From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V9 #16 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Monday, February 21 2000 Volume 09 : Number 016 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: BVRAAM, or is it BSRAAM? (way too long) Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #15 RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) FWD (FT) Re(5.7) Stealth Blimp? [was Re: Heat Capacity?] TR3 Photo? Re: TR3 Photo? RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) Re: TR3 Photo? RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Feb 100 21:08:43 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: BVRAAM, or is it BSRAAM? (way too long) Actually, I've been doing some research in this area and might be able to shed some light on the missiles in question. First, though, I need to clear one thing up that appeared in another post on this subject. Moi did not write: >This Ramjet powered version was apparently tested operationally >during the Gulf >war(1991) where a whole squadron of F-15s where fitted with the >weapon and several >kills with this weapon where credited to other weapons, to cover up the tests. because this isn't exactly true, it's more how the story has grown over the years. There have been rumors for years of work on a ramjet version of AIM-120, and that it actually exists. These rumors were essentially confirmed last year as part of USAF's backing of Raytheon's bid for Britain/Europe's next medium range missile which has gone by a number of names but usually is known as BVRAAM (Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile). Although Typhoon and other European aircraft will initially be armed with AIM-120, they all needed a more capable missile by the mid 00s or so. AIM-120 is a very impressive missile, but you got to keep in mind how old its technology is. The Europeans were looking for: A more robust seeker that additionally did not have AIM-120's lockon uncertainties when fired active off the rail. A longer ultimate range when used against AWACS, bombers, transports and ECM aircraft. A much larger "no-escape" zone for medium range engagements and a powered endgame where practical. The latter two objectives meant some kind of sustained power was required, which AMRAAM lacked. It's worthy of note that the Navy's AAAM would have exceeded all the European objectives, but it was killed due to lobbying by USAF and the decision to go with the Hornet E/F, which could use AAAM, but not to the missile's full capability. USAF for years has vehemently stated that there was no need for any missile more capable than minor upgrades to AIM-120. This is partly because they feared, rightly or wrongly, that any development of a more capable missile might lessen support of the F-22, one of whose tenets was that because of its stealth there was no need for an improved missile. This is not unprecedented. When the Eagle was in development, there were still a large degree of impressive growth capability left in the F-4 (one example being Israel's proposed RF-4X). Although there's no way you could make an F-4 s capable as an F-15, USAF still felt too much work on the F-4 would confuse the issue and so blocked work on any advanced derivatives. The second reason USAF didn't want any work on new or dramatically enhanced AMRAAM developments has to do with the F-22 itself. It's much harder to modify weapons carriage in an internal bay than it is for external carriage. In addition, one thing that was reported from the ATF competition was that the YF-22's bay was smaller than the YF-23's. What this meant was that missiles that were any larger simply wouldn't fit in the F-22, and since the Raptor does not boast conformal carriage, hanging them on a pylon compromises some of the F-22's stealth. For the record, AAAM was designed to be used on nay mount that could carry Sparrow. The British BVRAAM competition put USAF in one of their, "We don't need it or want it, but we'll be damned if anyone else will have it", positions. In addition, the US does not want to lose its dominant position in AAM sales. The European proposal is a boost-ramjet missile called Meteor which if produced will definitely be superior to existing versions of AMRAAM. This is not surprising since it would benefit from 10-15 years more advance in basic technology. It also would not have the export restrictions that US missiles have. The US has countered with a proposal for a partnership with Britain for a two-phase development based on AIM-120. The first is a AMRAAM with an improved head and development of the existing motor which could be available sooner than Meteor and is claimed will meet most of the British requirement. The second phase, following in a few years, would be further enhancements to the head and more importantly a ramjet sustainer, which would be available not that long after Meteor would have been fielded. This proposal has engendered interest in Britain, but there was a high degree of skepticism. USAF is notorious for promising to work jointly on something, and then once all alternatives are no longer viable, suddenly announcing that there really isn't any need for the joint weapon anyway and that they have no intention of continuing development or buying any of the weapon if produced. Frankly, no one believed USAF would really follllow through on the AIM-120 derivatives, especially since the ramjet version (and maybe even the interim version) would not fit in the F-22. To allay this concern, it was tacilty acknowledged that a ramjet AIM-120 demonstrator (that's a key word) had been built and flown. At the time AIM-120 was just entering service, experimental test models of the missile with ramjet propulsion were being tested. These were not prototypes for a production model. They were described as "ugly", with very boxy intakes not representative of what a production missile would use. As the story goes, a small number were sent to the Gulf War to be tested in a live environment from a select number (not a "whole squadron") of special F-15s. This is pretty standard practice, as a real shooting war is the accurate "simulation" there can be. Britain sent experimental weapons to the Falklands, we tested the F-117 out in Panama and during the Gulf, the JSTARS we used were development aircraft for a system that was tears away from being operational. The Marines and Bell/Boeing even wanted to send the V-22 demonstrators to the Gulf, but Cheney blocked that since he didn't want any more egg on his face over his stupid cancellation of the program. Reportedly these test missiles got around two kills, which were listed as AIM-7 kills. This information has shown up in a number of respected but not general interest defense publications as well, all around the same time, indicating a controlled, intentional leak. It's also been speculated that USAF used the existence of these flightworthy technology demonstrators in classified briefings as part of their lobbying effort to help kill AAAM, which had not yet gone to contractor selection. In the intervening years the technology has been kept on a very low burner, again in order to protect the F-22. If it weren't for the BVRAAM competition, I doubt if we'd have heard about it yet. Regarding why so many "inferior" AMRAAMs were bought instead of the ramjet version, it's simple. Even if the ramjet ones were actual prototypes (which they apparently weren't), they would be years away from service introduction, and the US needed AMRAAM now, and it was ready. It's sort of like advancing technology in PCs. At whatever time you pick, if you wait some years, there will be newer and better technology. However, if you have the need now, technology available in the future is of no use to you. Sooner or later you've got to say, "OK, I'll buy this". THE OTHER MISSILE When AMRAAM was being developed, the US agreed that in return for Europe buying AMRAAM, we'd buy the short range dogfight missile Europe developed. It even got a designator, AIM-132. We then, for various reasons, did not follow through. The US in general, and USAF in particular, does not like to buy foreign weapons. Only the Marines are willing to do so, since they tend to focus on the most capability per buck. There is even some discussion that they're going to buy Python IV, since they don't want to wait for AIM-9X. USAF for years was less than enthusiastic about a new IR missile, and unless they agree to participate, it's dead in the water over here. Partly they don't like IR/EO technology, and partly they don't want such a missile to be a threat to the F-22. With our studies of what the Russian IR missiles/helmet mounted sights could do, though, they decided to go along, at least for now. USN is managing the development, but USAF desires are given Heavy consideration. Python IV (and V) were excluded on the grounds that they were too heavy and would be difficult to integrate onto existing launchers of our aircraft. When people would point out that the Israelis, who developed Python, did not seem to have much problem using Python on their F-16s, said personnel were told to go stand in a corner (same thing happened when USAF said it would be impossible to put probe and drogue on the F-16 and were informed that Israel was already doing it). ASRAAM was rejected as not meeting the need, although it wasn't really specified as to what it didn't meet that AM-9X does. The two US competitors each bid a low and high version of their missile. The losing competitor had a much more capable seeker head, but tests indicated that it wouldn't really result in that many more kills, and it was more expensive. Cost was a big factor, given the underfunding of defense requirements that seems to be extending out as far as the eye could see. The missile selected was acknowledged to be the least capable of the four concepts submitted, but it was also the cheapest. Given the budget and USAF's lukewarm backing of the whole thing, this as to be expected. AIM-9X is essentially refurbishing existing AIM-9 airframes and motors and adding a new seeker head, thrust vectoring and integration with helmet sights. Art ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:14:17 +1030 From: Dennis Lapcewich Subject: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) The (former) Nurrungar USAF spy base (located near Woomera, South Australia) is for sale by tender. The tender closes 17 March 2000. Go to http://www.evansclarke.com.au/ and select the tender link. Among the items are: Two Radomes & Satellite Dishes - "STS Bravo comprised a 60-foot dish with dual elevation and azimuth motors for positioning. It was remotely controlled by computer workstations from inside the SRS workcentre, or locally from a similar workstation. It could also be manually positioned in emergency situations. Both the large mission antennas had simultaneous receive/transmit capability, with extra receiving horns providing autotracking capability, interference supression and scintillation processing to maximise signal quality." IBM 4381 Computer System - "The Data Reduction Centre used the IBN 4381 Computer System to process and record infrared data detected by satellite and transmitted by the Satellite Tracking Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was relayed through a variety of computers and electronic equipment and finally to the DRC'c IBM 4381 mainframe computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a support processor and an instruction processor. The processors filtered out any spurious data by comparing the data against pre programmed event criteria. Data that were not needed were discarded while data that met certain criteria were formatted and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, this time by human beings." We could bid for these items and end the stealth speculation once and for all! :) Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:25:57 -0500 From: Brian Mork Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #15 skunk-works-digest wrote: > At one point, ground controllers were amused to learn that astronaut Gerhard > Thiele's workout on an exercise bike actually helped hold the shuttle in the > right > position. Mission commander Kevin Kregel and pilot Dom Gorie took their > turns on > the bike Wednesday... > > Could the B-2 be using this same revolutionary propulsion system? :-) > Anyone have an idea how pedaling on a bike could help the shuttle? Don't know about the B-2, but as far as the shuttle is concerned, it's that old action and reaction stuff from Newton. Rotating the exercise wheel one way tends to rotate the shuttle the other. "Reaction Wheels" is the industry lingo when designed into a satellite. >From here I'm guessing, but as the shuttle orbits, they're probably making it do one "loop", too, to keep its bay opened to the earth. Thus helping it pivot around would be good and use less rocket thrust to do so. - -- Brian Mork, http://www.qsl.net/ka9snf, or mork@usa.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:03:44 -0500 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7C1B.0EFA2920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Wonder how many hectares and how much it might go for...... I'd love to live 'down-under' Greg W - -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Lapcewich [mailto:Dennis.Lapcewich@unisa.edu.au] Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 6:44 PM To: 'skunk-works@netwrx1.com' Subject: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) The (former) Nurrungar USAF spy base (located near Woomera, South Australia) is for sale by tender. The tender closes 17 March 2000. Go to http://www.evansclarke.com.au/ and select the tender link. Among the items are: Two Radomes & Satellite Dishes - "STS Bravo comprised a 60-foot dish with dual elevation and azimuth motors for positioning. It was remotely controlled by computer workstations from inside the SRS workcentre, or locally from a similar workstation. It could also be manually positioned in emergency situations. Both the large mission antennas had simultaneous receive/transmit capability, with extra receiving horns providing autotracking capability, interference supression and scintillation processing to maximise signal quality." IBM 4381 Computer System - "The Data Reduction Centre used the IBN 4381 Computer System to process and record infrared data detected by satellite and transmitted by the Satellite Tracking Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was relayed through a variety of computers and electronic equipment and finally to the DRC'c IBM 4381 mainframe computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a support processor and an instruction processor. The processors filtered out any spurious data by comparing the data against pre programmed event criteria. Data that were not needed were discarded while data that met certain criteria were formatted and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, this time by human beings." We could bid for these items and end the stealth speculation once and for all! :) Dennis - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7C1B.0EFA2920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic)

