From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V9 #13 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Thursday, February 17 2000 Volume 09 : Number 013 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #10 Re: HAVE SLICK Re: Stealth blimp [was Re: FWD (SW/FT) B2 and YF22electrogravitics] Re: HAVE SLICK Re: Stealth blimp [was Re: FWD (SW/FT) B2 andYF22electrogravitics] Re: Stealth blimp [was Re: FWD (SW/FT) B2 andYF22electrogravitics] High-altitude airship concept design nears completion at Lockheed Martin RE: High-altitude airship concept design nears completion at Lock heed Martin *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Feb 100 04:22:51 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #10 The Typhoon seems to be getting a bum rap. No it's not as stealthy as an F-22, but neither is any other fighter. On the other hand, it has a much greater attack capability and is more heavily armed. It makes greater use of voice technology and while its radar may not match the APG-77 (and Typhoon's antenna needs to be replaced), it has IRST and the F-22 does not. It carries a better dogfight missile than the F-22. If USAF succeeds in slowing development of long range/improved terminal performance medium range missiles on this side of the pothennd, tehn the F-22 will really need its stealth because it will be outgunned throughout the spectrum (maybe they'll have to deploy that ramjet AMARANTH they've been trying to bury for the last ten years). I'm not aware that the AIM-120C is all that stealth, just that it has smaller fins, and that's so that they can carry six instead of four of them in the Raptor's bay. Regarding how slow Eurofighter development is, you think the F-22 is fast? By the time it enters service the development will have been going on for at least 20 years. Keep in mind that the demonstrators flew 10 years ago, and how many have we gotten flying since then? Three? One thing also to keep in mind is that there was a conscious decision not ot go for all-aspect stealth on the Eurofighter. There are advantages to stouch stealth, but there are problems as well. You really can't put a much longer or wider missile into the F-22, which imposes severe limits on how you can increase lethality. On the Typhoon, you just change the attachment points. Stealth frankly isn't as important to a fighter as it is to a strike aircraft. Don't get me wrong, the F-22 is a better fighter than the Typhoon. But the Typhoon isn't bad and it is more versatile. Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 100 04:57:05 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: HAVE SLICK On 2/15/00 8:37PM, in message , Dan Zinngrabe wrote: > And it looks like the HAVE SLICK series of programs bore some fruit: > > > Dan > > Must be really secret 'cause there's nothing there. Or, if the "SLICK" of the programs is Billy Jeff, maybe the records have been shredded. Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:00:22 EST From: MELUMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Stealth blimp [was Re: FWD (SW/FT) B2 and YF22electrogravitics] In a message dated 02/16/2000 9:01:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, quellish@gte.net writes: > The complex internal > structures required to maintain the structural integrity of the > dirigible's envelope would be difficult to conceal from radar and > other sensors This just in! "The EURODRIFTR" A recent sighting over the North Sea has shed new light on the rumored "Stealth Blimp" - a vehicle so cutting edge - so futuristic as to obsolete the most advanced of the Skunk Works stable of "uninhabited" aerial vehicles. The witness, a highly trained unidentified aerial object observer, claims the mystery ship flew over his shrimp boat only 17 and 1/2 feet above the top of his HF antenna and so slow and stealthy that he would have missed seeing it entirely if it hadn't been for the sound of "escaping steam". "I know that sounds like an anachronism" said the lone stealth sleuth who prefers to go by the name of Larry, "considering that the use of steam for propulsion was generally abandoned after the mid 1940s". "But I swear it sounded just like one of the early locomotive adiabatic expansion chambers being vented up the flue of a six-drive-wheel coal burner pulling a mile long chain of boxcars over the continental divide." Expert stealth watchers on the Skunk Works list doubt the feasibility of a steam powered blimp. That doesn't faze Larry, who knows what he saw wasn't powered by electrogravitics. "It was powered by STEAM", he insists, even though he can't explain how a steam engine, which normally tips the scales at about 200 kilos per horsepower, could be the propulsion package on a lighter than air vehicle. We all hope Larry will post further details of his fascinating sighting soon. Another fine post from mel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:47:13 -0800 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: HAVE SLICK >On 2/15/00 8:37PM, in message , Dan >Zinngrabe wrote: > >> And it looks like the HAVE SLICK series of programs bore some fruit: >> >> >> Dan >> >> > > Must be really secret 'cause there's nothing there. Or, if the "SLICK" of >the programs is Billy Jeff, maybe the records have been shredded. > > Art Your browser probably missed the double underscore at the end of the URL. Blame IBM's patent server. Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ The software you were born with helps you follow thousands of different threads on the Internet, whip up gourmet feasts using only ingredients from the 24-hour store, and use words like "paradigm" and "orthogonal" in casual conversation. It deserves the operating system designed to work with it: the MacOS. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:07:18 -0800 From: Timothy Toth Subject: Re: Stealth blimp [was Re: FWD (SW/FT) B2 andYF22electrogravitics] Dan Zinngrabe wrote: > Well, no. Nothing with reduced RCS is "easy". Shape has always been the determining factor in an > aircraft's stealthiness- Even tiny deviances from the designed shape can drastically compromise the > RCS ... A blimp, on the other hand, is a big bag of gas. Gas, of course, doesn't like to hold it's > shape very well. Maintaining a stealthy shape with a blimp would be extremely difficult. At that > point you'd really be looking at using a dirigible, not a blimp. First of all I have to admit my ignorance as to the difference between a blimp and a dirigible (english is not my first language). Secondly what of a RAS (radar absorbant structure) as used on stealth aircraft, but with a radar transparent material as the 'bag' of gas . Of course if as you mention all materials in use today are reflective then a breakthrough would be needed, unless there is an active system on that too :-). Did you have a look at http://defence-data.com/current/page6495.htm This would seem to be a good candidate for LO measures (with transparent material or active system). > The US routinely looks both up and down with fairly sensitive IR sensors, as do a number of other > countries - > the blimp would stand out at any altitude due to the heat capacity of the lifting gas. The > temperature of the craft will *always* be significantly different than the surrounding environment - > even with miracle insulation. I realise you have made some pretty good points there, and I'm only playing the devil's advocate (as they say in French). But what of this coating or paint that is suposed to 'shift' IR radiation into frequencies that are much more absorbed by the athmosphere. (I really have to find that article again :-( ) > And why would you want a blimp, anyway? What role is it fufilling? Is it a role that a more > conventional aircraft (that has established ground support facilities, crews, etc.) could fufill? > Dan The main interest would be very long endurance surveillance/reconnaissance. We are talking of 30 days instead of max 30hrs (TIER III UAV) on station. This means it makes for easier and cheaper surveillance missions. They can be more effective because your are on station for the whole time (no transitionning from base to station and back). If you can make a survivable (stealth) dirigeable or stealth, you could have one on station over a theater of operation instead of 3-4 aircraft/UAVs for the same mission(or even more if time on station is reduced). If you have several potential areas of 'interest' (Kosovo/ Irak/ North Korea etc...) It gets more interesting. Timothy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:37:56 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: Stealth blimp [was Re: FWD (SW/FT) B2 andYF22electrogravitics] > Dan Zinngrabe wrote: > > > Well, no. Nothing with reduced RCS is "easy". Shape has always been the determining factor in an > > aircraft's stealthiness- Even tiny deviances from the designed shape can drastically compromise the > > RCS ... A blimp, on the other hand, is a big bag of gas. Gas, of course, doesn't like to hold it's > > shape very well. Maintaining a stealthy shape with a blimp would be extremely difficult. At that > > point you'd really be looking at using a dirigible, not a blimp. > > First of all I have to admit my ignorance as to the difference between a blimp and a dirigible There are three basic types of dirigibles, rigid, semi-rigid and non-rigid. Rigid dirigibles have a rigid frame, a well defined solid structure which encloses the bags containing the gas used to provide lift. The most famous rigid dirigibles were made by the Zeppelin company of Germany. Semi-rigid dirigibles have a flexible frame in place to provide structural integrity to parts of the airship that require structural strength such as the noze and tail of the ship, so that the craft will retain its shape and thus its aerodynamic properties in flight. Non-rigid dirigibles are bags of gas with very few if any structural elements. Non-rigid dirigibles cannot achieve high airspeeds as they are deformed by air pressure against the ship