From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #26 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Sunday, March 28 1999 Volume 08 : Number 026 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: Kosovo TS+ Aurora Program Re: TS+ Aurora Program F-117 lost The serial of the F-117 lost Re: The serial of the F-117 lost F-117 Pilot Rescued.. F-117 Pilot safe! Re: F-117 Pilot safe! re: f-117 pilot RE: f-117 pilot RE: f-117 pilot RE: f-117 pilot What happened to the f-117? F-117 PR Machine Re: What happened to the f-117? Re: F-117 PR Machine RE: F-117 PR Machine E-Bomb F-117 MENS? Re: F-117 MENS? Re: F-117 PR Machine Re: F-117 MENS? Re: What happened to the f-117? Re: What happened to the f-117? Re: What happened to the f-117? Re: F-117 MENS? RE: What happened to the f-117? *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:06:35 -0500 From: Martin Hurst Subject: RE: Kosovo - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE763B.B8B3ED20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also look at, http://news.bbc.co.uk/default.htm the BBC in England, and get LIVE update to the second RealVideo coverage. I find the Americans mostly only give their news from their viewpoint. The BBC covers other news viewpoints, including the American one. - ---------- From: brian.hodge@blockbuster.com Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 10:34 AM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Kosovo CNN has a nice breakdown of all the NATO military elements @ http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/10/kosovo/ Including which ships are in the area, bombers, etc.... - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE763B.B8B3ED20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAMAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHNrdW5rLXdvcmtzQG5l dHdyeDEuY29tAFNNVFAAc2t1bmstd29ya3NAbmV0d3J4MS5jb20AAAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABgAAABza3Vuay13b3Jrc0BuZXR3cngxLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAA HgABMAEAAAAaAAAAJ3NrdW5rLXdvcmtzQG5ldHdyeDEuY29tJwAAAAIBCzABAAAAHQAAAFNNVFA6 U0tVTkstV09SS1NATkVUV1JYMS5DT00AAAAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAA AAL/OgEEgAEACwAAAFJFOiBLb3Nvdm8AcgMBBYADAA4AAADPBwMAGAAVAAYAIwADADIBASCAAwAO AAAAzwcDABgAFQAEAAkAAwAWAQEJgAEAIQAAADcyNzZFRkQ0MkJFMkQyMTFBRjRGQzgyRTA5QzEw MDAwACwHAQOQBgBABAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAA AABAADkAwNTrG2R2vgEeAHAAAQAAAAsAAABSRTogS29zb3ZvAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvnZkG+vU 73Zz4isR0q9PyC4JwQAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFgAAAG1hcnRpbmhA aXgubmV0Y29tLmNvbQAAAAMABhCTzqFkAwAHEMsBAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABBTFNPTE9PS0FULEhU VFA6Ly9ORVdTQkJDQ09VSy9ERUZBVUxUSFRNVEhFQkJDSU5FTkdMQU5ELEFOREdFVExJVkVVUERB VEVUT1RIRVNFQ09ORFJFQUxWSURFT0NPVkVSQUdFAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAvwIAALsCAAD1BAAATFpG dUcG0sz/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7ozEw19CoAI zwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoENsQtgbvBnMTAzFCALChLyDAGGYwBAE3Bsc28gFZDAb2sgYXQsCoUKhYJo AkBwOi8vbgfQQHMuYmJjLgWgLgh1ay8NsWF1bHQKLhyQbRu8dGhlIJBCQkMgC4AgRRkAmRjhZCwb cCCAIGcSAAAgTElWRSB1cPZkG4AfoHQbEB+CEfAFoMkg0VJlB0BWaQ2wGxBVBaB2BJBhIQAuCoVJ 3CBmC4Ag4B+CQQeABRAGYwYiBGBzdGx5ILMCICYRZ2kjoB9yaQXALx0CJJADYSbVdgiQd3DubwuA HlAKhVQflSODBCBubx+BJyUoR3MgoAuAY/UKQGQLgGck6yYxI/cKiyBsaTE4MALRaS14MTQ0DfAM 0C9DC1kxrjYKoANgIdBjBUAtMWevCocwGwwwMOZGA2E6Mm7TMOYMgiBiByFuHmAEcAUhAEACYG9j a2J1/yXwBJAdgR6WMn8w5gZgAjBbNE81W1cJgB0AcyGweY0goE0KwBGwIDI0IKAMMTk9UD0wMDoz NM0TcE033zMdVG86HzVbgHNrdW5rLXcFsIhrc0AdAHR3ci+gxzefPu85sXViajEhQD9tNVtLJeAj kG8tby5zM342L+cUIgwBMOYbvAqFQ9ROThyAYQQgYScwJXCHH6A2ICLwa2Rvdy0BGmYbcGwDIB+C TkFUVk8lwAMQaQGQciYgZUxsZQeAK2EgQBwsdxtRIB2AbjZgQ1EvU1CARUNJQUxTLz1BojhSYDAv a0fjLxu8skkrx3doJXA84HNU8L5wTOEWAB/yH4JVoWEgoP8G4AbQKgEgoBIAHXBXcUs/X0hvSXsa NUq9FSEAXEAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQBAAAAEAABzAAtUrFY3a+AUAACDAAtUrFY3a+AR4APQABAAAA BQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AABsKQ== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE763B.B8B3ED20-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:52:53 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: TS+ Aurora Program Found this web page amongst items in WebFerret search under "mystery contrails." < http://www.colinmil.mcmail.com/colin18.htm > TOP SECRET Aurora Program series, which supposedly includes the SR-75 Penetrator which they say was designed to replace the SR-71 Blackbird, and the XR-7 Thunder Dart, which they believe is carried aloft by the Penetrator and launched at 90,000 feet. XR-7 Thunder Dart Powered by two after-burning turbojets and two Pulse Detonation Wave Engines (PDWEs), The XR-7 Thunder Dart is capable of speeds far exceeding Mach 7! It is assumed this hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft is carried aloft and launched at 90,000 feet by the SR-75 Penetrator. ...< % >< >... - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean@primenet.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8832 > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.seacoast.com/~jsweet/brotherh/index.html > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade Long Binh, Can Tho, Danang (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:59:16 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: TS+ Aurora Program Terry C wrote (with tongue firmly in cheek): >Found this web page...[edit] > >TOP SECRET Aurora Program series, which supposedly includes the SR-75 Penetrator >which they say was designed to replace the SR-71 Blackbird, and the XR-7 Thunder >Dart, which they believe is carried aloft by the Penetrator and launched at >90,000 feet. > >XR-7 Thunder Dart Powered by two after-burning turbojets and two Pulse >Detonation Wave Engines (PDWEs), The XR-7 Thunder Dart is capable of speeds far >exceeding Mach 7! It is assumed this hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft is >carried aloft and launched at 90,000 feet by the SR-75 Penetrator. This has been a security issue for some time now. Testor's models must have several people on the inside to get such a detailed overview :) D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:14:30 EST From: MSU94@aol.com Subject: F-117 lost Serbian TV is showing video of the wreckage of an F-117 which was shot down...Looking at the visible markings of the wreckage, and of the wreckage itself , it is pretty obviously one of Hollomans nighthawks. Lets hope the pilot got out alive. Ron Chambless ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:18:19 EST From: MSU94@aol.com Subject: The serial of the F-117 lost looks like it was 82-806 that got hit...Any got any history on it, whether it was one of the birds used in the gulf? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:52:08 -0600 From: Wayne Busse Subject: Re: The serial of the F-117 lost F-117a #82806 flew 39 combat missions in the Gulf under the 415th Tactical Fighter Squadron, with the name, "Something Wicked". Wayne >looks like it was 82-806 that got hit...Any got any history on it, whether it >was one of the birds used in the gulf? Wayne Busse wings@sky.net http://www.sky.net/~wings ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:29:16 EST From: MSU94@aol.com Subject: F-117 Pilot Rescued.. Just came over the fox news..The pilot was rescued!! Looks like the F-117 suffered a SAM hit.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:37:59 GMT From: georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) Subject: F-117 Pilot safe! Just heard on CBS News that Search & Rescue have been able to locate and return the pilot to Friendly Territory just barely before a Serb manhunt found him!! George ===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 Skunk-Works ListOwner +1 800 520 4873 FAX http://www.netwrx1.com West Allis, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com gkasica@hotmail.com gkasica@lycos.com gkasica@netscape.com ICQ #12862186 Digest Issues at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:22:06 EST From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Subject: Re: F-117 Pilot safe! I though you weren't supposed to see stealth aircraft. How did they manage to hit it? Kurt Amateur Radio Stations KC7VDG/KK7RC Monitor Station Registry KCA6ABB Based In Nevada, United States Of America In use: Kenwood: TM-251A/E, TS-570d, Yaesu: FT-8100R, FT-2500M, FT50rd, Realistic: DX-394, Icom: IC-706MKII, Uniden: BC-200xlt, BC-760xlt, Whistler: CO403DC scanning video reciever 55-806 MHz On Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:37:59 GMT georgek@netwrx1.com (George R. Kasica) writes: >Just heard on CBS News that Search & Rescue have been able to locate >and return the pilot to Friendly Territory just barely before a Serb >manhunt found him!! > >George > >===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 414 541 8579 >Skunk-Works ListOwner +1 800 520 4873 FAX >http://www.netwrx1.com West Allis, WI USA >georgek@netwrx1.com >gkasica@hotmail.com >gkasica@lycos.com >gkasica@netscape.com >ICQ #12862186 > >Digest Issues at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:52:39 EST From: MSU94@aol.com Subject: re: f-117 pilot - ------------------------------- Subject: Re: F-117 Pilot safe! From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:22:06 EST I though you weren't supposed to see stealth aircraft. How did they manage to hit it? - ---------------------------- They are not invisible and invincible, just less prone to be detected using radar. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:26:54 +0100 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: f-117 pilot This must be highly embarrassing for the Skunkworks, but if you think about its task then it had to happen sooner or later. A 1970s design aircraft that managed to survive until 1999 before one was downed. Very good. Good job done by the CSAR teams though. Gavin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com > [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of MSU94@aol.com > Sent: 28 March 1999 05:53 > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: re: f-117 pilot > > > ------------------------------- > Subject: Re: F-117 Pilot safe! > From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:22:06 EST > > I though you weren't supposed to see stealth aircraft. How did they > manage to hit it? > ---------------------------- > > They are not invisible and invincible, just less prone to be > detected using > radar. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:06:26 -0800 (PST) From: patrick Subject: RE: f-117 pilot ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 03:04:06 -0800 From: patrick Subject: RE: f-117 pilot Film at eleven...... http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9903/27/nato.strike.03/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:13:52 -0600 (CST) From: jaz Subject: What happened to the f-117? The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on if enough of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose they may deliver the remains to Russia? jaz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:45:03 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: F-117 PR Machine The F-117 did not survive any better than any other airplane that flew at night and above 10,000 feet during Desert Storm. Furthermore, other aircraft flew in areas of equal or greater surface-to-air threats. The pilots manual mandates that the F-117 flew with ECM escort, which it did. There was nothing in the gulf war that "proved" the viability of the F-117. All it proved was the power of the Air Force PR machine, the same one that prior to WW II said that air power alone could win the war in Europe and that we would not have to insert troops. Jim Stevenson > This must be highly embarrassing for the Skunkworks, but if you think about > its task then it had to happen sooner or later. A 1970s design aircraft > that managed to survive until 1999 before one was downed. Very good. > > Good job done by the CSAR teams though. > > Gavin > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com >> [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of MSU94@aol.com >> Sent: 28 March 1999 05:53 >> To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com >> Subject: re: f-117 pilot >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> Subject: Re: F-117 Pilot safe! >> From: INFORMATION RESTRICTED >> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 23:22:06 EST >> >> I though you weren't supposed to see stealth aircraft. How did they >> manage to hit it? >> ---------------------------- >> >> They are not invisible and invincible, just less prone to be >> detected using >> radar. >> > > - ----------------------------- James P. Stevenson (301) 254-9000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:44:13 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? At 05:13 AM 3/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on if enough >of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose they >may deliver the remains to Russia? > >jaz > ===-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Now it all depends. If you accept the folk lore that it is a secret airplane then you can imagine any scenario you choose to. If you break down the various aspects of this airplane one could argue the loss is negligible. The RAM has been available commercially for many years, even in England. The "faceted design" was developed as a result of an early translated Russian study and was produced using 20 year old computer design. Stealth design today is way beyond that of the 117. Electronics include current design systems that are not necessarily secret or revolutionary. Remember many F-117 systems were borrowed from other programs 20 years ago. Texas Instruments will claim their IR weapons sighting system is state of the art, and it is. But Russia also uses state of the art IR systems too. So no new theories are being divulged but just another way to package current systems technologies. Once again.....the reason a guarded, roped off perimeter is established at airshow static displays of the 117 is for one reason only. It is "touch sensitive" due to the RAM coating. They don't want little kids sitting on daddy's shoulders sticking car keys into the RAM coating while the plane is on display. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:17:40 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: F-117 PR Machine At 08:45 AM 3/28/99 -0500, James P. Stevenson wrote: >The F-117 did not survive any better than any other airplane that flew >at night and above 10,000 feet during Desert Storm. Furthermore, other >aircraft flew in areas of equal or greater surface-to-air threats. > >The pilots manual mandates that the F-117 flew with ECM escort, which it >did. > >There was nothing in the gulf war that "proved" the viability of the >F-117. All it proved was the power of the Air Force PR machine, the same >one that prior to WW II said that air power alone could win the war in >Europe and that we would not have to insert troops. > Jim, I would agree with you. The F-111 also flew in the Gulf without a scratch. But Ralph Getchell, a squadron leader of F-117's during the Gulf War has written about the argument that 117's flew with ECM cover. He insists that while ECM squadrons were tasked to play with Iraqi radars before some 117 missions that once the 117's crossed over the border of Iraq that all ECM support operations were complete. He claims these ECM squadrons conducted their jamming independently and oblivious to the 117's presence and never flew with them while over Iraq. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 18:00:56 +0100 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: F-117 PR Machine > Jim, I would agree with you. The F-111 also flew in the Gulf > without a > scratch. The UK's Jaguar also flew without any lost and that's been around for decades. I'm wondering if the ECM was used to confuse the Iraqis so they didn't look for any stealth fighters coming across the border Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:45:33 +0100 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: E-Bomb Does anyone know anything about this E-Bomb that the B-2 has been dropping in Kosovo? There was a basic/simple article about it in a newspaper here today. They said it projects an EMP in a two mile area, using high powered microwaves. Its too heavy to carry on a cruise missle o the B-w carries it. Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:54:38 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: F-117 MENS? In the normal course of things, a new airplane like the F-117 would have needed a Mission Element Need Statement (MENS) telling what missions it was supposed to perform and how it was going to do them. If there was one, it presumably was written ca. 1979 and addressed things in a NATO vs Warsaw Pact context. Which leads me to wonder if the F-117 is currently being used in ways compatible with its original purpose and design. Any of you know whether the original MENS or similar document has ever been released? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:19:33 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: F-117 MENS? At 11:54 AM 3/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >In the normal course of things, a new airplane like the F-117 would have >needed a Mission Element Need Statement (MENS) telling what missions it was >supposed to perform and how it was going to do them. If there was one, it >presumably was written ca. 1979 and addressed things in a NATO vs Warsaw >Pact context. Which leads me to wonder if the F-117 is currently being >used in ways compatible with its original purpose and design. > >Any of you know whether the original MENS or similar document has ever been >released? > I don't believe the Pentagon has yet even released the cause of the 117 crash. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:47:41 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: F-117 PR Machine > At 08:45 AM 3/28/99 -0500, James P. Stevenson wrote: >>The F-117 did not survive any better than any other airplane that flew >>at night and above 10,000 feet during Desert Storm. Furthermore, other >>aircraft flew in areas of equal or greater surface-to-air threats. >> >>The pilots manual mandates that the F-117 flew with ECM escort, which it >>did. >> >>There was nothing in the gulf war that "proved" the viability of the >>F-117. All it proved was the power of the Air Force PR machine, the same >>one that prior to WW II said that air power alone could win the war in >>Europe and that we would not have to insert troops. >> > > > Jim, I would agree with you. The F-111 also flew in the Gulf without a > scratch. Let me repeat: nor did any aircraft that flew above 10,000 ft and at night. > > But Ralph Getchell, a squadron leader of F-117's during the Gulf War has > written about the argument that 117's flew with ECM cover. He insists that > while ECM squadrons were tasked to play with Iraqi radars before some 117 > missions that once the 117's crossed over the border of Iraq that all ECM > support operations were complete. He claims these ECM squadrons conducted > their jamming independently and oblivious to the 117's presence and never > flew with them while over Iraq. Tell him to read the GAO report; then ask him why the pilot's manual states that the F-117 fly with ECM cover. Jim Stevenson > > patrick > - ----------------------------- James P. Stevenson (301) 254-9000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:49:47 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: F-117 MENS? There was no MENS. See, Aronstein and Piccirillo's Have Blue book from AIAA. Jim Stevenson > In the normal course of things, a new airplane like the F-117 would have > needed a Mission Element Need Statement (MENS) telling what missions it was > supposed to perform and how it was going to do them. If there was one, it > presumably was written ca. 1979 and addressed things in a NATO vs Warsaw > Pact context. Which leads me to wonder if the F-117 is currently being > used in ways compatible with its original purpose and design. > > Any of you know whether the original MENS or similar document has ever been > released? > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:31:21 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? > The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on if enough > of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose they > may deliver the remains to Russia? > > jaz > They already have!!!! Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:58:38 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? > > The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on if enough > > of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose they > > may deliver the remains to Russia? > > > > jaz > > > > They already have!!!! > > Sam > Regardless of whether the F-117's stealth technology is obsolete by now or not, WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED ANYONE TO GET A SPECIMEN! Even a partially destroyed one. This was inexcusable. I understand that when you send aircraft into combat they get shot down, but this was a huge mistake. What really pissed me off was the fact that we didn't even bother to destroy the wreckage!!! If a certain "fine" person and a group of "fine" politicians hadn't sold off our military, then perhaps we wouldn't have had this problem. Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:01:50 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? Sam, You are getting excited over nothing. Stealth doesn't work so if our enemies want to throw their money away like we have on something of no additional value, let them do it. Jim Stevenson >> > The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on if enough >> > of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose they >> > may deliver the remains to Russia? >> > >> > jaz >> > >> >> They already have!!!! >> >> Sam >> > > Regardless of whether the F-117's stealth technology is obsolete by now or > not, > WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED ANYONE TO GET A SPECIMEN! Even a partially > destroyed one. > > This was inexcusable. I understand that when you send aircraft into combat > they > get shot down, but this was a huge mistake. What really pissed me off was the > fact that we didn't even bother to destroy the wreckage!!! > > If a certain "fine" person and a group of "fine" politicians hadn't sold > off our > military, then perhaps we wouldn't have had this problem. > > Sam > - ----------------------------- James P. Stevenson (301) 254-9000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:04:23 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: Re: F-117 MENS? Jim Stevenson said, >There was no MENS. See, Aronstein and Piccirillo's Have Blue book from >AIAA. That, as a quick trip to Amazon indicates, would be "Have Blue and the F-117a: Evolution of the 'Stealth Fighter'", by David C. Aronstein and Albert C. Piccirillo, ISBN 1563472457. Thanks for the reference. It's a bit pricey to buy, but I'll put in a request at the library tomorrow. But, if there was no MENS or equivalent, why did we buy the thing? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:04:33 -0500 From: Martin Hurst Subject: RE: What happened to the f-117? - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE795E.B1862D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would hardly say it doesn't work. The Nighthawk has and is the only = aircraft that can penetrate heavily defended areas and destroy them. = This has been proven several times passed with great success. We still don't know what caused the F117 to go down. Was it a = malfunction or was it a malfunction that caused it to show up on enemy = radar, or was it just luck that a SAM got it (one of those shots in the = dark so to speak that got it). Ben Rich mentions in his book about an F117 pilot who was over Irag. The = pilot's bombay doors stuck open after he fired his missile. An Iragi = SAM had locked onto him because of the flapped opened bay doors. The = pilot finally managed to manually pull a lever that closed the doors. As = a result the SAM lost its lock on the plane and sailed passed him. A = close call to say the least. That incident could have very easily been = the Nighthawk's first fatality back then. Like I said we haven't heard any word yet what really happened. I'm sure = the military wouldn't release that kind of information right away, = fearing that Serb's might some how use it to their advantage. The Serb don't have any better radar defenses than the Iragi's had, = better trained perhaps than the Iragis though. I wonder if Jay Miller from Skunkworks could shed some light on the = incident? - ---------- From: James P. Stevenson Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 7:01 PM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? Sam, You are getting excited over nothing. Stealth doesn't work so if our enemies want to throw their money away like we have on something of no additional value, let them do it. Jim Stevenson >> > The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on = if enough >> > of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose = they >> > may deliver the remains to Russia? >> > >> > jaz >> > >> >> They already have!!!! >> >> Sam >> > > Regardless of whether the F-117's stealth technology is obsolete by = now or > not, > WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED ANYONE TO GET A SPECIMEN! Even a = partially > destroyed one. > > This was inexcusable. I understand that when you send aircraft into = combat > they > get shot down, but this was a huge mistake. What really pissed me off = was the > fact that we didn't even bother to destroy the wreckage!!! > > If a certain "fine" person and a group of "fine" politicians hadn't = sold > off our > military, then perhaps we wouldn't have had this problem. > > Sam > - ----------------------------- James P. 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