Wonder how many hectares and how much = it might go for...... I'd love to = live 'down-under'

Greg W

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Lapcewich [mailto:Dennis.Lapcewich@un= isa.edu.au]
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 6:44 = PM
To: 'skunk-works@netwrx1.com'
Subject: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? = (Off-Topic)


The (former) Nurrungar USAF spy base = (located near Woomera, South Australia) is
for sale by tender.  The tender = closes 17 March 2000.

Go to http://www.evansclarke.com.au/ and select the = tender link.

Among the items are:

Two Radomes & Satellite Dishes - = "STS Bravo comprised a 60-foot dish with dual
elevation and azimuth motors for = positioning. It was remotely controlled by
computer workstations from inside the = SRS workcentre, or locally from a similar
workstation. It could also be = manually positioned in emergency situations. Both
the large mission antennas had = simultaneous receive/transmit capability, with
extra receiving horns providing = autotracking capability, interference
supression and scintillation = processing to maximise signal quality."

IBM 4381 Computer System - "The = Data Reduction Centre used the IBN 4381
Computer System to process and record = infrared data detected by satellite and
transmitted by the Satellite Tracking = Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was
relayed through a variety of = computers and electronic equipment and finally to
the DRC'c IBM 4381 mainframe = computers. The mainframe computers each had dual
processors: a support processor and = an instruction processor. The processors
filtered out any spurious data by = comparing the data against pre programmed
event criteria. Data that were not = needed were discarded while data that met
certain criteria were formatted and = sent to the SOC for further evaluation,
this time by human beings." =


We could bid for these items and end = the stealth speculation once and for all!
:)


Dennis




- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7C1B.0EFA2920-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:11:28 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (FT) Re(5.7) Stealth Blimp? [was Re: Heat Capacity?] Pucabob wrote on: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:50:53 EST ><< blimp would stand out at any altitude due to the heat ><< capacity of the lifting gas. >> >This statement leave me completely confused! Are you trying to >say Helium can't assume ambient temperature ? >We use Fiberglass ladders with the edges 45 degrees out of >where you'd expect a corner to be, for use out side the skin >of our stealthy Destroyers. It works quite well and would be >about half as strong as a steel ladder, I see no reason a >Zepplin couldn't have a fibrebased frame although it would >probably be carbon filament material. >Puca Thermal stealth uses slightly different technologies to radar stealth. Sunlight heats the lifting gas in an airship. Helium has about five times the specific heat capacity of air, so once it gets warm it has to lose a lot of energy to cool it down. Hydrogen is even worse - it's specific heat capacity is over fourteen times that of air. The lifting gas would eventually reach ambient, but it would take some considerable time. Since even civilian police infra-red sensors can pick out tyre marks on asphalt roads, we're looking at a large vehicle glowing (in the thermal region) like a floodlit sports stadium. The solution would be to store the stealth zeppelin during the daytime in an air-conditioned hanger chilled to typical night- time temperatures. Carbon-Fibre Reinforced Composites (CFCs) are extremely stiff and strength-to-weight ratios are comparable to more traditional aircraft materials. Their major drawbacks is that they are so hard that special cutting and drilling techniques are required to make holes for fasteners to assemble large structures. The material also produces dangerous by-products when it burns (special procedures need to be adopted to tackle a crashed and burning aircraft that has a lot of CFCs in its structure). The 45-degrees features on the fibreglass ladders tally with the "avoid 90-degree corners" concept of radar-stealthy designs. Fibreglass is a non-conductor, which also gives very poor radar return. Robin Hill, BAE SYSTEMS, Brough, East Yorkshire. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 00 14:02:45 PST From: Nick Subject: TR3 Photo? I read on this list a few months ago that a European magazine had posted an alleged photo of the TR3. I searched at the time, but could not locate it. Someone else did and sent it, along with the alleged unit patch (image) to me. I have no idea as to the authenticity, but.... I have posted it on a page at: http://www.angelfire.com/de/deger/page7.html ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:20:09 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: TR3 Photo? > I read on this list a few months ago > that a European magazine had posted an > alleged photo of the TR3. > > I searched at the time, but could not > locate it. > > Someone else did and sent it, along with the > alleged unit patch (image) to me. I have no > idea as to the authenticity, but.... > > I have posted it on a page at: > > http://www.angelfire.com/de/deger/page7.html The picture is too messed up to be able to tell what the heck the pictured object is. It is very heavily pixelated and GoatoShop(TM) may have been used to create or alter it. The picture also had the heck compressed out of it so it is impossible to say what is really shown in the picture. "I" suspect it was faked. Sam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:00:47 +1030 From: Dennis Lapcewich Subject: RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) Greg,   Actually the base is for sale but the land upon which it sits is not.  :)   It is my understanding from media reports the land is to be returned to its original state and all human impact and evidence of prior use removed.    Dennis - -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) Wonder how many hectares and how much it might go for...... I'd love to live 'down-under' Greg W Subject: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) The (former) Nurrungar USAF spy base (located near Woomera, South Australia) is for sale by tender.  The tender closes 17 March 2000. Go to http://www.evansclarke.com.au/ and select the tender link.   - --  snip  --   ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:11:44 -0800 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: TR3 Photo? >> I read on this list a few months ago >> that a European magazine had posted an >> alleged photo of the TR3. >> >> I searched at the time, but could not >> locate it. >> >> Someone else did and sent it, along with the >> alleged unit patch (image) to me. I have no >> idea as to the authenticity, but.... >> >> I have posted it on a page at: >> >> http://www.angelfire.com/de/deger/page7.html > > >The picture is too messed up to be able to tell what the heck the pictured >object is. It is very heavily pixelated and GoatoShop(TM) may have >been used to >create or alter it. The picture also had the heck compressed out of >it so it is >impossible to say what is really shown in the picture. > >"I" suspect it was faked. > >Sam I've seen it several times before in UFO publications, and seen a number of similar photos and video from places as far from Belgium (where this was purportedly taken) as you can get- Ohio, Oregon, etc. JPL and others have analyized this particular photo, but IIRC they found nothing conclusive. Apparently the Belgian AF was interested enough to attempt to intercept triangular "things" at the time. Glenn's Belgian Triangle link page: Video footage this still is from(?) : And a fairly objective record of Belgian F-16 intercepts of the triangular contacts: Note the details on how it was only observable on radar from some aspects. Of more interest to me is the patch on the page- note the star in the general area of New Mexico or Nevada :) Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Have you exported RSA today? print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Subject: RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7CEA.3B7FBF44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis, you ruined my dreams! I contacted a friend of mine, who lives in Sydney. He told me that = that area is so far out in the middle of nothing, that you have to take a = plane to it if you want to go there from the nearest town!! =20 Interesting..... you would think that something like this would be all = over their news, but he hadn't heard a thing about it! Ah well.... so much for my vacation resort in the outback! <|:-) Greg W=20 - -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Lapcewich [mailto:Dennis.Lapcewich@unisa.edu.au] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 8:31 PM To: 'skunk-works@netwrx1.com' Cc: 'GREGWEIGOLD@pmsc.com' Subject: RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic) Greg, =A0 Actually the base is for sale but the land upon which it sits is = not.=A0 :) =A0 It is my understanding from media reports the land is to be returned to = its original state and all human impact and evidence of prior use = removed.=A0 =A0 Dennis - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7CEA.3B7FBF44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? (Off-Topic)

Dennis, you ruined my dreams! <VBG>
I contacted a friend of mine, who lives in = Sydney.  He told me that that area is so far out in the middle of = nothing, that you have to take a plane to it if you want to go there = from the nearest town!! 

Interesting.....  you would think that something = like this would be all over their news, but he hadn't heard a thing = about it!

Ah well.... so much for my vacation resort in the = outback!   <|:-)

Greg W

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Lapcewich [mailto:Dennis.Lapcewich@un= isa.edu.au]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 8:31 PM
To: 'skunk-works@netwrx1.com'
Cc: 'GREGWEIGOLD@pmsc.com'
Subject: RE: Wanna Buy A Spy Base? = (Off-Topic)


Greg,
=A0
Actually the base is for sale but the land upon = which it sits is not.=A0 :)
=A0
It is my understanding from media reports the land = is to be returned to its
original state and all human impact and evidence of = prior use removed.=A0
=A0
Dennis

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF7CEA.3B7FBF44-- ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V9 #16 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner