb20AAAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABgAAABza3Vuay13b3Jrc0BuZXR3cngxLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAA HgABMAEAAAAaAAAAJ3NrdW5rLXdvcmtzQG5ldHdyeDEuY29tJwAAAAIBCzABAAAAHQAAAFNNVFA6 U0tVTkstV09SS1NATkVUV1JYMS5DT00AAAAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAA AAL/OgEEgAEAEQAAAFJFOiBCLTUyIGFydGljbGUAywQBBYADAA4AAADPBwMAEwAXAAkAGwAFACwB ASCAAwAOAAAAzwcDABMAFwACACMABQAtAQEJgAEAIQAAADNGRTQ4RkZBMzZERUQyMTFBRjRGMDAw MDIxNjg4RjA4ADkHAQOQBgDUBAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkAoAlDcodyvgEeAHAAAQAAABEAAABSRTogQi01MiBhcnRpY2xlAAAAAAIBcQAB AAAAFgAAAAG+codyQ/qP5EDeNhHSr08AACFojwgAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEA AAAWAAAAbWFydGluaEBpeC5uZXRjb20uY29tAAAAAwAGEOuhfW0DAAcQWQIAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAA AFRIQU5LU0ZPUlRIRVJFRkVSRU5DRVRPVEhFQi01MlVQREFURUlUU0hBUkRUT0lNQUdJTkVUSEFU QU5BSVJDUkFGVE1BREVJTlRIRTE5NTBTLFdJTExTVElMTEJFR09JTkdXRUwAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABL AwAARwMAAHYFAABMWkZ1rED4vv8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMy A8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIMAZJjAEAgVBHAbmsE IEMCEAXAdGhlIBYAZksEkAnwYxuwdG8bg0IELTUSIHVwZGF0ZGUuCoVJdAQgEcFk8xxiB3BhZwuA HFERwAVAqwORC3ByBQBhAYAgAMAPDbAewAOgG5IxOTUwUCdzLCAD8GwDIHNKdCGyYhuwZ28LgGe9 IZBlIcELgBx1AdA0IVGsICEkMAqFTx8hdwIgHwSBBCAfUxHAHoBMb2PeaxugCYAfkR6AbxuRJWH5 JeJrZQUxHTAJwCBwIqLhG5JTUi03GsAD8BuQHiAfICLgBcAKhWVxdY8FIAeAAjAhgGF2aQIg3Glj IXEi8AWQdANgK0HxK4F0Yy4hgClAHGEcgNBtaWdoJcJ2G7AiUP0J8CAFoACBBIEmgiBQBbC/G7AF oCHwKkAN0CvBaS2w3QqFYQQQEgAbR0Ef4BtR/xxALKECMCLxLUAcIyayFgDfLjEdlgqFGuAEACAy cC9x3zSRAaAIYB+BH+ZwBJAbUf8DgTHiFgAA0DSAIrEpgTSx7y0wHiEmsiJQeSUhM48cxfkswWFw NjAR0R5BIXEEAO8q4SbBIaMiUWQikx9TG1L/KmEdcCHgA3AcUQdxOO0K9BEycDE4MALRaS0xnjQj 4AzBQDMLWTE2CqDnA2AdcCvQIC1CVwqHQQvrDDBB1kYDYTpDXkHWDIIvInArATNwCrB5HyBAY5Mr sDahcnUcMGguDbDHBGAzcAWgLnVrQv9EDf8GYAIwRT9GS0TwLnBHgCGAfk0KwBGwIREhgCEgTpAg gDQ6MTMgUE1JT5lEDVRvS49GS1NrSEAYayBXBbAbIShFLRsAwAMQKU9PSl51Ymr/K8FRb0ZLHOMK wCIAR9E+X/k/YzM2QNcUIgwBQdYtYCB0cDovLymBcy6sYmIsgEjzLzSALwnwEmc0wWgvJRBybGTs L2EHgAUQYzCgXPMucMxfMk6QP9AwL2ABISD0My4h8G1aD0DXGjVB1gsKhRUhAGRQAAMAEBAAAAAA AwAREAAAAABAAAcwQFqyfIZyvgFAAAgwQFqyfIZyvgEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9 NwAAd1o= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE725D.9592BF60-- ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #19 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". 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