From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #23 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Sunday, March 21 1999 Volume 08 : Number 023 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: skunk-works-digest V8 #22 *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:15:04 -0500 From: login@otherdomain.com Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V8 #22 ===== AUTOMATIC NOTICE ===== Your mail (attached below this notice) either came from an Internet site which is on my filter's list of sites which have problems with unsolicited bulk email (aka UCE or spam), or had headers or body text which looked like spam to the filter, so the filter intercepted it. If you are a bulk mailer, advertiser (commercial or political), or are sending any kind of "free offer", please remove this address from your mailing list and do not email me again. If you are not an advertiser or bulk mailer, you can resend your mail and get past the filters by including the password listed below on the Subject: line of your message. It can appear anywhere on the Subject: line -- it doesn't have to be first, last, or the only thing on that line. An easy way to do this is to forward this bounced message back to me and either change the Subject: line to the password, or add it to the beginning or end of the Subject: line, whatever is easier. Thank you! ********** The password is IamReal. ********** =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >From owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sun Mar 21 15:08:18 1999 Received: from awod.com (grizzly.fas.com) by grizzly.fas.com with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.23 $/16.2) id AA187816871; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:07:51 -0500 Return-Path: Received: from netwrx1.com (netwrx1.com [192.41.8.79]) by sumter.awod.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27972 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:49:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com) Received: (georgek@localhost) by netwrx1.com (8.8.5) id MAA12546; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:31:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:31:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199903211931.MAA12546@netwrx1.com> From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #22 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk X-Uidl: 69f69c3ade9578889679a2adf1074370 X-SpamBouncer: 1.00h (3/20/99) X-SBRule: BULKTAG X-SBRule: Pattern Match skunk-works-digest Sunday, March 21 1999 Volume 08 : Number 022 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: What skunkish things are there left? Re: What skunkish things are there left? aerospace projects Re: What skunkish things are there left? Re: aerospace projects RE: What skunkish things are there left? Re: What skunkish things are there left? Re: What skunkish things are there left? (longish) Re: What skunkish things are there left? (longish) *************************************************** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:48:45 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? At 11:15 PM 3/20/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:54:57 -0800 patrick writes: >>At 01:08 PM 3/20/99 -0600, you wrote: >>> In the good old days, there *were* things like the >>>Chris Gibsons sighting, Jim Mori's seismic recordings, rumbles and odd >>>contrails: things which could at least be analyzed, discussed, thought >>>about -- scrutinized, in other words. Today, what is there? >> >>No one ever examined Mori's seismic readings and charted them on a time >>line in order to calculate a direction of travel of the seismic booms. >All >>of that data should still exist in an archive. >> >>patrick cullumber >> > >I though I saw a plot in one of those Popular Science/Mechanics >'black aircraft' issues that was a map of California/Nevada, with >dots showing recorded tremors. A series of parabolas had been >drawn through the dots, and the curves (all drawn over the southern >California area) pointed northeast towards southern Nevada. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-===---===-=--= You are correct that a map was presented in the March 1993 issue of Popular Science. It was part of an article by Bill Sweetman entitled "Secret Mach 6 Spy Plane". The map itself is of the LA Basin. The parabolas (12 of them) are drawn as if they were evenly spaced to represent possibly the expanding shock cone. Not sure what the parabola represent. Very few go thru the marked seismic indicators shown. And thats assuming the indicators are shown in the correct location. And shock waves are continuous. Does it matter that the implied direction of travel is 30 to 40 degrees off the heading to Groom? I think after you reviewed the "map" I think you would agree its an artists rendition and hardly a drawing based on points of distance or time. Good memory though! patrick I am talking about a study - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:15:39 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? According to documentaries, Tacit Blue was the fore-runner of the Stealth Bomber. Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:29:53 -0500 Jeff Clark writes: >On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:18:00 -0800 patrick writes: >>At 01:08 PM 3/20/99 -0600, Allen Thompson wrote: >>>I do sympathise with the aversion many feel for the Area-51 topic >because of >>>the UFOvian associations. But the continued activity there (Janet >flights >>>if nothing else) and high level of secrecy, plus the historical >association >>>with black aircraft development, is perhaps the principal concrete >reason >>>to suspect that, maybe, skunkish things are going on. Of course, >it's >>>quite possible that Area 51 is now being used for classified >activities that >>>have nothing to do with the creation of advanced aircraft -- but >that's too >>>depressing to think about. :-) > >I was reading an old AvWeek this week, from January 98. In one of >the articles they were talking about classifed information warfare >technologies, and then said that during the Gulf war, a number of >secret weapons were not used either because their full capabilities >couldn't be revealed or that they were made available too late to be >used. >They quoted a government official as saying some programs will be kept >so secret that they'll never be used in combat and just keep eating >up funding for tests. Maybe that's what's happened with whatever >Area 51's been testing since the F-117 and Tacit Blue left. > >Also, I remember that Tacit Blue was talked about here when it >was revealed. Was anything mentioned as to what it might have >been a prototype for? Have Blue turned into F-117, so does that >mean something developed from Tacit Blue, or was it a dead-end >flying test bed? > > >Jeff Clark >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:23:47 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: aerospace projects Where can us guys who can't receive file attachments get the pic? Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:38:52 -0700 "Terry W. Colvin" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------30EC0C360C8A2FDF33D2B268 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >At 12:08 AM 3/20/99 -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: >>I seem to remember seeing photo of a B-52 with a rocket-mounted >>D-21 under each wing in the photo section of Ben Rich's book. >> >Blew that one, heres the pic... > >Attached is a JPG (26.1Kb) from Larry Hughes on the TLCB list. > >Terry > >-- >Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > >Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 > >Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * > U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program >------------ >Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List > TLCB Web Site: < >http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html > >Southeast Asia (SEA) service: >Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade > Long Binh, Can Tho, Danang (Jan 71 - Aug 72) >Thailand/Laos > - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand > (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) > - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand > (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site > (Aug 73 - Jan 74) >--------------30EC0C360C8A2FDF33D2B268 >Content-Type: x-juno/st1 > > >--------------30EC0C360C8A2FDF33D2B268-- > > > > This e-mail message originally contained one or more >attached files, but unfortunately we were unable to deliver them to >you. Juno's basic free e-mail service does not include file >attachment functionality, because the delivery of non-text file >attachments is too costly for us to provide for free. > > If you would like to be able to receive (and send) file >attachments, you can do so by signing up for Juno's enhanced e-mail >service, Juno Gold, or for Juno's full Internet access service, Juno >Web. You may even be able to receive the file that was originally >attached to this message, if you sign up for Juno Gold or Juno Web >today -- we try to save all file attachments received by users of our >basic service for a limited time, just in case the users decide to >sign up. (We're sorry we can't hold the attachments for longer, but >with the volume of mail that passes through our computers -- typically >more than 3 million messages each day -- it would be very hard for us >to do so.) The sooner you act, the more likely it is that you will be >able to receive the attachment(s) that originally came with this >message. As soon as your Juno Web or Juno Gold account has been >activated, we'll set aside your attachments for safekeeping. You can >then download them at your convenience. > > To learn how to subscribe to Juno Gold or Juno Web, click on >the >'Advertisements' menu in the main Juno interface, click 'View Index >of Advertisements' and then select either 'Juno Gold' or 'Juno Web' >from the list of advertisements. If you do not see 'Juno Gold' or >'Juno Web' in your advertisement index, you can also learn more about >Juno Web and Juno Gold by sending e-mail to 'junogold@info.juno.com'. > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:23:47 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? The USGS calculated these seismic recordings for years. They calculated speed and direction, and rough mass of the craft. There have been several shows on TV regarding this, and it was even in the Los Angeles Times newspaper. While working as a Seismological Field Technician I developed hundreds of films with "events" caused by sonic booms and various wakes from craft. It was quite easy even with my limited knowledge to trace the path just by marking on a map where similar "events" occurred. The devices I serviced had no time reference, so I myself was unable to calculate speed. Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz >>>No one ever examined Mori's seismic readings and charted them on a >time >>>line in order to calculate a direction of travel of the seismic >booms. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:53:34 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: Re: aerospace projects Kurt, Ask someone to put it on their web site. Terry - - ---------- INFORMATION RESTRICTED wrote: > > Where can us guys who can't receive file attachments get the pic? > > Kurt > > Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC > Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB > Based In Nevada, United States Of America > In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, > Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, > Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz > > On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:38:52 -0700 "Terry W. Colvin" > writes: > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--------------30EC0C360C8A2FDF33D2B268 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >At 12:08 AM 3/20/99 -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > >>I seem to remember seeing photo of a B-52 with a rocket-mounted > >>D-21 under each wing in the photo section of Ben Rich's book. > >> > >Blew that one, heres the pic... > > > >Attached is a JPG (26.1Kb) from Larry Hughes on the TLCB list. > > > >Terry > > > >-- > >Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > > >Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 > > >Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * > > U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program > >------------ > >Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List > > TLCB Web Site: < > >http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html > > >Southeast Asia (SEA) service: > >Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade > > Long Binh, Can Tho, Danang (Jan 71 - Aug 72) > >Thailand/Laos > > - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand > > (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) > > - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand > > (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site > > (Aug 73 - Jan 74) > >--------------30EC0C360C8A2FDF33D2B268 > >Content-Type: x-juno/st1 > > > > > >--------------30EC0C360C8A2FDF33D2B268-- > > > > > > > > This e-mail message originally contained one or more > >attached files, but unfortunately we were unable to deliver them to > >you. Juno's basic free e-mail service does not include file > >attachment functionality, because the delivery of non-text file > >attachments is too costly for us to provide for free. > > > > If you would like to be able to receive (and send) file > >attachments, you can do so by signing up for Juno's enhanced e-mail > >service, Juno Gold, or for Juno's full Internet access service, Juno > >Web. You may even be able to receive the file that was originally > >attached to this message, if you sign up for Juno Gold or Juno Web > >today -- we try to save all file attachments received by users of our > >basic service for a limited time, just in case the users decide to > >sign up. (We're sorry we can't hold the attachments for longer, but > >with the volume of mail that passes through our computers -- typically > >more than 3 million messages each day -- it would be very hard for us > >to do so.) The sooner you act, the more likely it is that you will be > >able to receive the attachment(s) that originally came with this > >message. As soon as your Juno Web or Juno Gold account has been > >activated, we'll set aside your attachments for safekeeping. You can > >then download them at your convenience. > > > > To learn how to subscribe to Juno Gold or Juno Web, click on > >the > >'Advertisements' menu in the main Juno interface, click 'View Index > >of Advertisements' and then select either 'Juno Gold' or 'Juno Web' > >from the list of advertisements. If you do not see 'Juno Gold' or > >'Juno Web' in your advertisement index, you can also learn more about > >Juno Web and Juno Gold by sending e-mail to 'junogold@info.juno.com'. > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade Long Binh, Can Tho, Danang (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:26:20 -0000 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: What skunkish things are there left? Which stealth bomber? The B-2? - - -----Original Message----- From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of INFORMATION RESTRICTED Sent: 21 March 1999 06:16 To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? According to documentaries, Tacit Blue was the fore-runner of the Stealth Bomber. Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:29:53 -0500 Jeff Clark writes: >On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:18:00 -0800 patrick writes: >>At 01:08 PM 3/20/99 -0600, Allen Thompson wrote: >>>I do sympathise with the aversion many feel for the Area-51 topic >because of >>>the UFOvian associations. But the continued activity there (Janet >flights >>>if nothing else) and high level of secrecy, plus the historical >association >>>with black aircraft development, is perhaps the principal concrete >reason >>>to suspect that, maybe, skunkish things are going on. Of course, >it's >>>quite possible that Area 51 is now being used for classified >activities that >>>have nothing to do with the creation of advanced aircraft -- but >that's too >>>depressing to think about. :-) > >I was reading an old AvWeek this week, from January 98. In one of >the articles they were talking about classifed information warfare >technologies, and then said that during the Gulf war, a number of >secret weapons were not used either because their full capabilities >couldn't be revealed or that they were made available too late to be >used. >They quoted a government official as saying some programs will be kept >so secret that they'll never be used in combat and just keep eating >up funding for tests. Maybe that's what's happened with whatever >Area 51's been testing since the F-117 and Tacit Blue left. > >Also, I remember that Tacit Blue was talked about here when it >was revealed. Was anything mentioned as to what it might have >been a prototype for? Have Blue turned into F-117, so does that >mean something developed from Tacit Blue, or was it a dead-end >flying test bed? > > >Jeff Clark >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:17:38 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? John Cashen, the designer of Tacit Blue, told me that it was a forerunner to JSTARS. The idea was that the aircraft would be able to patrol without being seen. Jim Stevenson > According to documentaries, Tacit Blue was the fore-runner of the Stealth > Bomber. > > Kurt > > Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC > Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB > Based In Nevada, United States Of America > In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, > Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, > Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz > > On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 23:29:53 -0500 Jeff Clark > writes: >>On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:18:00 -0800 patrick writes: >>>At 01:08 PM 3/20/99 -0600, Allen Thompson wrote: >>>>I do sympathise with the aversion many feel for the Area-51 topic >>because of >>>>the UFOvian associations. But the continued activity there (Janet >>flights >>>>if nothing else) and high level of secrecy, plus the historical >>association >>>>with black aircraft development, is perhaps the principal concrete >>reason >>>>to suspect that, maybe, skunkish things are going on. Of course, >>it's >>>>quite possible that Area 51 is now being used for classified >>activities that >>>>have nothing to do with the creation of advanced aircraft -- but >>that's too >>>>depressing to think about. :-) >> >>I was reading an old AvWeek this week, from January 98. In one of >>the articles they were talking about classifed information warfare >>technologies, and then said that during the Gulf war, a number of >>secret weapons were not used either because their full capabilities >>couldn't be revealed or that they were made available too late to be >>used. >>They quoted a government official as saying some programs will be kept >>so secret that they'll never be used in combat and just keep eating >>up funding for tests. Maybe that's what's happened with whatever >>Area 51's been testing since the F-117 and Tacit Blue left. >> >>Also, I remember that Tacit Blue was talked about here when it >>was revealed. Was anything mentioned as to what it might have >>been a prototype for? Have Blue turned into F-117, so does that >>mean something developed from Tacit Blue, or was it a dead-end >>flying test bed? >> >> >>Jeff Clark >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >>completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > - - ----------------------------- James P. Stevenson (301) 254-9000 - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:06:08 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? (longish) Patrick writes: >At 10:06 AM 3/19/99, you wrote, I snipped: >> >>Good questions. When I first joined the SW List around four or five years >>ago, the Welcome msg specifically mentioned stuff like Aurora and TR-3a as >>being on topic. >> >> In short, the list was here to discuss cutting edge >>aerospace developments, past, present and speculative. >> >>Over the years, there seems to be less and less interest in any >>meaningful discussion of alleged 'black' programmes; understandable when >>you consider the distinct lack of data on them. [edit] >David I will hopefully clear up some misunderstandings between us. I >prefer to discuss programs that exist or to discuss good evidence of >suspected programs. I personally have no interest in futuristic programs >that the Skunkworks has not yet been contracted to even study. I don't feel there's any misunderstanding or annymousity between us. You've always made it clear that speculative discussion of unacknowledged a/c doesn't interest you and that's absolutely fine. Your comment regarding what the SW '..has not been contracted to even study,' is interesting in that the SW goes to entirely proper and extremely effective lengths to prevent leaks regarding what classified projects they're studying from reaching those outside the 'loop.' It follows that none of us are in a position to make any unequivocal statements on what they have or haven't been contracted to explore. Wouldn't you agree ? >This is somewhat hair splitting but is clear in my mind. I was as active >in pursuing answers to rumors of the Aurora as anyone. As each chapter >evolved it became more interesting. But eventually we ended up with >nothing but a handful of dead end trails that led no where and all started >from a single word on a piece of paper. To me this was relevant when done >in a creditable fashion. >The TR-3A is an even more absurd example of a program that never existed >yet now is producing offspring. Last week we had a UFO friendly memeber of >the list discussing the TR-3B. I don't see any correlation between an alleged LO recon a/c which is perfectly feasible, desirable even, and a back engineered alien tech, based fantasy :) Again, I'd remind you that the much speculated-about TR-3A was once considered a valid subject for the SW List, I'm not so sure if that's the case still, judging by the response shown on the list when we briefly discussed it before. >It is this type of speculation that I do not wish to engage in. If it is >your belief that a program exists then more power to you. Go for it . But >please do not begin incorporating programs that have failed the test of >good logic and investigation to support your beliefs. Black programmes have more to do with perceived need, funding and political imperative than logic. Given the first three factors, neither an SR-71 follow-on and/or an LO recon a/c are illogical to my way of thinking. I know you have a different take on this and that's fine. >It makes zero sense to discuss a follow on to the Aurora if there never >was an Aurora. And as you said, claims of specifics that don't hold up to >scrutiny are best discarded. Especially before they are adopted by the true believers. I agree that the subject of unacknowledged a/c generates a very low signal to noise ratio. I can't see an operational hypersonic spy-plane existing. I can however see a test bed/tech demonstrator for such a vehicle flying from time to time. This may be what triggers the seismometers. > >The best example (worst example?) is Area 51. How many of us run to a good >hiding spot when we hear the term? Agreed. I don't know of anyone in the aerospace business who refer to the test site as Area 51, so when I hear it called that, I expect to hear all kinds of wild tales and don't bother to read further. > >On the other hand, Chris Gibsons sighting is exactly the kind of stuff I >believe this newslist was created for. For all the good reasons you >mentioned we should latch on to this report. I know of some members on >this newslist who contacted Chris and tried to help unravel the mystery. >But to no avail. I think it is sad there is not more interest and more >good professional inquiry into this matter. But each member has his own >interests and that must be honored. But to be realistic, it unfortunately >remains as a single sighting of its kind. Agreed. Although it's interesting to note that when Chris joined this list (he's now left) I don't recall reading much analysis of what he saw, maybe my memory's playing tricks. > >Someone asked a new question and that was could it have been a HAVE BLUE. >Good that someone is thinking about it. I don't believe our thinking is >that far apart. Especially if we both admire the work of Mr. Gibson. Agreed, I hope you don't think I regard you as my nemesis :) I certainly don't. My point is that following the North Sea sighting, to my satisfaction at least, there's a plane flying around of unknown origin and function. Add to that, the handful of good quality reports I've received that involve a large triangular aircraft, one of which had what appeared to have an AWACS-like radome (this from a journalist who hasn't the slightest interest in aviation, much less U*Os !) and questions arise. One of this list's great strengths is its firm foundation in aerospace fact rather than fantasy. I'd hate to see it full of crazy stories about Mach 25 football field-sized craft flying around, because that would require a paradigm shift too far. On that I think we can all agree. D - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:29:10 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? (longish) At 03:06 PM 3/21/99, David wrote: > >I don't feel there's any misunderstanding or annymousity between us. You've >always made it clear that speculative discussion of unacknowledged a/c >doesn't interest you and that's absolutely fine. Good, I'm glad to hear that. I enjoy your contributions. >Your comment regarding what the SW '..has not been contracted to even >study,' is interesting in that the SW goes to entirely proper and >extremely effective lengths to prevent leaks regarding what classified >projects they're studying from reaching those outside the 'loop.' It >follows that none of us are in a position to make any unequivocal >statements on what they have or haven't been contracted to explore. >Wouldn't you agree ? I agree completely!! >Again, I'd remind you that the much speculated-about TR-3A was >once considered a valid subject for the SW List, I'm not so sure if that's >the case still, judging by the response shown on the list when we briefly >discussed it before. I see the Aurora as a legitimate subject for this list. Some apparent valid evidence was presented while some actual sightings of unknown aircraft were being reported. I do believe the topic has pretty much been examined throughly and almost all evidence refuted. And with a complete lack of any more sightings in quite some time I personally see the Aurora as a dead issue. Now the TR-3A is a similar issue. Evidence was presented. The press got a hold of it and used it for all its worth. And none of the evidence was confirmed nor did the plane ever appear. I have more of a personal distaste for this concept due to a personal connection with all of the creators of this fantasy. It was done out of total speculation, with virtually no evidence yet pushed for commercial self serving reasons. I will even go out on a limb and argue that the TR-3A was created by media interests and not by researchers. Again this should also be a closed issue simply because the evidence can be refuted and the motivations for "creating" the evidence suspected. This will also be my albatross! Any future discussion of either of these programs, to be considered legitimate, must realize the above and offer brand new evidence to consider. That is the only reason they aren't proper topics at this point, IMHO. > >Black programmes have more to do with perceived need, funding and political >imperative than logic. Given the first three factors, neither an SR-71 >follow-on and/or an LO recon a/c are illogical to my way of thinking. I >know you have a different take on this and that's fine. I have no problem with your thinking here and don't want to discourage it. We can certainly agree to disagree. *G* >I agree that the subject of unacknowledged a/c generates a very low signal >to noise ratio. I can't see an operational hypersonic spy-plane existing. I >can however see a test bed/tech demonstrator for such a vehicle flying from >time to time. This may be what triggers the seismometers. > I believe this is a popular held view that in deed a vehicle such as test demonstrator could easily have accounted for much of the evidence. I would suggest possibly an unmanned vehicle that flew for several years and was parked possibly for lack of success in producing new technology. >Agreed. Although it's interesting to note that when Chris joined this list >(he's now left) I don't recall reading much analysis of what he saw, maybe >my memory's playing tricks. Your memory is correct. I too was disappointed in its poor reception. This list is composed of some excellent members, only a few of who contribute regularly. I know there are some very technically aware members but one must respect their choices. It seems black airplane researchers are very careful as to who they associate with or confer their data with. This makes data hard to confirm. Consequently one must always consider the source. But if you are aware of this it adds a bit to the allure! > patrick - ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #22 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #23 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner