From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #105 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Thursday, September 16 1999 Volume 08 : Number 105 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: Off-Topic Request RB-36 Re: SR-71 (968) F-117A Website!!! (NEW URL) F-22 canopy..... Re: F-22 canopy..... Re: Let's Just All Get Along.... Guess what may fly at the Edwards Open House? Re: SR-71 (968) RE: Off-Topic Request History channel programs Aviation Search Engine Australian Scramjet Research AW&ST: U2 & UAV Sensors "Shortage of airborne intelligence..." - NO Kidding !!! [SR-71 bring it back] testing - disregard F-117 shootdown Re: Australian Scramjet Research Northrop-Grumman Unveils New Strike Aircraft Concepts Re: Australian Scramjet Research *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:48:11 -0700 From: Erik Hoel Subject: RE: Off-Topic Request Robert Hopkins wrote: > I received an e-mail that has, frankly, left me skeptical: Some > RB-36s Peacemakers were painted all black with red tail codes, and > operated from North Africa on missions along the Turkish-Soviet > border. During these missions, the RB-36s purportedly overflew the > USSR, and may have tangled with MiGs. I have found absolutely no > evidence to corroborate this claim of unique paint scheme or > overflight in any of the documentation I have uncovered from the Air > Force overflight programs. I just happened to be reading the new book on the B-36 entitled "Convair B-36" by Meyers Jacobsen (large format, thick/huge book, stuffed with pictures). Despite not having an index, I was able to find some information related to this question. In one of the chapters detailing Soviet responses to the B-36, Bill Van Orman (a B-36 tail gunner) detailed a 1956 "border skirting mission". He states: "We flew along the Turkish-Russian border for well over 100 miles. I do not know if we intruded on Russian airspace. I do know that we were very close. This was in effect a 'thumb your nose at them' mission. I could see MiGs trying to get up to us, both on radar and visually out of the blisters. They could not reach us." This was from a letter dated 8/31/96 to Chuck Hansen. Given that some of the superfeatherweight B-36s (e.g., 50-1086) reportedly got up to 59,000, and given the ceilings of the various MiGs of that era (MiG-15bis 51,500; MiG-17 54,450; MiG-19 57,550), this type of mission appears doable, though quite risky. Apparently, the B-36s out of Ramey AFB in Puerto Rico often flew through the Med to Turkey, often landing in either North Africa or Adona, Turkey. Regarding the unique paint scheme, I have not yet come across anything like it. Erik - -- Erik Hoel mailto:ehoel@esri.com Environmental Systems Research Institute http://www.esri.com 380 New York Street 909-793-2853 (x1-1548) tel Redlands, CA 92373-8100 909-307-3067 fax ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:20:57 EDT From: MSU94@aol.com Subject: RB-36 my grandfather flew RB-36s around Russia on elint flights out of Thule..I asked him if he ever overflew Soviet Union and he said no.. Which sounds reasonable to be, not because he was my grandfather, but that it was fairly vulnerable, and carried a lot of people on it (sometimes 3 crews, since some of the missions could be 20-40 hours). That would be a lot of people and information that could fall into enemy hands.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:28:10 EDT From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Re: SR-71 (968) SR-71A (61-7968) was towed to Edwards AFB South Base today (9 SEP 99). It will be dismantled, beginning next week, for transport to a museum. Peter Merlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: --TIGGER-- Subject: F-117A Website!!! (NEW URL) NEW URL !!!!!!!!! Allied Force Info !!!! Never before published Bandit #'s "The Best F-117A On The Web" F-117A: Aircraft Defense Information Center http://members.xoom.com/goatsucker _ _ _ \\ /_\ // \\ // \\ // \//___\\/ ______/ /|\ \______ /[[/[[/ / | \ \]]\]]\ __________________/[[/[[/ /..| .\ \]]\]]\__________________ - ------------------------------------------------------------- \_/|\_/ (_)|(_) / \ / \ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:09:15 -0400 From: John Stone Subject: F-22 canopy..... Hello, In the most recent Av Week, there is a lengthly article on F-22 testing at Edwards AFB. In all the pictures the F-22s all have a heavely tinted canopies. My question is this has got to be very hard to see at night, why are the canopies tinted? The F-16s have a gold look to them(already discussed on the list!) what gives? Thanks in advance. Best, John John Stone blackbirds@iname.com U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:24:07 -0400 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: F-22 canopy..... It is a stealth application. Jim Stevenson > Hello, > > In the most recent Av Week, there is a lengthly article on F-22 > testing at Edwards AFB. In all the pictures the F-22s all have a > heavely tinted canopies. My question is this has got to be very hard > to see at night, why are the canopies tinted? The F-16s have a gold > look to them(already discussed on the list!) what gives? > > Thanks in advance. > > Best, > > John > > John Stone > > blackbirds@iname.com > > U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 02:12:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Shafer Subject: Re: Let's Just All Get Along.... On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Andrew Morris wrote: > I manage 3 listservs, and periodically members get testy (gee does > that word come from Testosterone?). Probably not, but if it does, remember that women produce testosterone and other androsterols, too, albeit in smaller amounts than do men. I'm a staunch feminist and I refuse to lay all the blame for such situations on men. Testiness is not restricted to those with Y chromosomes and any claim for male-female equality must acknowledge that women can be just as jerky as men (although we usually call it by different names, but the result is the same). We demand that our testiness be recognized equally! Women can be jerks, too! No free passes for the Y-chromosome deficient! I point this out because I know that I have sent a testy message or two to Skunk-Works and I don't want anyone to think that I'm going to hide behind the "testosterone made me do it" excuse. Of course, the "UFO messages made me do it" and the "aliens are here made me do it" excuses are still viable, but I'm not Little Goody Two-Shoes and can only promise to try not to go ballistic unnecessarily. As proof, I apologize for the testy remark about SR-71 rudders not being vertical stabilizers and my sneering remark that anyone who could call the rudders stabilizers was uninformed and admit that the remark was poorly phrased. I think it's the weather, personally, and the onset of fall, heralding winter. Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com "Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end...." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 03:04:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Shafer Subject: Guess what may fly at the Edwards Open House? It's not certain, but it looks to be highly probable that Dryden will actually go along with the AFFTC request for a flight at their Open House. There may even be one flight each day (Saturday, 9 October, and Sunday, 10 October). This would be in addition to the last data flight, scheduled for 27 Sept, I believe. I got the word from a fellow engineer who got the word from Fast Eddie, so it's not just a rumor. There's even a good chance Ed will be the pilot for one flight, maybe both. I'll try to ask him in person next week, but he's kind of hard to track down now that he's the Acting Chief Pilot. Regards, Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com "Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end...." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 03:12:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mary Shafer Subject: Re: SR-71 (968) On Thu, 9 Sep 1999 Xelex@aol.com wrote: > SR-71A (61-7968) was towed to Edwards AFB South Base today (9 SEP 99). It > will be dismantled, beginning next week, for transport to a museum. They may have planned to tow it to South Base, but I'd swear it was still on the ramp at 1700 when I drove by it on my way home. I can't help but be sure I'd notice if it had been moved; I'm very observant and I always look for it and any F-22s that may be out. (I didn't go into work on Friday, 10 Sept, so it could well be gone by now, though.) I'm absolutely positive it was there at 1400. I wish they would tow it away because it looks so pitiful. Speaking of F-22s, that is a spin chute someone reported seeing. I got a pretty good look at it twice on Thursday and recognized it immediately. The plane wasn't in the hangar, which may be becaus of the live mortar shell. Mary Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer@ursa-major.spdcc.com "Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end...." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 08:34:17 -0500 From: "Robert S. Hopkins, III, PhD" Subject: RE: Off-Topic Request >I just happened to be reading the new book on the B-36 entitled "Convair >B-36" by Meyers Jacobsen (large format, thick/huge book, stuffed with >pictures). Despite not having an index, I was able to find some information >related to this question. In one of the chapters detailing Soviet responses >to the B-36, Bill Van Orman (a B-36 tail gunner) detailed a 1956 "border >skirting mission". He states: > >"We flew along the Turkish-Russian border for well over 100 miles. I do not >know if we intruded on Russian airspace. I do know that we were very close. >This was in effect a 'thumb your nose at them' mission. I could see MiGs >trying to get up to us, both on radar and visually out of the blisters. They >could not reach us." > >This was from a letter dated 8/31/96 to Chuck Hansen. > >Given that some of the superfeatherweight B-36s (e.g., 50-1086) reportedly >got up to 59,000, and given the ceilings of the various MiGs of that era >(MiG-15bis 51,500; MiG-17 54,450; MiG-19 57,550), this type of mission >appears doable, though quite risky. Apparently, the B-36s out of Ramey AFB >in Puerto Rico often flew through the Med to Turkey, often landing in either >North Africa or Adona, Turkey. > >Regarding the unique paint scheme, I have not yet come across anything like >it. Thanks! You've been a gold mine! DrBob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:48:29 -0500 From: "Tom C Robison" Subject: History channel programs Was watching the History Channel last night. They had two programs that should be of interest to you folks. The first was History Undercover, and was about spy flights near/over Russia and other communist countries in the late 50s/early 60s, and included details of the shootdown of C-130A-II 60528. This program is repeated at various times through the week. Check the listings at the site below. The second show is entitled Military Blunders. The first half was about the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and the 2nd half is about the Iranian Hostage rescue mission of 1980, which showed brief films of the tests of the rocket-propelled (and rocket-retarded) YMC-130H. http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/index.html Tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:31:45 -0500 From: "Tom C Robison" Subject: Aviation Search Engine From the Historic Wings Online Newsletter: MACHSEARCH.com - Aviation Search Engine MACHSeach.com, the aviation search engine of Historic Wings, has expanded rapidly. Hundreds of sites are already indexed, and those of you who are in the database will soon be receiving your codes to your very own search engine on the page. MACHSearch.com engine combines the best features of a Yahoo!-like category directory with the added bonus of a page-by-page search of content, as you would find at an AltaVista or Lycos. However, unlike these other search engines, MACHSearch.com is strictly limited to aviation and aerospace sites. Take a look and let us know your thoughts! http://www.machsearch.com/ And if you run a website, please be sure you get yourself listed! It is easy, just go to: http://www.machsearch.com/addasite.html The subheadings that are still in need of content include: - - Women and WASPs - - FBOs and Flight Training - - Ultralights and Microlights - - Aircraft Sales - - Veterans Reunions - - Flight Clubs - - Aviation Art - - Aviation for Kids - - Maintenance and a few others. You will already find extensive content in the Aviation Adventure section, Museums, History, Publications, Aerobatics and Air Shows.... In all, there are 51 categories listed. http://www.machsearch.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:30:13 -0700 From: Larry Smith Subject: Australian Scramjet Research Those of you who are fellow scramjet nuts, will want to check out this URL: http://www.spacer.com/ Look for the article entitled: "Australia Developing Scramjets". It is a story about the University of Queensland HyShot Program. This is significant as UQ has a big Shock Tunnel, it has a history of hypersonics/scramjet research as well as 'belief' in the concept, even when it wasn't popular - enough to drive its research forward, instead of stopping. If this project can establish a continuing effort at testing scramjets, as well as developing the CFD, they could be in the lead eventually. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:13:50 -0400 From: "Frank Markus" Subject: AW&ST: U2 & UAV Sensors This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BEFEF6.0AA29670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is an article on page 24 of the September 6 issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology that may be of interest. The headline is headlined ‘Gnat Exploits Advance SAR.’ The subject of the article is the Improved-Gant UAV by General Atomics (“the Central Atomics favorite unmanned aerial vehicle”) which has an improved synthetic aperture radar (SAR.) After discussing the capabilities of the new SAR (4”), the article mentions that the resolution of the J-STARS is about 12-14 feet. And continues “The latest model of the U-2, which keeps watch on North Korea, can produce a granularity of 1-3 ft.” The new SAR package weighs no more than 115 lb. They are trying to reduce the weight by another 15 pounds for the next version of the UAV which will be called the Prowler II UAV. The resolution of the new SAR is described as being able to “see details smaller than a baseball – including footprints in sort terrain like sand or dust – through the heaviest clouds or the darkest night.” “The radar’s imaging was designed to look as much like an optical system as possible. The system can detect very small changes in the scene between one pass and the next. Recently, the radar has been further refined to detect moving targets.” - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BEFEF6.0AA29670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is an article on page 24 of the September 6 issue of = Aviation Week and Space Technology that may be of interest.  The headline is  headlined ‘Gnat Exploits Advance = SAR.’

 

The subject of the article is the Improved-Gant UAV by General = Atomics (“the Central Atomics favorite unmanned aerial = vehicle”)  which has an improved = synthetic aperture radar (SAR.)   = After discussing the capabilities of the new SAR (4”), the article = mentions that the resolution of the J-STARS is about 12-14 feet.  And continues “The latest model of the U-2, = which keeps watch on North Korea, can produce a granularity of 1-3 ft.”   The new SAR package = weighs no more than 115 lb. They are trying to reduce the weight by another 15 = pounds for the next version of the UAV which will be called the Prowler II = UAV.

 

The resolution of the new SAR is described as being able to = “see details smaller than a baseball – including footprints in sort terrain = like sand or dust – through the heaviest clouds or the darkest = night.”

 

“The radar’s imaging was designed to look as much = like an optical system as possible.  The system = can detect very small changes in the scene between one pass and the next.  Recently, the radar has been = further refined to detect moving = targets.”

 

- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BEFEF6.0AA29670-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:51:47 -0400 From: "Martin Hurst" Subject: "Shortage of airborne intelligence..." - NO Kidding !!! [SR-71 bring it back] I don't have to be a 5 Star General to tell you that you still need the SR-71's because satellites can't give you all the recon you want and need !!! For a fraction of the cost. >AW&ST >Washington Outlook - Sept. 13, 1999 >http://www.awgnet.com/aviation/avi_wash.htm >Edited by James R. Asker > >FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES >The Kosovo "lessons learned" report will be briefed to Defense >Secretary William Cohen at the end of the month and a major focus will >be the shortage of airborne intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance >forces. Their modernization and utilization will be the subject of >fundamental changes, and one possibility is putting all small, heavily-used >units in a single numbered Air Force so battlefield commanders can >rationalize their use, says Deputy Defense Secretary John Hamre. >Currently, for example, only EC-130 Compass Call units are assigned to >jamming communications, yet the EC-130 Commando Solo can jam >them too. In addition, the Pentagon will start looking at new ways to do >crucial jobs, in particular whether to shift the EA-6B's tactical jamming >role to some other manned or unmanned aircraft. Speaking at an >airpower conference on Capitol Hill, Hamre predicted the Kosovo >findings will have more impact on the 2001 quadrennial defense review >than on next year's defense budget. Turning to the F-22's fiscal future, >Hamre portrayed the House crackdown on the program as standard >budget tactics with an added element of surprise, not a "death struggle" >between the Hill and the Pentagon. He stood four-square against >skipping the F-22 in favor of the Joint Strike Fighter, arguing it should be >easy to find the $300 billion needed for three new tactical fighter >programs within the $7 trillion in defense spending projected in the next >three decades. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:19:36 -0400 (EDT) From: David Allison Subject: testing - disregard Testing. Please disregard. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:34:40 -0700 From: David Lednicer Subject: F-117 shootdown I had an interesting experience yesterday in regard to the F-117 that was shot down over Yugoslavia/Serbia. I usually go down to the practice and qualifying sessions for the Reno Air Races. Several years ago, I was introduced to the Critical Mass team, but didn't end up getting involved with them. This year, a friend of mine, Dave Cornell, became their technical advisor, and Dave reintroduced me into the team and got my involved this year. Yesterday, working on the Sea Fury, I smashed my head on a gear door, and the "team mom" drove me down to the hospital, where I got three stitches in my scalp. On the drive down, we got into a conversation and I finally put 2 and 2 together. The pilot/owner of the airplane is Tom Dwelle, the "team mom" is Peggy Dwelle and the crew chief is Ken Dwelle. Ring any bells? Ken Dwelle was the name on the canopy rail of the F-117 shot down! Yes, it is the same Ken. Peggy confirmed that Ken had left the USAF several months before the Kosovo action started and it was someone else who was shot down. I asked her about the Luftwaffe pilot rumor, but she didn't think it was true. Ken is now a pilot for United on 737s. Funny thing is, I didn't think Ken was a day over 25, but Peggy told me that he is 32. I guess that is what old age does to me - everyone looks young. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (425) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (425) 746-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:10:45 From: win@writer.win-uk.net (David) Subject: Re: Australian Scramjet Research Larry writes: >Those of you who are fellow scramjet nuts, will want to >check out this URL: > >http://www.spacer.com/ > >Look for the article entitled: >"Australia Developing Scramjets". > >It is a story about the University of Queensland HyShot Program. > >This is significant as UQ has a big Shock Tunnel, it has a history >of hypersonics/scramjet research as well as 'belief' in the concept, >even when it wasn't popular - enough to drive its research forward, >instead of stopping. If this project can establish a continuing >effort at testing scramjets, as well as developing the CFD, they >could be in the lead eventually. Waving the Union Jack for a moment :) It's fantastic to see the UK's Defence Evaluation and Research Agency involved too. They've been doing work on the programme in their hypersonic wind tunnels. Tell me Larry, is it the fact that they'll be collecting real-world data on the thermodynamics of scramjet combustion and its net thrust whilst HyShot is in flight, then comparing those with T4 and CFD data that makes this programme a world's first ? Has anyone tested a free flying scramjet before ? Seem to recall the USSR did - not sure about the US or anyone else. Best Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:36:49 -0400 From: "Andrew Morris" Subject: Northrop-Grumman Unveils New Strike Aircraft Concepts Article and artist's concepts of supersonic and hypersonic aircraft they are considering..... From Defence Systems Daily: http://defence-data.com/current/page5260.htm Andy Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:35:00 -0700 From: Larry Smith Subject: Re: Australian Scramjet Research >>http://www.spacer.com/ >>Look for the article entitled: >>"Australia Developing Scramjets". David responds: >Tell me Larry, is it the fact that they'll be collecting real-world data on >the thermodynamics of scramjet combustion and its net thrust whilst HyShot >is in flight, then comparing those with T4 and CFD data that makes this >programme a world's first ? Not realy a world first in terms of flying one, but I would say that it could be considered a world first to have that kind of infrastructure AND BELIEF in the concept in one place, and not be directly associated with a specific government program. Although HyShot is one specific program, to fly a design that was proven successful in the T4 shock tunnel, the concept of having an established tradition and belief in scramjet (fostered by Professor Stalker who has been into scramjet for a long time), a number of students willing to study it (look at the number of grad. students), the CFD capability (they've been into scramjet for some time), plus the T4 shock tunnel to further test a paper design. Given the example of actually flying HyShot, if they used that technique in the future (developing their own sounding rocket program would be a big win), they could be the only place around that would be able to explore ideas in CFD, shock tunnel, and real flight experiments. Plus I believe that if you just fly, you discover 'stuff', you never would have from just a theoretical program. >Has anyone tested a free flying scramjet before ? Seem to recall the USSR >did - not sure about the US or anyone else. Yes, the Russians flew one in November 1991, and November 1992 (associated with the French as well). There was also supposedly a flight paid for by NASA in east Kazakhstan in March or so of this year as a preliminary proof of concept flight for X-43 (NOT of the X-43 design however - the Russian design was flown - CFD was to be verified which could then be extrapolated to X-43 CFD). There was also an aborted Marquardt attempt back in the late 60's, that few know about. Larry ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V8 #105 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner