From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V8 #113 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Tuesday, November 16 1999 Volume 08 : Number 113 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: skunk-works-digest V8 #112 [none] Re: Re: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" Sub Launched Fighter Big Brother/Sister Watching You RE: Sub Launched Fighter RE: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" Re: Re: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" No More Thunder Down Under RE: No More Thunder Down Under RE: No More Thunder Down Under Re: Big Brother/Sister Watching You *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:16:42 -0500 From: Don Hackett Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V8 #112 Funny, I never received #111. I archive every digest I receive, and that one's missing. I looked at the text of it on George's web site and see that it came out about a week ago. Anybody else not receive it? Don ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:11:10 -0000 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: [none] http://www.lmtas.com/FighterPrograms/UCAV/index.html Has anyone here seen anything else about this program? A submarine launched fighter...... Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:55:33 -0000 From: "David" Subject: Re: From: Gavin Payne > http://www.lmtas.com/FighterPrograms/UCAV/index.html > > Has anyone here seen anything else about this program? > A submarine launched fighter...... The Sunday Times in London ran an article about this programme on 19 Oct 1997 in the Innovation section which has more details, and we know the Skunk Works are also working on UCAVs. However...as you'd expect the SW are less forthcoming than LMTAS about their work :) Recovery method was a major research focus back then, and I doubt this has changed. Sounds perfectly do-able, and more flexible - not to say more cost effective than cruise missiles. Best David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:46:25 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: Re: > http://www.lmtas.com/FighterPrograms/UCAV/index.html > > Has anyone here seen anything else about this program? > A submarine launched fighter...... Interesting -- although the application is apparently for ground attack/SEAD rather than air-to-air combat; kind of like the "F"-117. Presumably the SSBN-launched version would be used as a beginning-of war silver bullet, because it's unlikely they could get more than a hundred or so UCAVs stuffed into the launch tubes. See http://www.afa.org/magazine/0399ucavs.html (Maybe we really should be looking for ship and submarine mockups on Groom Lake. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:07:48 -0500 From: John Stone Subject: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" Hello All, The Air Force Association. is asking for nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" (the SR-71) there are several ways to nominate the jet(SR-71) of your choice(hopefully the SR-71!), this is for their Aerospace Education Fund. 1. On the calendar donation card for those that receive the mailing from the Air Force Association. 2. Direct mail: Aerospace Education Foundation 1501 Lee Highway Arlington, VA 22209-1198 3.Telephone: 703-247-5800 4. E MAIL: AEFstaff@aef.org So please contact them and let them know you want the ?????? (hopefully the SR-71!) as the "Jet of the 20th Century". So please vote for the jet(THE SR-71) of your choice(the SR-71).... This message contains no subliminal info! Best, John John Stone blackbirds@iname.com U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:53:39 -0500 From: "Andrew Morris" Subject: Sub Launched Fighter Yes, look into the Imperial Japanese Navy, circa 1943. History is full of revolutionary marvels. ;^D Andy Morris - -----Original Message----- From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Gavin Payne Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 3:11 PM To: Skunk-Works (E-mail) Subject: http://www.lmtas.com/FighterPrograms/UCAV/index.html Has anyone here seen anything else about this program? A submarine launched fighter...... Gavin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:16:54 -0500 From: "Andrew Morris" Subject: Big Brother/Sister Watching You From Defense Systems Daily: Ya gotta wonder if they pick up on some of our discussions don't ya think? Andy Morris CIA, NSA and DoJ required to clarify use of Project Echelon 11 November 1999 The US House of Representatives has added to the Foreign Intelligence Authorisation Act for FY 2000, adopted today by the full House, that the National Security Agency (NSA) which manages Project Echelon, the CIA and the Department of Justice, will have 60 days to report to Congress on the legal standards they use on communications intercepts involving American citizens. The prime mover behind this is Bob Barr representing Georgia's seventh district. Barr, a former CIA official and United States Attorney, serves on the House Judiciary and Government Reform Committees. Government Reform Chairman Dan Burton has also committed to hold hearings on this matter. "If American intelligence agencies are intercepting, receiving or distributing communications involving our citizens without court orders, or legal authority, they are doing so outside the bounds of the Constitution. If Project Echelon exists as reported, all Americans who care about the integrity of our Constitution should be concerned," declared Barr. "Everyone who places a high value on our right to privacy should be encouraged the House of Representatives has today taken the first step toward requiring the Intelligence Community to prove adequate procedures are in place to protect that right," said Barr. "I strongly encourage the Intelligence Community to prepare this report using unclassified material whenever possible. As more and more Americans become concerned about threats to their privacy, the reassurances only a public report can provide are essential. Our intelligence agencies need public support to do their jobs effectively, and this amendment provides an important opportunity for them to boost that support by answering our questions honestly," Barr concluded. Recently in a speech given to the "Computers, Freedom and Privacy 1999" international conference in Washington, D.C., he called for congressional hearings into Project ECHELON, which began in the 1980s, and is controlled largely by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), in co-ordination with at least four other countries, including Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand. ECHELON consists of a global network of computers that automatically search through millions of intercepted for pre-programmed keywords or fax, telex and e-mail addresses. Every word of every message in the frequencies and channels selected at a station is automatically searched. The processors in the network are known as the ECHELON Dictionaries. ECHELON connects all these computers and allows the individual stations to function as distributed elements an integrated system. An ECHELON station's Dictionary contains not only its parent agency's chosen keywords, but also lists for each of the other four agencies in the UKUSA system [NSA, GCHQ, DSD, GCSB and CSE] A report issued in 1997 - Assessing the Technologies of Political Control - was commissioned by the Civil Liberties Committee of the European Parliament. It contains details of a network of American-controlled intelligence stations on British soil and around the world, that "routinely and indiscriminately" monitor countless phone, fax and email messages. It states: "Within Europe all email telephone and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency transferring all target information from the European mainland via the strategic hub of London then by satellite to Fort Meade in Maryland via the crucial hub at Menwith Hill in the North York moors in the UK." The report confirmed officially for the first time the existence of the secretive ECHELON system. SPECIFICS SEC. 309. REPORT ON LEGAL STANDARDS APPLIED FOR ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE. (a) Report.--Not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Director of Central Intelligence, the Director of the National Security Agency, and the Attorney General shall jointly prepare, and the Director of the National Security Agency shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees, a report in classified and unclassified form providing a detailed analysis of the legal standards employed by elements of the intelligence community in conducting signals intelligence activities, including electronic surveillance. (b) Matters Specifically Addressed.--The report shall specifically include a statement of each of the following legal standards: (1) The legal standards for interception of communications when such interception may result in the acquisition of information from a communication to or from United States persons. (2) The legal standards for intentional targeting of the communications to or from United States persons. (3) The legal standards for receipt from non-United States sources of information pertaining to communications to or from United States persons. (4) The legal standards for dissemination of information acquired through the interception of the communications to or from United States persons. (c) Definitions.--As used in this section: (1) The term ``intelligence community'' has the meaning given that term under section 3(4) of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 401a(4)). (2) The term ``United States persons'' has the meaning given that term under section 101(i) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801(i)). (3) The term ``appropriate congressional committees'' means the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:44:04 -0500 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: Sub Launched Fighter This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2F88.9625CF42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Didn't most of the big naval powers fool around with a submarine launched fighter in WWII? I seem to remember both US and Britain having these programs, although they were using a bi-plane type of thing, I think..... Doing something similar with UCAV's seems like a logical step forward! Greg W -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Morris [mailto:morris@admissions.buffalo.edu] Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 10:54 AM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Sub Launched Fighter Yes, look into the Imperial Japanese Navy, circa 1943. History is full of revolutionary marvels. ;^D Andy Morris - -----Original Message----- From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Gavin Payne Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 3:11 PM To: Skunk-Works (E-mail) Subject: http://www.lmtas.com/FighterPrograms/UCAV/index.html Has anyone here seen anything else about this program? A submarine launched fighter...... Gavin - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2F88.9625CF42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Sub Launched Fighter

Didn't most of the big naval powers fool around with = a submarine launched fighter in WWII?  I seem to remember both US = and Britain having these programs, although they were using a bi-plane = type of thing, I think.....

Doing something similar with UCAV's seems like a = logical step forward!

Greg W

 -----Original Message-----
From:   Andrew Morris [mailto:morris@admissions.b= uffalo.edu]
Sent:   Monday, November 15, 1999 10:54 = AM
To:     = skunk-works@netwrx1.com
Subject:        = Sub Launched Fighter

Yes, look into the Imperial Japanese Navy, circa = 1943.

History is full of revolutionary marvels.

;^D Andy Morris

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com
[mailto:owner-skunk-works@n= etwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Gavin Payne
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 3:11 PM
To: Skunk-Works (E-mail)
Subject:


http://www.lmtas.com/FighterPrograms/UCAV/index.html

Has anyone here seen anything else about this = program?
A submarine launched fighter......

Gavin

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2F88.9625CF42-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:47:44 -0500 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2F89.1A3F19D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subtlety has never been your forte, has it John? For myself, I totally agree, the SR-71 has GOT to be the jet of the 20th century! Can't picture anything else getting that title! Greg W. -----Original Message----- From: John Stone [mailto:blackbirds@iname.com] Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 9:08 AM To: Skunk Works Subject: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" Hello All, The Air Force Association. is asking for nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" (the SR-71) there are several ways to nominate the jet(SR-71) of your choice(hopefully the SR-71!), this is for their Aerospace Education Fund. 1. On the calendar donation card for those that receive the mailing from the Air Force Association. 2. Direct mail: Aerospace Education Foundation 1501 Lee Highway Arlington, VA 22209-1198 3.Telephone: 703-247-5800 4. E MAIL: AEFstaff@aef.org So please contact them and let them know you want the ?????? (hopefully the SR-71!) as the "Jet of the 20th Century". So please vote for the jet(THE SR-71) of your choice(the SR-71).... This message contains no subliminal info! Best, John John Stone blackbirds@iname.com U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2F89.1A3F19D2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th = Century"

Subtlety has never been your forte, has it = John?    <grin>

For myself, I totally agree, the SR-71 has GOT to be = the jet of the 20th century!   Can't picture anything else = getting that title!

Greg W.
 -----Original Message-----
From:   John Stone [mailto:blackbirds@iname.com] =
Sent:   Monday, November 15, 1999 9:08 = AM
To:     Skunk Works
Subject:        = Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century"

Hello All,

The Air Force Association. is asking for nominations = for the "Jet of
the 20th Century" (the SR-71) there are several = ways to nominate the
jet(SR-71) of your choice(hopefully the SR-71!), = this is for their
Aerospace Education Fund.


1. On the calendar donation card for those that = receive the mailing
from the Air Force Association.

2. Direct mail:
Aerospace Education Foundation
1501 Lee Highway
Arlington, VA 22209-1198

3.Telephone: 703-247-5800

4. E MAIL: AEFstaff@aef.org

So please contact them and let them know you want the = ??????
(hopefully the SR-71!) as the "Jet of the 20th = Century".

So please vote for the jet(THE SR-71) of your = choice(the SR-71)....

This message contains no subliminal info!

Best,

John

John Stone

blackbirds@iname.com

U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2F89.1A3F19D2-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:36:56 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: on 11/15/99 8:46 AM, Allen Thomson at thomsona@flash.net wrote: >> Has anyone here seen anything else about this program? >> A submarine launched fighter...... Ed Heinemann, designer of the A-4 Skyhawk, designed a submarine-launched airplane in the late 1940s. It was designed to fit into an angled tube that sat on the deck of the sub. The wings were folded a la a WWII fighter, such as the F6F. The airplane had the form of the A-4 and was designed to perform a one-way nuclear attack mission. Jim Stevenson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:38:50 -0500 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Re: Nominations for the "Jet of the 20th Century" on 11/15/99 9:07 AM, John Stone at blackbirds@iname.com wrote: > Hello All, > > The Air Force Association. is asking for nominations for the "Jet of > the 20th Century" (the SR-71) there are several ways to nominate the > jet(SR-71) of your choice(hopefully the SR-71!), this is for their > Aerospace Education Fund. > > > 1. On the calendar donation card for those that receive the mailing > from the Air Force Association. > > 2. Direct mail: > Aerospace Education Foundation > 1501 Lee Highway > Arlington, VA 22209-1198 > > 3.Telephone: 703-247-5800 > > 4. E MAIL: AEFstaff@aef.org > > So please contact them and let them know you want the ?????? > (hopefully the SR-71!) as the "Jet of the 20th Century". > > So please vote for the jet(THE SR-71) of your choice(the SR-71).... > > This message contains no subliminal info! > > Best, > > John > > John Stone > > blackbirds@iname.com > > U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.thepoint.net/~jstone/blackbird.html > Do they have any criteria for making the nomination? Jim Stevenson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:02:26 +1030 From: Dennis Lapcewich Subject: No More Thunder Down Under Folks, The list appears quiet and these all are timely aircraft stories so I beg forgiveness that I am straddling the list charter line. * Two of the last four active duty RAAF DC3s (yes, I did say "active duty DC3s"!) left Edinburgh RAAF base north of Adelaide yesterday, bound for air museums in Sydney and Point Cook. Of the two remaining, one is unable to fly and the other is being put up for public tender, but requires about AUS$100,000 to make it airworthy. According to the TV report, each has logged some 4 million kilometers flight time. (As a sidebar to the story, the first military DC3s were borrowed from Australian National Airways in the 1930s because the RAAF didn't have any.) The news story did not provide a contact number if anyone wanted to purchase the remaining DC3, but I bet if you go to http://dove.mtx.net.au/~hqmpg/304abw.htm and search you might find a contact link if you know someone who might want to preserve it. * As the DC3s left Edinburgh RAAF yesterday, two Korean war-era MIG fighters arrived at Adelaide Int'l airport. They are owned by someone in Sydney and will be here probably through the weekend. I suspect they are here so those with some spare cash can take a flight or two aboard them as I remember reading an advertisement in the local paper last weekend. No further info was provided as this was a tag to the above TV news story. They did have some great video shots (ground and helicopter) of the MIGs taxiing behind a Qantas 747 that had just landed before them. * Speaking of, the Thailand government yesterday officially turned over the investigation to the Australian equivalent of the American NTSB of the Qantas 747-400 that had an "incident" landing in Bangkok in September. All the news here is downplaying the "incident" but they do mention that the Thai investigation revealed weather and mechanical failure has been ruled out (see http://news.com.au/news_content/national_content/4334046.htm ). However, a detailed article in last Saturday's "Weekend Australian" newspaper (there is no URL) reveals the aircraft was some 50 feet higher than normal as it crossed the runway threshold. The article further states the copilot called for a go-round at 30 feet from the deck (realizing they wouldn't make it) and powered up the engines. At this point the captain overrode the order and proceeded to land the aircraft. When the aircraft touched down there was insufficient room to stop, even under normal conditions, and the airport was in the middle of a tropical rainstorm. The aircraft was moving at between 155 and 165 knots at touchdown and was still travelling in excess of 100 knots when it overshot the runway. It stopped some 200m from the runway on the Royal Thai Air Force golf course. (I have no info if anyone was putting at the time it stopped on the green!) Blackbox and eyewitness evidence "suggests" the spoilers were never deployed on touchdown, the reverse thrusters were never deployed (in fact, the engines throttled up after touchdown!), and the normal flaps designation for Qantas 747-400s, "flaps 25," never took place. The aircraft fishtailed wildly as it is believed the anti-skid brakes failed and the plane hydro-planed. The entire undercarriage was ripped off, one engine was ripped off the wing and two more were destroyed. If you see photos of the "incident" they are all taken from the left side of the aircraft and at a great distance. However, passenger photos of the right side and interior show massive damage that Qantas is desperately trying to hide. Because the aircraft did not sustain what Qantas calls a "hull loss" and to preserve its reputation, the airline will spend whatever it takes to get it airworthy. Estimates range around the AUS$100 million mark in damages. However, the article does state that this "incident" meets the legal definition for "accident," something that Qantas spin doctors are working overtime to deny. (As an aside, one passenger of this accident went on to England as planned, only to be involved in the English rail disaster two weeks later! He survived both with minor cuts and bruises! Considering he was forced to remain seated, along with all the other passengers, in the Qantas jet for some 30 minutes after "landing," I think he is more than lucky!) * Finally, the last episode (rerun) of the BBC/Discovery Channel series "Decisive Weapons" aired last night on SBS, one of the two government public TV networks. The episode was all about the F117, concentrating on it's action during the Gulf War. When I was home in the States last July/August for a short visit, I spent a lunch at White Sands NM among the sand dunes and watched six F117s play games overhead. All I can say is all I get are TV programs and photos; you folks get up close and personal! I'm jealous! Ok back to my sleep. Wake me up when indoor plumbing arrives here in Oz ... Dennis - -------------------------------------------------------- Dennis Lapcewich - Web Developer ITS Corporate Web Services University of South Australia Adelaide, Australia Dennis.Lapcewich@UniSA.edu.au www.unisa.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:04:34 -0800 From: Erik Hoel Subject: RE: No More Thunder Down Under Dennis (Dennis.Lapcewich@unisa.edu.au) writes: > However, a detailed article in last Saturday's "Weekend Australian" newspaper > (there is no URL) reveals the aircraft was some 50 feet higher than normal as > it crossed the runway threshold. The article further states the copilot called > for a go-round at 30 feet from the deck (realizing they wouldn't make it) and > powered up the engines. At this point the captain overrode the order and > proceeded to land the aircraft. When the aircraft touched down there was > insufficient room to stop, even under normal conditions, and the airport was > in the middle of a tropical rainstorm. The aircraft was moving at between 155 > and 165 knots at touchdown and was still travelling in excess of 100 knots when > it overshot the runway. It stopped some 200m from the runway on the Royal Thai > Air Force golf course. (I have no info if anyone was putting at the time it > stopped on the green!) Interesting. I am a little surprised that it could stop in only 200m from a speed of 100 knots (even on a golf course!). Is this really plausible? BTW - In all the disaster movies I watch, the 747 can skid for nearly 10 minutes ... Erik - -- Erik Hoel mailto:ehoel@esri.com Environmental Systems Research Institute http://www.esri.com 380 New York Street 909-793-2853 (x1-1548) tel Redlands, CA 92373-8100 909-307-3067 fax ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:12:18 +1030 From: Dennis Lapcewich Subject: RE: No More Thunder Down Under > Interesting. I am a little surprised that it could stop in > only 200m from a > speed of 100 knots (even on a golf course!). Is this really plausible? > > BTW - In all the disaster movies I watch, the 747 can skid > for nearly 10 > minutes ... > Erik, From the early videos taken just after the crash -- good luck trying to find any now! -- the undercarriage literally dug into the soft earth at the end of the runway similar to plowing a field with an old horse plow. My uneducated guess is it slowed the a/c sufficiently before breaking away. I still remember one comment made at the time that the passengers were very lucky the undercarriage held together as long as it did, and did not penetrate up into the a/c body -- suggestions of a potential center fuel tank rupture ...? :) Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:42:58 -0800 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: Big Brother/Sister Watching You >From Defense Systems Daily: > >Ya gotta wonder if they pick up on some of our discussions don't >ya think? > >Andy Morris > They certianly do, both officially and non-officially. It doesn't require much of anything to subscribe to the list, it's archived on the web & through ftp, and we do tend to discuss things that would interest AFOSI, etc. They don't need a system like Echelon to keep tabs on us skunkers :) As a side note, I find the recent interest in the "Echelon" capability interesting, as Bamford's "Puzzle Palace", the definitve work on the NSA, chronicled what we now know as "Echelon" more than 10 years ago. The only really new information I've seen in the recent press articles and investigations has been Internet related, and even that is mostly irrelevant. So they can tap the many terabytes going through MAE-East and -West every day- even with a pipelined supercomputer it would take them years to analyze it! BTW- Amazon has The Puzzle Palace- As does FatBrain- Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Have you exported RSA today? print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0