From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #27 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Monday, March 29 1999 Volume 08 : Number 027 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Sorry Jay (not Miller - oops) RE: What happened to the f-117? Re: What happened to the f-117? RE: What happened to the f-117? Re: What happened to the f-117? Re: F-117 PR Machine Stealth Was Tracked On Radar My observations on F-117 loss post-crash health hazards F117 compromised? RE: F117 compromised? Re: F-117 PR Machine Re: What happened to the f-117? *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 21:09:04 -0500 From: Martin Hurst Subject: Sorry Jay (not Miller - oops) RE: What happened to the f-117? - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE795F.38ED91A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My apologies, I meant to say Jay Murphy, not Jay Miller. Sorry Jay. - ---------- From: Martin Hurst Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 9:04 PM To: 'skunk-works@netwrx1.com' Cc: 'Dad Muttoo (Internet)'; 'Dennis Hurst (Internet)'; 'Jay Murphy = (SR-71 Program Mgr)'; 'Jeff Scott (Internet)' Subject: RE: What happened to the f-117? I would hardly say it doesn't work. The Nighthawk has and is the only = aircraft that can penetrate heavily defended areas and destroy them. = This has been proven several times passed with great success. We still don't know what caused the F117 to go down. Was it a = malfunction or was it a malfunction that caused it to show up on enemy = radar, or was it just luck that a SAM got it (one of those shots in the = dark so to speak that got it). Ben Rich mentions in his book about an F117 pilot who was over Irag. The = pilot's bombay doors stuck open after he fired his missile. An Iragi = SAM had locked onto him because of the flapped opened bay doors. The = pilot finally managed to manually pull a lever that closed the doors. As = a result the SAM lost its lock on the plane and sailed passed him. A = close call to say the least. That incident could have very easily been = the Nighthawk's first fatality back then. Like I said we haven't heard any word yet what really happened. I'm sure = the military wouldn't release that kind of information right away, = fearing that Serb's might some how use it to their advantage. The Serb don't have any better radar defenses than the Iragi's had, = better trained perhaps than the Iragis though. I wonder if Jay Miller from Skunkworks could shed some light on the = incident? - ---------- From: James P. Stevenson Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 7:01 PM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? Sam, You are getting excited over nothing. Stealth doesn't work so if our enemies want to throw their money away like we have on something of no additional value, let them do it. Jim Stevenson >> > The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on = if enough >> > of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose = they >> > may deliver the remains to Russia? >> > >> > jaz >> > >> >> They already have!!!! >> >> Sam >> > > Regardless of whether the F-117's stealth technology is obsolete by = now or > not, > WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED ANYONE TO GET A SPECIMEN! Even a = partially > destroyed one. > > This was inexcusable. I understand that when you send aircraft into = combat > they > get shot down, but this was a huge mistake. What really pissed me off = was the > fact that we didn't even bother to destroy the wreckage!!! > > If a certain "fine" person and a group of "fine" politicians hadn't = sold > off our > military, then perhaps we wouldn't have had this problem. > > Sam > - ----------------------------- James P. 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Stevenson" Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? > I would hardly say it doesn't work. The Nighthawk has and is the only > aircraft that can penetrate heavily defended areas and destroy them. Not true. Read the GAO report. Other aircraft penetrated. You are reacting to the USAF PR machine which are assertions, not facts. This > has been proven several times passed with great success. The aircraft did no better in the Gulf War than other aircraft that flew above 10,000 ft. and and night. > We still don't know what caused the F117 to go down. A true statement. Since the government has mislead us on the value of stealth, you can assume it will continue to mislead. > I wonder if Jay Miller from Skunkworks could shed some light on the incident? Yea, Jay, chime in. Jim Stevenson > ---------- > From: James P. Stevenson > Sent: Sunday, March 28, 1999 7:01 PM > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? > > Sam, > > You are getting excited over nothing. Stealth doesn't work so if our > enemies want to throw their money away like we have on something of no > additional value, let them do it. > > Jim Stevenson > > >>> > The pilot is safe, good, but what about the aircraft? Any word on if > enough >>> > of it came down for the bad guys to learn anything? Do you suppose they >>> > may deliver the remains to Russia? >>> > >>> > jaz >>> > >>> >>> They already have!!!! >>> >>> Sam >>> >> >> Regardless of whether the F-117's stealth technology is obsolete by now or >> not, >> WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED ANYONE TO GET A SPECIMEN! Even a partially >> destroyed one. >> >> This was inexcusable. I understand that when you send aircraft into combat >> they >> get shot down, but this was a huge mistake. What really pissed me off was the >> fact that we didn't even bother to destroy the wreckage!!! >> >> If a certain "fine" person and a group of "fine" politicians hadn't sold >> off our >> military, then perhaps we wouldn't have had this problem. >> >> Sam >> > > > ----------------------------- > James P. Stevenson > (301) 254-9000 > - ----------------------------- James P. Stevenson (301) 254-9000 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:20:51 -0800 From: patrick Subject: RE: What happened to the f-117? At 09:04 PM 3/28/99 -0500, MartinHurst wrote: >Ben Rich mentions in his book about an F117 pilot who was over Irag. The pilot's bombay doors stuck open after he fired his missile. An Iragi SAM had locked onto him because of the flapped opened bay doors. The pilot finally managed to manually pull a lever that closed the doors. As a result the SAM lost its lock on the plane and sailed passed him. A close call to say the least. That incident could have very easily been the Nighthawk's first fatality back then. > > To the best of my knowledge the F-117 has no capability of detecting a missile lock-on. Its only defense is its stealthiness. I'm not even sure they have a lever that can close both doors from the cockpit. (I know what Archimedes said!) I suggest this story be put into the folklore section. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:49:58 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? Patrick wrote about the F-117 was: > Its only defense is its stealthiness. I rest my case. Jim Stevenson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 04:03:04 -0800 From: patrick Subject: Re: F-117 PR Machine >> At 08:45 AM 3/28/99 -0500, James P. Stevenson wrote: >>>The F-117 did not survive any better than any other airplane that flew >>>at night and above 10,000 feet during Desert Storm. Furthermore, other >>>aircraft flew in areas of equal or greater surface-to-air threats. >>> >>>The pilots manual mandates that the F-117 flew with ECM escort, which it >>>did. >>> >>>There was nothing in the gulf war that "proved" the viability of the >>>F-117. All it proved was the power of the Air Force PR machine, the same >>>one that prior to WW II said that air power alone could win the war in >>>Europe and that we would not have to insert troops. >>> >> >> >> Jim, I would agree with you. The F-111 also flew in the Gulf without a >> scratch. > >Let me repeat: nor did any aircraft that flew above 10,000 ft and at >night. >> >> But Ralph Getchell, a squadron leader of F-117's during the Gulf War has >> written about the argument that 117's flew with ECM cover. He insists that >> while ECM squadrons were tasked to play with Iraqi radars before some 117 >> missions that once the 117's crossed over the border of Iraq that all ECM >> support operations were complete. He claims these ECM squadrons conducted >> their jamming independently and oblivious to the 117's presence and never >> flew with them while over Iraq. > >Tell him to read the GAO report; then ask him why the pilot's manual >states that the F-117 fly with ECM cover. > =-=-=-=-=-=---=-=-=-==--==-=-=--===---=== Jim you are being unduly harsh for some reason. Let me qualify my agreement with your statements. 1. Other aircraft did fly with an equal record in many categories stated in the GAO report. They mention F-111's flying over the suburbs of Bagdad that according to the report were as heavily defended as downtown Bagdad. But not an area of greater threat as you state. This is a contradiction to the AF claim that the 117 flew over areas of greater threat than any other aircraft. And as they did it at night one could argue it was safer than low level flights over other areas of Iraq during daytime low level flights. 2. The pilots manual does not establish policy or tactics. The report referred to the "Tactical Employment" manual and how procedures were rewritten for those occurences when flight operations included ECM support. It does not state that ECM support is required for every flight. Just as the refueling procedure was altered due to experiences of the war. Refueling is not required by the manual either but when the order of battle or a flight plan calls for it, then that is the procedure to be followed. 3. What the report states that might create some of your doubt is the experience many pilots flying different types of aircraft reported to the GAO. AAA fire generally began only after their dropped bombs detonated. Thus the threat was mostly on egress from a target. Again the AF claimed this was true because of the stealth chracteristic of the F-117. The fact that the GAO determined this experience common on most aircraft does not prove anything positive or negative about the stealthiness of the 117. It says more about the limited capability of Iraq's AAA crews. My point is I agree the USAF assessment of the F-117's efforts are somewhat exaggerated and misleading. In some categories of statistics the plane had an average or even less than average performance as indicated by the GAO's studies. But no where does this report give any indication nor conclusion that the planes lower RCS is not an asset while flying in harm's way. This is an intangible factor which they haven't proved nor can you deny. I will add this for the rest of the readers of this list. I had a chance to interview a squadron leader who described some of the training flights they did during the weeks immediately before Desert Storm commenced. Groups of 117's would practice refueling procedures near the Iraqi border to "desensitize" the enemy. This was done in non stealth mode. When they turned to feign a border crossing more Iraqi radar would be activated. When they went into their stealth mode and followed the same path toward the Iraqi border this radar was not activated. The activity was monitored by AWAC's. So with these cat and mouse games the pilots had a very confident feeling that the concept of low observability had some merit. patrick cullumber ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:35:44 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Stealth Was Tracked On Radar USA Today March 29, 1999 Stealth Was Tracked On Radar By Tom Squitieri, USA Today U.S. officials confirmed Sunday that Serb military radar had tracked an F-117A Stealth fighter and that a missile had been fired in its direction before it crashed Saturday. Though it was unclear whether the plane was downed by enemy fire or equipment failure, the incident has raised concerns about the operations of the jet, which was designed to be virtually invisible to radar. Still, F-117A fighter jets joined a broadened NATO attack Sunday night on Yugoslavia. NATO, which had aimed its strikes at Serb military targets for the last four days, said its raids would now include Serb troops responsible for attacks on the ethnic Albanians. "We are going to move into a wider array of targets including the forces in the field," Defense Secretary William Cohen said on NBC's Meet the Press. Air raid sirens wailed in the Yugoslav capital, Belgrade, after a series of powerful blasts hit Kosovo's capital, Pristina. Aid workers in countries bordering Kosovo braced for at least 50,000 refugees to flee the war-torn province over the next three days as Serb paramilitary units intensified their campaign to force them out. "Genocide is starting here," German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping told ZDF TV. Officially, only 20,000 refugees are registered with aid groups in the region. But the total is estimated at near 50,000, and that is expected to double by midweek. "We are now on the brink of a major humanitarian disaster, the likes of which we have not seen in Europe since the closing days of World War II," NATO's Jamie Shea said. In Washington, President Clinton said NATO airstrikes would continue until Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic stops his campaign of "inhumane violence." "The continued brutality of the Serb forces underscores the need for NATO to persevere," Clinton said. The Pentagon announced that up to 12 more American warplanes, including B-52 bombers, would be added to the nearly 200 aircraft already participating in Operation Allied Force. Spokesman Ken Bacon said four B-52s would be added to the eight already based in England. Officials also said the loss of the F-117A would not jeopardize the U.S. monopoly on stealth technology. "The aircraft itself would be hard to replicate" with the remains of the downed jet, Cohen said. NATO launched the strikes Wednesday after the Serbs refused to sign a Kosovo peace deal that would grant the province partial autonomy and deploy up to 28,000 NATO troops into Yugoslavia. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:44:20 -0600 From: G&G Subject: My observations on F-117 loss If we only look at the video of the crash site what can we deduce? 1) the wreckage was all located in one place, not scattered over a wide area (much like the Maryland(?) air show accident) 2) major portions of the airframe were still recognizable 3) most of the damage appears to be from a post-impact fire (again, much like the Maryland air show accident) 4) the face of the turbine inlet appears undamaged 5) what appeared to be the sawtoothed leading edge of a bomb bay door appears on top of the wreckage 6) the left rudder was seen with it's outer side face-up My impression is that the F-117 impacted the ground at a relatively slow airspeed, probably falling near-vertically and landing flat, just like the incident at the aforementioned airshow. The aircraft did not appear to break up in the air, did not dive in at high speed nose first, etc. Based on the almost pristine appearance of the inlet turbine blades, the engine(s) were probably not running at time of impact. The airframe may have landed inverted, explaining the bay door on top of the wreckage and the orientation of the rudder. I realize that pieces may have been moved/disturbed after impact and prior to the video, darkness and unreferenced viewpoints may lead to incorrect observations, etc. I'm interested in what we can learn from what we saw, not the merits of stealth, whether or not it was tracked or shot down, etc. A friend was convinced he could see the body of the pilot still in the wreckage. When I saw the footage I could see how he thought that but I think he saw one of the FLIR turrets, which he mistook for a helmet. The lack of any announcement by the Serbs that the pilot's body was there was further evidence my friend's rather sensationalistic claim was unfounded. I mention this not to be morbid, only to show that people see different things when they viewed the video footage. Interested in hearing what other people (thought they) saw, Greg Fieser - -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% %% %% Reality is for People Who %% %% Can't Handle Simulation %% %% %% %% habu@cyberramp.net %% %% gdfieser@hti.com %% %% %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:49:23 -0600 From: G&G Subject: post-crash health hazards Another observation of the crash video shows people all around the burning wreckage. My recollection of prior (F-117) accidents includes concerns about toxic fumes given off by burning composite resins and the exposure to the resulting composite fibers. Were these just stories made up to discourage souvenir hunters or are the crash site observers going to experience exposure-related illnesses? Greg Fieser - -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %% %% %% Reality is for People Who %% %% Can't Handle Simulation %% %% %% %% habu@cyberramp.net %% %% gdfieser@hti.com %% %% %% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:06:55 -0600 From: Earle Davidson Subject: F117 compromised? Hello group, I just stumbled on this list and I think I've read most comments on the F-117 shootdown. Tthat being said and taking in to account Serbian lighting and video used to show the downed craft, did anyone notice how HOT that fire was? Also, based on the CNN video I saw, the cockpit and adjacent areas were burnt to grey ash. Is it possible there are some pyrotechnical devices that are triggered to minimize the compromisation of an important technical asset such as the F-117? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:50:22 +0100 From: gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: F117 compromised? I thought about this but wondered if they're actually used. What would happen if the pilot couldn't get out for some reason? Gavin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com > [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Earle Davidson > Sent: 29 March 1999 19:07 > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: F117 compromised? > > > Hello group, I just stumbled on this list and I think I've read most > comments on the F-117 shootdown. Tthat being said and taking in to > account Serbian lighting and video used to show the downed craft, did > anyone notice how HOT that fire was? Also, based on the CNN video I > saw, the cockpit and adjacent areas were burnt to grey ash. Is it > possible there are some pyrotechnical devices that are triggered to > minimize the compromisation of an important technical asset such as > the F-117? > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:58:42 -0800 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: F-117 PR Machine >The F-117 did not survive any better than any other airplane that flew >at night and above 10,000 feet during Desert Storm. Furthermore, other >aircraft flew in areas of equal or greater surface-to-air threats. All US and NATO aircraft are designed to be survivable, and US and NATO pilots have (arguably) the best training in the world to deal with threats. We don't have annual Red Flag and Green Flag exercises at an airbase the size of Kuwait for fun. Attributing in-theatre combat losses to technical aspects of survivability is foolish. What it boils down to is that a number of aircraft types were able to resist AAA in the threat environment of the Gulf War. The F-117, F-16, or ever B-52 may have far exheeded this "surviablility threshold", but since they suffered few or no losses things like the GAO report will all consider them in the same class. That's why the GAO writes reports and does accounting, not fight wars. > >The pilots manual mandates that the F-117 flew with ECM escort, which it >did. It would be foolish not to today. No US aircraft prior to the Gulf War had flown against Iraqi radars. Cover all of your bases. > >There was nothing in the gulf war that "proved" the viability of the >F-117. All it proved was the power of the Air Force PR machine, the same Quite to the contrary- the F-117 is a precision bombing platform, and in the Gulf it did prove it's viability as such. Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ The software you were born with helps you follow thousands of different threads on the Internet, whip up gourmet feasts using only ingredients from the 24-hour store, and use words like "paradigm" and "orthogonal" in casual conversation. It deserves the operating system designed to work with it: the MacOS. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:12:11 -0800 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: What happened to the f-117? >Sam, > >You are getting excited over nothing. Stealth doesn't work so if our >enemies want to throw their money away like we have on something of no Well, do you have anything to back that statement up? There is considerable empirical evidence to the contrary. Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ The software you were born with helps you follow thousands of different threads on the Internet, whip up gourmet feasts using only ingredients from the 24-hour store, and use words like "paradigm" and "orthogonal" in casual conversation. It deserves the operating system designed to work with it: the MacOS. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #27 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner