From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #85 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Wednesday, July 28 1999 Volume 08 : Number 085 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: Couple of things I've come across Re: Couple of things I've come across Re: Couple of things I've come across Re: Couple of things I've come across Re: Couple of things I've come across German pilot in downed F-117A Re: German pilot in downed F-117A??? RE: Couple of things I've come across Royal International Air Tattoo Review Fwd: FW: Couple of things I've come across OT: Other Mailing List Re: German pilot in downed F-117A??? RE: Couple of things I've come across Re: Royal International Air Tattoo Review Re: RE: Couple of things I've come across Re: RE: Couple of things I've come across Re: Royal International Air Tattoo Review RE: Couple of things I've come across RE: Royal International Air Tattoo Review *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:17:23 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Couple of things I've come across At 11:44 PM 7/25/99 -0700, Dan wrote: ~~ snip ~~ > >But back on track... since the late 1980s there have been persistent >rumblings of UK piloits being trained on the F-117, ~~ snip~~ Bandit 282 Sqdr. Leader Graham Wardell (RAF) December 1988 Bandit 354 Sqdr. Leader Chris Topham (RAF) February 1991 (Topham flew in the Gulf on triaining flights but when the war broke out he had to be sent back to the US and rushed thru a security clearance procedure before flying missions over Iraq.) Bandit 436 Sqdr. Leader Ian Wood (RAF) January 1994 My records indicate the first F-117 to ever fly in Britain was in June of 1996 when 4 pilots (one was Ian Wood) flew 2 F-117's there for a series of air shows. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:32:45 PDT From: "wayne binkley" Subject: Re: Couple of things I've come across the USAF has a long standing "flying officer" exchange program with the RAF,RNZAF,and some others.the USAF even has an exchange program with the USN.that is weird. wayne d.binkley _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:59:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Re: Couple of things I've come across Patrick listed the following British Bandits: >Bandit 282 Sqdr. Leader Graham Wardell (RAF) December 1988 >Bandit 354 Sqdr. Leader Chris Topham (RAF) February 1991 >Bandit 436 Sqdr. Leader Ian Wood (RAF) January 1994 and I would like to add: Bandit 540 Sqdr. Leader Al Monkman (RAF) (not sure about the name) (before July 1998, when he was one of the airshow pilots) If the downed F-117A pilot was in fact a German Luftwaffe pilot, the secrecy surrounding his identity would make a lot sense. The political ramification in Germany would be much 'worse' than in the US. It would be a very big deal, if a German pilot flew bombing missions (over Serbia for all places), just shortly after the German military was -- for the first time since the Second World War -- actively engaged in military operations again. The only other acknowledged combat missions that Germans were flying during Operation Allied Force, were Tornado ECR SEAD missions and UAV reconnaissance missions -- both more of a defensive nature. After the UK (and with the exception of Israel and Taiwan) Germany is one of the closest allies of the USA, not only in the context of NATO. The US uses and has used various ex-NVA aircraft supplied to them by the Bundeswehr (German forces) after the German re-unification, including MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-29, Mi-8, Mi-14, Mi-24/25/35, Su-17/22, etc. All German pilots and missile operators were trained in the USA since the re-armament in the 1950s, mostly on German planes, flying with USAF colors/markings -- for political reasons -- including NATO TH-55, T-37, T-38, and Luftwaffe F-104F/G, F-4E/F, Nike Hawk, HAWK, Lance, and others. There are also many pilot exchange programs within NATO and even some other contries, which have also included some sensitive areas. Some German test pilots, who were involved in the X-31A program at Edwards AFB, flew all kinds of interesting aircraft there, including USN F-14s and F/A-18s. Since they moved to Holloman AFB, were they now train in Tornados painted in Luftwaffe colors (for the very first time), the population of Germans in southern New Mexico has increased quite a bit. Germans seem to like the area, and since some POWs were based there during WWII, New Mexico, especially the White Sands Missile Range area, saw various Paper Clip rocket engineers and Bundeswehr trainees from Germany. As a matter of fact, Alamogordo, which is next to Holloman AFB, has one of the best German restaurants I have sampled so far in the US, and Kathryn and I always stop by there, when we are in the area. Germany was on the forefront of the Cold War, right next to the Iron Curtain (now only Korea is in a similar position world wide), for over 40 years. Not only were the first U-2 Overflight missions over the Soviet Union staged from there, but it is also rumored that Germany has also flown some spy (if not penetration) missions with the two German Canberas next to or behind the Iron Curtain. And there is no such thing like a Freedom of Information Act in Germany. It is quite difficult to get any information that is considered sensitive (or even classified). The involvement of British pilots in the early U-2 (CIA) program, seems to be one of the biggest problems in de-classifying that information. I wouldn't be surprised if any German involvement in the F-117A program would have a similar effect. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 313 West Court St. #305 or: gpahl@acm.flint.umich.edu Flint, MI 48502-1239 Tel: (810) 238-8469 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:42:14 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Couple of things I've come across Wayne wrote: the USAF has a long standing "flying officer" exchange program with the RAF,RNZAF,and some others.the USAF even has an exchange program with the USN.that is weird. I talked to a F-117 pilot who was actually a Navy pilot. He said he voluntarily applied for it and was picked, trained and flew the 117's for a year or two. I inquired why there was such a program. Was he required to report regularly to the Navy? Suggest improvements per USAF methods he learned? Nothing. Nada. Go fly the F-117 for awhile and when your done come back to the Navy for your next assignment. He did it cause it sounded fun! At 02:59 PM 7/26/99 -0400,Andreas wrote: >As a matter of fact, Alamogordo, which is >next to Holloman AFB, has one of the best German restaurants I have sampled >so far in the US, and Kathryn and I always stop by there, when we are in the >area. > >Andreas--it is common knowledge in the US Army that the best Oktoberfest hosted by Germans in the US is at Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas. They are notorius for their enthusiasm for hosting a great celebration. Hope this helps in planning your next vacation. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:56:47 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Couple of things I've come across I was recently reacquainted with a guy who has an F-117 website and he has asked me to post his address. I do so for the simple reason he has obviously put a lot of work into a very good website. It is most impressive. LADC should adopt it as their own!! Good show Kevin! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kevin writes....... I enjoyed the article in AF Monthly (Some new info I didn't know) Can't wait to read the entire book!!!!! Feel free to check my site out if you haven't: (Oh, and maybe post it to the SkunkList-Never had my status changed so I can reply to the list.) - -Kevin Helm "The Best F-117A On The Web" F-117A: Aircraft Defense Information Center http://www-scf.usc.edu/~khelm/Shabah.html _ _ _ \\ /_\ // \\ // \\ // \//___\\/ ______/ /|\ \______ /[[/[[/ / | \ \]]\]]\ __________________/[[/[[/ /..| .\ \]]\]]\__________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- \_/|\_/ (_)|(_) / \ / \ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:27:16 +0200 From: "Stefan Dornbusch" Subject: German pilot in downed F-117A Hi there, a German pilot flying a real bombing mission in an F-117A stealth bomber? Do you really believe this? Tell me a reason why the USAF should prefer a German pilot instead of a US pilot? I guess they allowed only their most experienced pilots to fly such a critical mission. I know that the Luftwaffe has a training center in Holloman and don't forget, that most of the F-117s during the Kosovo crises were deployed to Spangdahlem AB, Germany. Several weeks ago I was so impressed by a Night Hawk flying low over my hometown about 200 km away from Spangdahlem Air Base. Here's a picture of a just arrived F-117A in front of the Spangdahlem tower: http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/990585b.jpg Stefan.Dornbusch@knuut.de GERMANY P.S. Andreas Gehrs-Pahl, that's quite a German name ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:02:05 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: German pilot in downed F-117A??? At 03:27 PM 7/27/99 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi there, > >a German pilot flying a real bombing mission in an >F-117A stealth bomber? Do you really believe this? >Tell me a reason why the USAF should prefer a >German pilot instead of a US pilot? I guess they >allowed only their most experienced pilots to fly >such a critical mission. > Stefan I do not believe this rumor. Yes the RAF has a transfer pilot with the F-117's and he did participate in the Gulf War. And yes the German AF trains at the same airfield as the F-117's but.....the best reason for not believing this rumor is the political fallout if a German national was discovered to have flown over Yugoslavia would be unworth it. The 9th FS trains for duty in Europe whiile the 8th FS trains for duty in the Far East. It would only make sense a German pilot would not be a member of the 9th in order to avoid any political issues. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:49:27 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: RE: Couple of things I've come across > Bandit 282 Sqdr. Leader Graham Wardell (RAF) December 1988 > Bandit 354 Sqdr. Leader Chris Topham (RAF) February 1991 > (Topham flew in the Gulf on triaining flights but when the > war broke out > he had to be sent back to the US and rushed thru a security clearance > procedure before flying missions over Iraq.) > > Bandit 436 Sqdr. Leader Ian Wood (RAF) > January 1994 > > My records indicate the first F-117 to ever fly in Britain > was in June of > 1996 when 4 pilots (one was Ian Wood) flew 2 F-117's there > for a series of > air shows. Officially you are correct, the first time the Nighthawk came to the UK was in 1996, however 'rumour' has it that part of its testing took place in northern Scotland (the same place the Aurora is rumoured to have gone to). There is currently an RAF Sqn. Ldr. on exchange who flies the F-117A. I'm not sure if he took part in Op. Allied Force recently though. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:12:26 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: Royal International Air Tattoo Review Just a quick review of what is meant to the be the world's largest military air show. B-2 Very impressive, first time its been on the static list here. A bit over the top on the security and paranoia if you ask me. Creaked and flexed more than a U-2 and B-52 put together when it finally taxied. Unofficial news that there are plans for more to be built. Politically motivated though...building more will secure jobs yielding a political bonus for someone. None of the crew would comment on the dependency of EA-6Bs on recent combat missions. They just said "it felt nice and cozy have them on each wingtip". U-2 Flew in from Sicily. The Dragon Lady is still going strong with more unofficial news that more are to be built and a 'T' model is forthcoming. "A lot" of the work done now is automated and relayed on, usually in real time (to Cobra Ball/Rivet Joints). Pilots said they get a lot of reading done these days once the autopilot/programmed sensors are active! The only threat they worry about is SA-12s but they're very few of them about apparently. B-52 3 here this year. Still going strong too. Plenty of upgrades on the cards to turn them away from being just a cruise missile platform and Generals were impressed with their dumb bomb accuracy over Kosovo. At the moment they're due to stay in service until 2030 or 2040 depending on which crew member you ask. Even if they're not sure of the year, they know they'll outlive both the B-1 and B-2. B-1B The only people who can say something positive about this beast are the actual crew. Work over Kosovo went well as far as they were concerned. General opinion from other bomb crews though is that its very expensive to fly and can still only drop one type bomb (Mk82) with any degree of success. More upgrades are being done however in a non-nuclear era things don't look good for a bomber designed primarily for nuclear strike that has very high operating costs. 10 to 20 years maximum at the moment. Other gossip Groom Lake is still used a lot and always turns the heads of U-2 crew when you mention it. Hope you read something interesting....! Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:37:45 PDT From: "MIDI MAN" Subject: Fwd: FW: Couple of things I've come across > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gavin Payne [SMTP:gavin.payne@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk] > > Sent: 27 July 1999 14:49 > > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > > Subject: RE: Couple of things I've come across > > > > > Bandit 282 Sqdr. Leader Graham Wardell (RAF) December 1988 > > > Bandit 354 Sqdr. Leader Chris Topham (RAF) February 1991 > > > (Topham flew in the Gulf on triaining flights but when the > > > war broke out > > > he had to be sent back to the US and rushed thru a security clearance > > > procedure before flying missions over Iraq.) > > > > > > Bandit 436 Sqdr. Leader Ian Wood (RAF) > > > January 1994 > > > > > > My records indicate the first F-117 to ever fly in Britain > > > was in June of > > > 1996 when 4 pilots (one was Ian Wood) flew 2 F-117's there > > > for a series of > > > air shows. > > > > > > Officially you are correct, the first time the Nighthawk came to the UK > > was > > in 1996, however 'rumour' has it that part of its testing took place in > > northern Scotland (the same place the Aurora is rumoured to have gone >to). > > > > There is currently an RAF Sqn. Ldr. on exchange who flies the F-117A. >I'm > > not sure if he took part in Op. Allied Force recently though. Correct - this pilot recently demonstrated the F-117a at the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford, UK on Saturday 24th July. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:49:06 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: OT: Other Mailing List Does anyone here know of any other military/aviation mailing lists? Please reply privately etc if you do. Thanks in advance. Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 01:56:44 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: German pilot in downed F-117A??? On 7/27/99 7:02AM, in message <3.0.1.32.19990727070205.0075b5c0@e-z.net>, patrick wrote: > > > Stefan I do not believe this rumor. Yes the RAF has a transfer pilot with > the F-117's and he did participate in the Gulf War. And yes the German AF > trains at the same airfield as the F-117's but.....the best reason for not > believing this rumor is the political fallout if a German national was > discovered to have flown over Yugoslavia would be unworth it. The 9th FS > trains for duty in Europe whiile the 8th FS trains for duty in the Far > East. It would only make sense a German pilot would not be a member of the > 9th in order to avoid any political issues. > > patrick While I'm not endorsing the rumor (I only reported it), I would advise against dismissing it out of hand. First, since the Kosovo debacle was sold as the forces of light heroically willing to take any risk (as long as they didn't descend below 15,000 feet) in the struggle against E-vil. If a German pilot was found to be part of the noble forces striking a blow for Good, beyond the short term this would prove to be an annoyance at worst. The US would show how all sins are forgiven, and we now so trust our German allies that we are willing to let them fly one of our silver bullets. Except for the usual suspects, the Germans probably would have loved it, and most of the rest of NATO would have been jealous. Of course, all bets would have been off if Germany wasn't already part of the NATO Air Circus using its full might over 2-3 months to kill seven tanks. Second, if (and I say IF), such a pilot was participating in US operations, what better plane to be in than the F-117, the one plane we were sure wouldn't get shot down? Again, not endorsing the rumor, just commenting. Art ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:59:06 -0700 From: patrick Subject: RE: Couple of things I've come across At 02:49 PM 7/27/99 +0100, Gavin wrote: >Officially you are correct, the first time the Nighthawk came to the UK was >in 1996, however 'rumour' has it that part of its testing took place in >northern Scotland (the same place the Aurora is rumoured to have gone to). > I would consider this to be a totally baseless rumor. It can be added to the list of F-117 folklore however. No one has seems to be able to produce a shred of evidence nor any sensible logic as to why the USAF would abandon the dry clear climes of the desert Southwest and go to the added expense of testing in a far off environment that is unfriendly in climate to the F-117. What would be the point? patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 02:40:27 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: Royal International Air Tattoo Review On 7/27/99 7:12AM, in message <000801bed83a$4f5c62b0$0200a8c0@cleancrunch.demon.co.uk>, "Gavin Payne" wrote: > Just a quick review of what is meant to the be the world's largest military > air show. > > B-2 > Unofficial news > that there are plans for more to be built. Politically motivated > though...building more will secure jobs yielding a political bonus for > someone. Has been proposed, but not likely. Some tooling has already been destroyed and while AF would like, there is No sympathy in Congress for this right now, even though B-2s would be cheaper. Regarding jobs issue, Dems feel they have California in the bag already and see no need to buy votes this way (most jobs would show up until after election, anyway) > > U-2 > Flew in from Sicily. The Dragon Lady is still going strong with more > unofficial news that more are to be built and a 'T' model is forthcoming. A request has gone to Lockheed for a price for 14 more > The only > threat they worry about is SA-12s but they're very few of them about > apparently. S-300 PMUs, which Russia will sell to anyone, could also be a bother, as could certain fighters As wonderful as the U-2 is, it's a fact that we won't fly it over defended airspace. > > B-52 > 3 here this year. Still going strong too. Plenty of upgrades on the cards > to turn them away from being just a cruise missile platform and Generals > were impressed with their dumb bomb accuracy over Kosovo. At the moment > they're due to stay in service until 2030 or 2040 depending on which crew > member you ask. Even if they're not sure of the year, they know they'll > outlive both the B-1 and B-2. > I just keeps going, and going, and going. We don't fly it over defended airspace either, though. > B-1B > The only people who can say something positive about this beast are the > actual crew. Work over Kosovo went well as far as they were concerned. > General opinion from other bomb crews though is that its very expensive to > fly and can still only drop one type bomb (Mk82) with any degree of success. This plane gets no respect. virtually all conventional enhancements have been blocked or postponed. > More upgrades are being done however in a non-nuclear era things don't look > good for a bomber designed primarily for nuclear strike that has very high > operating costs. 10 to 20 years maximum at the moment. They can't even get money to put LANTIRN on it. It probably does not cost as much as the B-2 to operate, but who knows since those figures are close held. Some of the reasons for denying the B-1 capability enhancements are to make other planes look good and to help justify developing a new strike aircraft for USAF in about 10 years (What USAF wants is a "BF-22", to go with their "EF-22" and possibly their "RF-22"). Art > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:19:23 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: RE: Couple of things I've come across Patrick writes: >At 02:49 PM 7/27/99 +0100, Gavin wrote: > >>Officially you are correct, the first time the Nighthawk came to the UK was >>in 1996, however 'rumour' has it that part of its testing took place in >>northern Scotland (the same place the Aurora is rumoured to have gone to). >> > >I would consider this to be a totally baseless rumor. It can be added to >the list of F-117 folklore however. No one has seems to be able to produce >a shred of evidence nor any sensible logic as to why the USAF would abandon >the dry clear climes of the desert Southwest and go to the added expense of >testing in a far off environment that is unfriendly in climate to the >F-117. What would be the point? Perhaps because the DoD didn't envisage using the F-117 or its LGBs in CONUS ? With the 4450th being declared operational in late '83, it's perfectly feasible that an F-117 would have been brought to Europe to undergo flight testing in weather conditions similar to those it might be expected to encounter operationally. I'm not making a case for or against its coming to the UK before '96, simply answering your question wrt the point of such a move. The earliest I've ever heard a connection with Machrihanish and the F-117 is '86, by which time the a/c had been in service for several years. The base was then operational, highly secure, and the most remote in the UK. D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 04:05:44 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: RE: Couple of things I've come across At 08:19 AM 7/28/99, you wrote: >Patrick writes: > >>At 02:49 PM 7/27/99 +0100, Gavin wrote: >> >>>Officially you are correct, the first time the Nighthawk came to the UK was >>>in 1996, however 'rumour' has it that part of its testing took place in >>>northern Scotland (the same place the Aurora is rumoured to have gone to). >>> >> >>I would consider this to be a totally baseless rumor. It can be added to >>the list of F-117 folklore however. No one has seems to be able to produce >>a shred of evidence nor any sensible logic as to why the USAF would abandon >>the dry clear climes of the desert Southwest and go to the added expense of >>testing in a far off environment that is unfriendly in climate to the >>F-117. What would be the point? > >Perhaps because the DoD didn't envisage using the F-117 or its LGBs in >CONUS ? > >With the 4450th being declared operational in late '83, it's >perfectly feasible that an F-117 would have been brought to Europe to >undergo flight testing in weather conditions similar to those it might be >expected to encounter operationally. > =-===-=-=-=-== The F-117 is not an all weather aircraft. The plane does not come out of the hanger when the weather is inclement. In fact I have seen training missions cancelled and all plames returned to base when a sudden rain storm threatens Holloman AFB. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:22:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stan Brown" Subject: Re: Royal International Air Tattoo Review >> More upgrades are being done however in a non-nuclear era things don't look >> good for a bomber designed primarily for nuclear strike that has very high >> operating costs. 10 to 20 years maximum at the moment. > > They can't even get money to put LANTIRN on it. It probably does not cost as >much as the B-2 to operate, but who knows since those figures are close held. >Some of the reasons for denying the B-1 capability enhancements are to make other >planes look good and to help justify developing a new strike aircraft for USAF in >about 10 years (What USAF wants is a "BF-22", to go with their "EF-22" and >possibly their "RF-22"). > Tha;s pretty strange, now that they are not going to get the F-22 :-( - -- Stan Brown stanb@netcom.com 843-745-3154 Westvaco Charleston SC. - -- Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. - - (c) 1999 Stan Brown. Redistribution via the Microsoft Network is prohibited. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:26:19 PDT From: "wayne binkley" Subject: RE: Couple of things I've come across at 18:59 7/27/99 patrick wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for what its worth, i agree.consider the following.during WW11 southern england was awash with airbases.there was no room left for pilot training.so they did it in scotland.the weather was so bad and the terrain so hostile,they were losing more pilots in training than combat!so the USA offered to train some of them here.as most of their planes were US made,this meant we did not have to fly them across the atlantic so the "brits"could crack them up.end result?more pilots,more planes for combat. wayne d.binkley _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:19:28 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: RE: Royal International Air Tattoo Review > -----Original Message----- > > U-2 > > S-300 PMUs, which Russia will sell to anyone, could also > be a bother, as > could certain fighters As wonderful as the U-2 is, it's a > fact that we won't fly > it over defended airspace. A few years ago it was flying skyhigh over Iraq. They said they'd shoot it down, then had to admit they tried but couldn't. You're right though, these days it doesn't need to overfly, the sensors are so good they don't need to. > > > > > B-52 > > 3 here this year. Still going strong too. Plenty of > upgrades on the cards > > to turn them away from being just a cruise missile platform > and Generals > > were impressed with their dumb bomb accuracy over Kosovo. > At the moment > > they're due to stay in service until 2030 or 2040 depending > on which crew > > member you ask. Even if they're not sure of the year, they > know they'll > > outlive both the B-1 and B-2. > > > > > I just keeps going, and going, and going. We don't fly > it over defended > airspace either, though. The B-52 did go over Kosovo (mid 20s altitude) emptying its load of Mk82s " to within 250 feet". Not sure if we had control of the sky though. > Some of the reasons for denying the B-1 capability > enhancements are to make other > planes look good and to help justify developing a new strike > aircraft for USAF in > about 10 years (What USAF wants is a "BF-22", to go with > their "EF-22" and possibly their "RF-22"). Sounds like whats going to happen doesn't it. Anyone know the range of a combat laden F-22? Gavin ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #85 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". 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