as they float in the sky. In general, blimps are borderline semi-rigid dirigibles (they are almost non-rigid). The feasibility and value of a stealth blimp is very questionable. One could presumably be constructed of composite materials thus decreasing its RCS however it would be a lumbering giant in the sky and would remain very vulnerable to attack. The engines alone would produce an obvious radar return and would tip off the country being spied on. Blimps are also incapable of operating in all weather conditions and a minor storm could easily destroy the craft. Blimps are also not designed for high-altitude operations and thus would be of little value since they could only cover a small area and would be well within range of even the most basic AAA systems. Those a just a few reasons why a stealth blimp wouldn't work. Sam > (english is not my first language). Secondly what of a RAS (radar absorbant structure) as used on > stealth aircraft, but with a radar transparent material as the 'bag' of gas . Of course if as you > mention all materials in use today are reflective then a breakthrough would be needed, unless there is > an active system on that too :-). > > Did you have a look at http://defence-data.com/current/page6495.htm > This would seem to be a good candidate for LO measures (with transparent material or active system). > > > The US routinely looks both up and down with fairly sensitive IR sensors, as do a number of other > > countries - > > the blimp would stand out at any altitude due to the heat capacity of the lifting gas. The > > temperature of the craft will *always* be significantly different than the surrounding environment - > > even with miracle insulation. > > I realise you have made some pretty good points there, and I'm only playing the devil's advocate (as > they say in French). But what of this coating or paint that is suposed to 'shift' IR radiation into > frequencies that are much more absorbed by the athmosphere. (I really have to find that article again > :-( ) > > > And why would you want a blimp, anyway? What role is it fufilling? Is it a role that a more > > conventional aircraft (that has established ground support facilities, crews, etc.) could fufill? > > Dan > > The main interest would be very long endurance surveillance/reconnaissance. We are talking of 30 days > instead of max 30hrs (TIER III UAV) on station. This means it makes for easier and cheaper > surveillance missions. They can be more effective because your are on station for the whole time (no > transitionning from base to station and back). If you can make a survivable (stealth) dirigeable or > stealth, you could have one on station over a theater of operation instead of 3-4 aircraft/UAVs for > the same mission(or even more if time on station is reduced). If you have several potential areas of > 'interest' (Kosovo/ Irak/ North Korea etc...) It gets more interesting. > > Timothy > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:56:21 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: High-altitude airship concept design nears completion at Lockheed Martin 16 February 2000 Lockheed Martin and its partners have developed an unmanned lighter-than-air vehicle that would operate above the jet stream and above severe weather in a geostationary position to serve as a telecommunications relay, a weather observer, or a peacekeeper from its over-the-horizon perch. [lmblimp.jpg] ^^^^^ Artist's impression of a high-altitude airship Lighter-than-air vehicles operating at altitudes of 21 kilometres (70,000 feet) are nearing a reality thanks in large measure to the technical savvy of Lockheed Martin Naval Electronics & Surveillance Systems-Akron and the convictions of Stratcom President Lt. Gen. James A. Abrahamson, USAF (retired), and other members of its stratospheric airship industrial team. All vital technologies were evaluated individually during the recently concluded concept feasibility phase, which began in October 1998, and are ready for integration into a demonstration vehicle. "The evolution of the design over this period has illustrated a host of design, operational, and manufacturing issues that are significantly different than the issues resulting from development of fixed-wing aircraft or even a conventional LTA vehicle," Business Development Director Ron G. E. Browning said. "We have tackled and solved some of the more significant issues that deal with maintaining on-station position, and operation over very long times (months rather than days or hours). We are currently developing the operational procedures necessary in this upper atmospheric region," Browning said. Maintaining geostationary position over long periods requires a detailed understanding of the environment at 21 km. This altitude was chosen because of its minimal wind conditions during a significant part of the year. Wind profiles tend to reduce to a minimum a short distance above the jet stream. However, long-term, reliable and continuous data on winds and turbulence at this altitude are not available for the entire earth's surface. Therefore, variable winds and turbulence, even though the air density is only five percent of that at the surface, could still place severe demands on propulsion, control and navigation systems. Buoyant vehicles require periodic checks on the helium purity. This is done frequently with blimps. For the vehicle operating at 21 km, the design has taken into account leakage of helium as well as migration of air and water vapour into the helium enclosure. Degradation of buoyant lift will be minimised by envelope design. Since it is not practical to carry fuel aloft in a long-endurance buoyant vehicle, all power must be generated on station. This includes payload and propulsive power. A combination of photovoltaic (PV) and fuel cell systems likely will be used to provide the multiple kilowatts of power necessary for these functions. The PV and regenerative fuel cell technologies required by the vehicle are being developed based on work at NASA-Glenn in Cleveland and NASA-Dryden at Edwards AFB. REF XQQAS XQQTY Copyright(c) 1996 - 2000 Defence Data Ltd. All rights reserved. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:57:23 -0500 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: High-altitude airship concept design nears completion at Lock heed Martin This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7970.719C4CF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Is this from a periodical, newspaper, or what? - -----Original Message----- From: Terry W. Colvin [mailto:fortean1@frontiernet.net] Sent: February 17, 2000 10:56 AM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: High-altitude airship concept design nears completion at Lockheed Martin 16 February 2000 Lockheed Martin and its partners have developed an unmanned lighter-than-air vehicle that would operate above the jet stream and above severe weather in a geostationary position to serve as a telecommunications relay, a weather observer, or a peacekeeper from its over-the-horizon perch. [lmblimp.jpg] ^^^^^ Artist's impression of a high-altitude airship Lighter-than-air vehicles operating at altitudes of 21 kilometres (70,000 feet) are nearing a reality thanks in large measure to the technical savvy of Lockheed Martin Naval Electronics & Surveillance Systems-Akron and the convictions of Stratcom President Lt. Gen. James A. Abrahamson, USAF (retired), and other members of its stratospheric airship industrial team. All vital technologies were evaluated individually during the recently concluded concept feasibility phase, which began in October 1998, and are ready for integration into a demonstration vehicle. "The evolution of the design over this period has illustrated a host of design, operational, and manufacturing issues that are significantly different than the issues resulting from development of fixed-wing aircraft or even a conventional LTA vehicle," Business Development Director Ron G. E. Browning said. "We have tackled and solved some of the more significant issues that deal with maintaining on-station position, and operation over very long times (months rather than days or hours). We are currently developing the operational procedures necessary in this upper atmospheric region," Browning said. Maintaining geostationary position over long periods requires a detailed understanding of the environment at 21 km. This altitude was chosen because of its minimal wind conditions during a significant part of the year. Wind profiles tend to reduce to a minimum a short distance above the jet stream. However, long-term, reliable and continuous data on winds and turbulence at this altitude are not available for the entire earth's surface. Therefore, variable winds and turbulence, even though the air density is only five percent of that at the surface, could still place severe demands on propulsion, control and navigation systems. Buoyant vehicles require periodic checks on the helium purity. This is done frequently with blimps. For the vehicle operating at 21 km, the design has taken into account leakage of helium as well as migration of air and water vapour into the helium enclosure. Degradation of buoyant lift will be minimised by envelope design. Since it is not practical to carry fuel aloft in a long-endurance buoyant vehicle, all power must be generated on station. This includes payload and propulsive power. A combination of photovoltaic (PV) and fuel cell systems likely will be used to provide the multiple kilowatts of power necessary for these functions. The PV and regenerative fuel cell technologies required by the vehicle are being developed based on work at NASA-Glenn in Cleveland and NASA-Dryden at Edwards AFB. REF XQQAS XQQTY Copyright(c) 1996 - 2000 Defence Data Ltd. All rights reserved. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7970.719C4CF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: High-altitude airship concept design nears completion at = Lockheed Martin

Is this from a periodical, newspaper, or what?

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry W. Colvin [mailto:fortean1@frontiernet.net= ]
Sent: February 17, 2000 10:56 AM
To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com
Subject: High-altitude airship concept design nears = completion at
Lockheed Martin


       16 February = 2000

       Lockheed Martin = and its partners have developed an unmanned
       = lighter-than-air vehicle that would operate above the jet stream
       and above = severe weather in a geostationary position to serve as a
       = telecommunications relay, a weather observer, or a peacekeeper
       from its = over-the-horizon perch.

          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;        [lmblimp.jpg]
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;           = ^^^^^
          &nb= sp;    Artist's impression of a high-altitude = airship

       Lighter-than-air = vehicles operating at altitudes of 21 kilometres
       (70,000 feet) = are nearing a reality thanks in large measure to the
       technical savvy = of Lockheed Martin Naval Electronics &
       Surveillance = Systems-Akron and the convictions of Stratcom
       President Lt. = Gen. James A. Abrahamson, USAF (retired), and other
       members of its = stratospheric airship industrial team.
       All vital = technologies were evaluated individually during the
       recently = concluded concept feasibility phase, which began in
       October 1998, = and are ready for integration into a demonstration
       vehicle.
       "The = evolution of the design over this period has illustrated a
       host of design, = operational, and manufacturing issues that are
       significantly = different than the issues resulting from development
       of fixed-wing = aircraft or even a conventional LTA vehicle,"
       Business = Development Director Ron G. E. Browning said.
       "We have = tackled and solved some of the more significant issues
       that deal with = maintaining on-station position, and operation over
       very long times = (months rather than days or hours). We are
       currently = developing the operational procedures necessary in this
       upper = atmospheric region," Browning said.
       Maintaining = geostationary position over long periods requires a
       detailed = understanding of the environment at 21 km. This altitude
       was chosen = because of its minimal wind conditions during a
       significant = part of the year. Wind profiles tend to reduce to a
       minimum a short = distance above the jet stream. However, long-term,
       reliable and = continuous data on winds and turbulence at this
       altitude are = not available for the entire earth's surface.
       Therefore, = variable winds and turbulence, even though the air
       density is only = five percent of that at the surface, could still
       place severe = demands on propulsion, control and navigation
       systems.
       Buoyant = vehicles require periodic checks on the helium purity.
       This is done = frequently with blimps. For the vehicle operating at
       21 km, the = design has taken into account leakage of helium as well
       as migration of = air and water vapour into the helium enclosure.
       Degradation of = buoyant lift will be minimised by envelope design.
       Since it is not = practical to carry fuel aloft in a long-endurance
       buoyant = vehicle, all power must be generated on station. This
       includes = payload and propulsive power. A combination of
       photovoltaic = (PV) and fuel cell systems likely will be used to
       provide the = multiple kilowatts of power necessary for these
       functions. The = PV and regenerative fuel cell technologies required
       by the vehicle = are being developed based on work at NASA-Glenn in
       Cleveland and = NASA-Dryden at Edwards AFB.
       REF XQQAS = XQQTY

       Copyright(c) = 1996 - 2000 Defence Data Ltd. All rights reserved.

--
Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
< fortean1@frontiernet.net >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.ht= ml >
Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * = Mystic's Cyberpage *
   TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting = (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) = Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >
Southeast Asia (SEA) service:
Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st = Aviation Brigade
   (Jan 71 - Aug 72)
Thailand/Laos
 - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support = Thailand
   (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - = Aug 73)
 - Special Security/Strategic Communications - = Thailand
   (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig = Mountain) Signal Site
   (Aug 73 - Jan 74)

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7970.719C4CF0-- ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V9 #13 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner