From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #25 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Wednesday, March 24 1999 Volume 08 : Number 025 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: FWD: (SW) Re: B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects Re: The Area Re: TACIT BLUE Re: The Area Re: What skunkish things are there left? Re: What skunkish things are there left? Re: what skunkish things are there left? Re: what skunkish things are there left? B-2 lighting configuration ? "Black" humor Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? Re: what skunkish things are there left? Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? Russian stealth & Jane's Defence Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? Lee Atwood Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? And so it begins.... Kosovo B-2 debuts in combat FW: RE: RE: SR-71 License Plates *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:19:16 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: Re: FWD: (SW) Re: B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects During my ADC Radar days, I went into Ops one day when the operators where playing a cat and mouse game with a B-52. Radar scope had grayish blanked out area of 15 miles wide and 200 miles length. The operator told me the B-52 was jamming our system and he was somewhere in that corridor and that they had to use countermeasures to try and find it. I was amazed and they told me that B-52 could knock out every radio and TV station in that same corridor if they turned up full power. Ed Miller, Retired USAF TSgt 56 SOW/DO, 69-70 NKP; HQ 7/13AF/DOSA, 70-72, Udorn Det 16 USAFPCS, 74-76, Don Muang Proud Member of AFTN Memorial VFW Post 10249, Udorn, Thailand ICQ #1141626 - -----Original Message----- From: Larry Clum To: Terry W. Colvin Cc: TLC Brotherhood Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:57 AM Subject: Re: FWD: (SW) Re: B-52s and blackblackblack aerospace projects My neighbor behind me was a B-52 fixer (27 years) and has told me that the ECM system now on the B-52 is awsome. He said that with it cranked up to full gain, a BUFF could fly at 500 ft over town and blow every transformer in the city....BS or not? Larry - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade Long Binh, Can Tho, Danang (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:50:03 EST From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Re: The Area The DET 3 AFFTC (formerly Area 51) test site should not be thought of merely as a "hatching ground" for advanced technology aircraft. It has been, historically, but it is also a place where operational aircraft systems upgrades and weapons are tested. Some of the technologies involved in tests at the site include: avionics electronic warfare (EW) low observables (LO) new weapons advanced concept tecnology demonstrators (ACTD) Operational stealth aircraft visit the site for LO verification using the Dynamic Coherent Measurement System (DYCOMS) which can simulate foreign threat systems. Unfortunately, most of what goes on at "the Area" is so sensitive that we may have to wait years for a surprise announcement (like that of TACIT BLUE) or a lucky sighting by a "Dreamland Interceptor." Peter Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:56:23 EST From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Re: TACIT BLUE The Northrop TACIT BLUE was originally a technology demonstrator for a stealth reconnaissance aircraft that could loiter near the forward edge of the battle area. That concept was not pursued, but TACIT BLUE's legacy contributed to the AGM-137 Tri-Service Standoff Attack Missile, B-2A, adn E-8 Joint STARS. It seems strange that an aircraft that looks like "they threw away the plane and kept the box it came in" should use the same approach to low observables ("stealth") that a sleek flying wing like the B-2 does. Peter Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:27:12 -0000 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: The Area U-2 pilots I've spoken to in the past refer to it as just another testing area. Not sure what they'd test there, other than the U-2S upgrades. Gavin - -----Original Message----- From: Xelex@aol.com To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Date: 22 March 1999 05:01 Subject: Re: The Area >The DET 3 AFFTC (formerly Area 51) test site should not be thought of merely >as a "hatching ground" for advanced technology aircraft. It has been, >historically, but it is also a place where operational aircraft systems >upgrades and weapons are tested. > >Some of the technologies involved in tests at the site include: >avionics >electronic warfare (EW) >low observables (LO) >new weapons >advanced concept tecnology demonstrators (ACTD) > >Operational stealth aircraft visit the site for LO verification using the >Dynamic Coherent Measurement System (DYCOMS) which can simulate foreign threat >systems. > >Unfortunately, most of what goes on at "the Area" is so sensitive that we may >have to wait years for a surprise announcement (like that of TACIT BLUE) or a >lucky sighting by a "Dreamland Interceptor." > >Peter Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:48:28 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? Kurt asked: >What mean this JSTARS? It means Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System. It's based on a 707 airframe and built by the Northrop Grumman Corporation It's primary function is " ground surveillance, target detection and tracking to assist ground commanders in understanding the enemy/friendly situation. It also interfaces with ARMY's Ground Station Module (GSM) through a special data link (Surveillance Control Data Link, SCDL) to send and receive target data and Radar Service Requests. JSTARS does for the ground what AWACS does for the air." Hope this helps David >On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:17:38 -0500 "James P. Stevenson" > writes: >>John Cashen, the designer of Tacit Blue, told me that it was a >>forerunner to JSTARS. The idea was that the aircraft would be able to >>patrol without being seen. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:56:51 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: What skunkish things are there left? >>On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:17:38 -0500 "James P. Stevenson" >> writes: >>>John Cashen, the designer of Tacit Blue, told me that it was a >>>forerunner to JSTARS. The idea was that the aircraft would be able to >>>patrol without being seen. A small clarifier--The TACIT BLUE was designed to loiter over the battlefield. The creation of JSTARS, obviously much more capable, loiters at the edge of the battlefield, out of harm's way. (not the same Harm as in "JAG"!!) patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:23:08 EST From: UKdragon@aol.com Subject: Re: what skunkish things are there left? David wrote: Strangely enough, the Skunk Works IS working on a football-field sized craft!.... aka The Aerocraft. It doesn't do Mach 25, but 120 knots is at least 40 percent faster than any previous large airship. Of course, the Aerocraft only gets half its lift from static means, and the rest from aerodynamics. Therefore it won't look too much like that drawing in AvLeak a few weeks back. But they ain't ready to go public yet. Regards, Chris Pocock Information is useless without Intelligence email: UKdragon@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:15:04 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: what skunkish things are there left? Chris P writes: >David wrote: > >fact rather than fantasy. I'd hate to see it full of crazy stories about >Mach 25 football field-sized craft flying around, because that would >require a paradigm shift too far. On that I think we can all agree. > > >Strangely enough, the Skunk Works IS working on a football-field sized >craft!.... aka The Aerocraft. It doesn't do Mach 25, but 120 knots is at least >40 percent faster than any previous large airship. > >Of course, the Aerocraft only gets half its lift from static means, and the >rest from aerodynamics. Therefore it won't look too much like that drawing in >AvLeak a few weeks back. But they ain't ready to go public yet. I knew someone would pick me up on the football field sized craft :) It hit me after I'd sent the mail. I spoke to the SW about it and as you say, the story was a little premature and we'll have to wait a while before they're ready to issue a release on it. I too would doubt that the proposal will look much like the very 'draggy' sketch in AW&ST and the beautiful artist's impression in the Sunday Times ! But hey it's an airship - of sorts and that's good enough for me... David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:45:46 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: B-2 lighting configuration ? I wonder if anyone could help me to quickly answer a question someone sent me ? I've looked in my usual ref.books and had a quick look in the usual net places, but can't find the info. During night flights, does the B-2 have a number of white lights on its L/E ? Thanks David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:48:56 EST From: MiGEater1@aol.com Subject: "Black" humor Some on-topic humor.... > > SHORT FINAL... > >From our "Orville and Wilbur would turn over in their graves" file... > > When F-117 test pilot Dave Ferguson first saw the highly faceted, > unconventional, "slab-sided" Nighthawk, he asked Dick Cantrell, the > program's Chief Aerodynamicist, how airframe ice encrustation might > affect the 117A's aerodynamics. > > Cantrell replied, "Probably improve it." > > (From the forthcoming book "F-117 Nighthawk" by Paul Crickmore, MBI > Publishing, coming July 1999.) John Clark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:40:10 +0000 From: John Szalay Subject: Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? At 09:45 PM 3/22/99, you wrote: >I wonder if anyone could help me to quickly answer a question someone sent >me ? I've looked in my usual ref.books and had a quick look in the usual >net places, but can't find the info. > >During night flights, does the B-2 have a number of white lights on its >L/E ? >Thanks >David Unlikely, but here is a URL for the underside of the Spirit, can,t tell if those are lights on the landing gear OR if they are reflections of lighting on the tires... http://www.northgrum.com/Corp_web/jpeg/b2_inflight.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:41:08 -0000 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: what skunkish things are there left? Something that big must be hard to hide from spy satellites, even in a hanger, let alone testing. If Groom Lake suddenly has a football field sized hanger built then we'll all know...! Gavin - -----Original Message----- From: UKdragon@aol.com To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Date: 22 March 1999 18:50 Subject: Re: what skunkish things are there left? >David wrote: > >fact rather than fantasy. I'd hate to see it full of crazy stories about >Mach 25 football field-sized craft flying around, because that would >require a paradigm shift too far. On that I think we can all agree. > > >Strangely enough, the Skunk Works IS working on a football-field sized >craft!.... aka The Aerocraft. It doesn't do Mach 25, but 120 knots is at least >40 percent faster than any previous large airship. > >Of course, the Aerocraft only gets half its lift from static means, and the >rest from aerodynamics. Therefore it won't look too much like that drawing in >AvLeak a few weeks back. But they ain't ready to go public yet. > >Regards, Chris Pocock >Information is useless without Intelligence > >email: UKdragon@aol.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:49:29 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? > At 09:45 PM 3/22/99, you wrote: > >I wonder if anyone could help me to quickly answer a question someone sent > >me ? I've looked in my usual ref.books and had a quick look in the usual > >net places, but can't find the info. > > > >During night flights, does the B-2 have a number of white lights on its > >L/E ? > >Thanks > >David > > Unlikely, but here is a URL for the underside of the Spirit, can,t tell if > those are lights on the landing gear OR if they are reflections of lighting > on the tires... > > http://www.northgrum.com/Corp_web/jpeg/b2_inflight.jpg > IIRC: The B-2 has a pair of very bright lights in each weel well, so this picture makes a lot of sence. See http://www.whiteman.af.mil/b2pics.html for some interesting B-2 pics. In particular: http://www.whiteman.af.mil/pics/B2moon.jpg Sam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:24:01 +0100 (MET) From: "J. Pharabod" Subject: Russian stealth & Jane's Defence Has anybody read an article written by Cook and Butowski, published in Jane's Defence Weekly, 17 March 1999, title: "Russians offer a radical stealth device for export" ? J. Pharabod ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:21:58 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? Sam writes: >> At 09:45 PM 3/22/99, you wrote: >> >I wonder if anyone could help me to quickly answer a question someone sent >> >me ? I've looked in my usual ref.books and had a quick look in the usual >> >net places, but can't find the info. >> > >> >During night flights, does the B-2 have a number of white lights on its >> >L/E ? >> >Thanks >> >David >> >> Unlikely, but here is a URL for the underside of the Spirit, can,t tell if >> those are lights on the landing gear OR if they are reflections of lighting >> on the tires... >> >> http://www.northgrum.com/Corp_web/jpeg/b2_inflight.jpg >> > >IIRC: The B-2 has a pair of very bright lights in each weel well, so this >picture makes a lot of sence. > >See http://www.whiteman.af.mil/b2pics.html for some interesting B-2 pics. > >In particular: http://www.whiteman.af.mil/pics/B2moon.jpg Thanks for the fast response. As I thought, it certainly doesn't look like there are lights set into the L/E and this is where it gets interesting: I received a report that a witness saw what was unmistakably a B-2...in fact a few of them, with several lights along their L/E. Next question would be why...AAR perhaps ? I thought it might explain some of these sightings of mysterious 'V' shaped lights that we hear of from time to time. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:14:26 -0800 From: David Lednicer Subject: Lee Atwood I was on vacation, so I missed the announcement that Lee Atwood had died. I first met Lee several years ago, when he sent me a letter concerning a technical paper I had written on the Mustang. Lee and I corresponded quite a bit and I arranged to meet him when I was down in LA last fall. Unfortunately, before I got down there, he fell in the shower and banged himself up pretty good and then, almost recovered, he developed a bleeding ulcer. This resulted in me visiting him in the hospital in Santa Monica. Before I left on vacation, I had heard that he wasn't doing well, but his death still surprised me. What really amazed me about Lee was that, for a man who had commanded a large corporation, he was down to earth and quite friendly. Additionally, even in his 90's, he was sharp as a tack and always interested in learning about the latest technology. I will miss him. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (425) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (425) 746-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 02:19:35 +0000 From: John Szalay Subject: Re: B-2 lighting configuration ? At 11:21 AM 3/23/99, you wrote: >Sam writes: > >>> At 09:45 PM 3/22/99, you wrote: >>> >>> >During night flights, does the B-2 have a number of white lights on its >>> >L/E ? >>> > >>IIRC: The B-2 has a pair of very bright lights in each weel well, so this >>picture makes a lot of sence. >> Right , When I got to work this morning, I spent some time reviewing about 2 dozen images of the Spirit and nearest I can determine , there are two landing lights on each main gear and One on the nose gear. On the wing, there are the standard red and green navigation lights however I assume that they would be retractable or removeable, for combat missions I saw nothing to give the impression that there were any lights or anything on or in the leading edges ( other than possible deicing equipt of sometype.) It appears in one photo, what may be possbile "formation" light panels right under the cockpit main windows, but IF thats what they are, they would not be visible to anyone except possibly the boomer in a KC-10 or KC-135 certainly not be visible to anyone on the ground. ( you will remember those strips from numerous photos of the F-4's ) they are not very bright except at very close range.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:22:32 -0600 From: brian.hodge@blockbuster.com Subject: And so it begins.... NATO On The Move, Sirens In Kosovo (Last updated 9:40 AM ET March 24) By Philippa Fletcher BELGRADE (Reuters) - U.S. B-52 bombers took to the air from Britain, NATO warships put to sea and Kosovo tested its air raid sirens Wednesday as Europe stood at the brink of armed conflict between Yugoslavia and the West. Russia, Yugoslavia's big-power friend, ordered a military alert but was still trying to persuade Belgrade leaders to bow to the West's demands over Kosovo. Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov, who faces Moscow's deepest rift with the West since the Cold War ended almost a decade ago, told Russian television that negotiations continued and Yugoslavia "should recognize its responsibility" for solving the crisis. Witnesses saw eight U.S. B-52 bombers take off from central England. The giant planes, able to hit from afar with unmanned cruise missiles, have been flying daily on exercise, but this was their first known sortie since Secretary-General Javier Solana issued NATO's order for air strikes on Yugoslavia. NATO's permanent Mediterranean force of six warships, also armed with cruise missiles, left Trieste at the northern end of the Adriatic. Rear Admiral David Stone told reporters his force "is ready to carry out any mission the alliance gives to it." Yugoslavs meanwhile stocked up on food and lined up for gasoline -- some resigned, others still doubting that NATO was about to launch air strikes against their armed forces. "Let's just get it over with," said an exhausted gasoline pump attendant named Zoran after working through the night. With Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic refusing to put his troops and police in the southern province of Kosovo under the supervision of a NATO-led military force, President Clinton won endorsement for military action from the U.S. Senate Tuesday by a vote of 58 to 41. Outliving the Cold War, the 50-year-old NATO alliance has used its armed might only once -- to force a 1995 peace settlement with air strikes in Bosnia. Having vowed that Kosovo's mainly ethnic Albanian civilians must not suffer in conflict between separatist guerrillas and Serb authorities, it now seems about to attack a sovereign state for the first time. When Solana announced that he had given the order for air strikes, Russian Prime Minister Yevgeny Primakov turned his Washington-bound flight around in mid-air. The Russian business newspaper Kommersant said his abrupt return had cost the country $15 billion in International Monetary Fund loans. Yugoslavia -- which has lost four of its pre-1990 republics to ethnic breakaways and now consists only of Serbia and smaller Montenegro -- regards Kosovo as the birthplace of Serb nationhood. Arrayed against it is the power of the United States and most of its European allies. Experts and officials say the first blows will be cruise missile strikes to disable Yugoslavia's Soviet-made SA-6, SA-3 and SA-2 anti-aircraft missiles and to knock out radar and communications. Up to 400 NATO warplanes could follow through with sustained bombing of forces that might be used against Kosovo's Albanian separatist guerrillas. "We have plans for a swift and severe air campaign," Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon told reporters in Washington. "This will be painful for the Serbs. We hope that relatively quickly...the Serbs will realize they have made a mistake." The Yugoslav Foreign Ministry called in the ambassadors of five neighbor states during the night and warned them not to help NATO. Solana promptly wrote to the same five countries -- Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Slovenia and Romania -- that NATO would defend them if Yugoslavia attacked. Kosovo Serbs are full of fear. Ethnic Albanians, who outnumber Serbs in the province by nine to one, generally hope that NATO air strikes will bring the end of Serb rule. Sirens sounded in Kosovo's capital Pristina in early afternoon but an official said they were only a test. People in Belgrade went about their business as usual on the sunny streets. Some said they did not believe the air strike threat. Others laid in supplies for a siege. The government closed down the leading independent radio. State television broadcast instructions from the Defense Ministry telling civilians what to do during air raid alerts -- go calmly to bomb shelters, where smoking and alcohol would not be allowed. NATO diplomats headed for safety outside the country. Callers to the U.S. embassy in Belgrade were told: "All the Americans have left." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:34:18 -0600 From: brian.hodge@blockbuster.com Subject: Kosovo CNN has a nice breakdown of all the NATO military elements @ http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/10/kosovo/ Including which ships are in the area, bombers, etc.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:26:56 -0600 From: brian.hodge@blockbuster.com Subject: B-2 debuts in combat B-2 stealth bombers make combat debut March 24, 1999 Web posted at: 3:31 p.m. EST (2031 GMT) From Military Affairs Correspondent Jamie McIntyre WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Pentagon confirmed Wednesday that two B-2 bombers made their combat debut Wednesday, dropping satellite-guided, 2,000-pound (900-kilogram) bombs on Yugoslav targets in the NATO attack code-named Operation Allied Force. The U.S. part of the mission has been dubbed Operation Noble Anvil by the Pentagon. The two B-2s took off from Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri for a 15-hour flight to Yugoslavia, refueling in midair over the Atlantic. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:15:33 -0500 From: Martin Hurst Subject: FW: RE: RE: SR-71 License Plates FYI - for those who maybe interested in getting your own SR-71 sample = license plate, email to : questions@dmv.state.va.us - ---------- From: questions Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 9:21 AM To: martinh@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: SR-71 License Plates We will be more than happy to fax the application to the number as = provided. You should receive it before the end of the business day. If = you do not receive it, Please inform me.=20 Jay Stargardt=20 The same application would apply to your situation. However, the cost is = decreased to $10.00 and the plate will be a "Sample" plate, and marked = as such.=20 Jay Stargardt=20 The Department of Motor Vehicles wishes to thank you for your recent = visit to our website. We are pleased to be able to respond to your = inquiry. Please be advised that we are currently processing applications for the = National Air and Space Museum Plate. That application (ASA62) may be = mailed or faxed to you, if you will provide us the means to do so. The = plate fee is $25.00 annually. For each $25.00 collected in excess of = $1,000 registration $15.00 will be paid into the Aviation Education = Facilities Fund, for use by the Department of Aviation to support = aviation education facilities located in the Commonwealth of Virginia.=20 The plate itself may be personalized for an additional annual charge of = $10.00. That message may be no more than six alpha-numeric characters (5 = including a space or dash). =20 If there is anything further we may assist you with, Please, do not = hesitate to contact us. When responding to this E-mail, Please resend = it, in its entirety, so that we may serve you most efficiently. Sincerely, Jay Stargardt Customer Information Services Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles PO BOX 27412 Richmond VA. 23269-0001 >>> "Martin Hurst" 03/20 12:21 AM >>> A short while ago I came across an annoucement that the National Air and = Space Museum Dulles Center was coming out with a commemorative license = plate featuring the SR-71 Blackbird aricraft. I was told by a Mr. Tim Cronen, Program Manager for the society, that I = could find it on this website,=20 http://www.dmv.state.va.us=20 Tim Cronen Program Manager The National Air and Space Society, National Air and Space Museum, Room = 3608, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. 20560-0321 Telephone: 202.357.3762 Facsimile: 202.633.8174 E-mail: tim.cronen@nasm.si.edu=20 Could you assist me in more information concerning these license plates? Thanks for your help, - -Martin Hurst ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #25 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". 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