From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V9 #28 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Friday, April 14 2000 Volume 09 : Number 028 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #26 Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" 1957 Press Release Re: B-2 Changing Colour? Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #26 RE: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" (fwd) Area 51: Reveille Peak, new viewpoint for both Groom and Papoose Lake (9-4-99) Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Latest AvWeek on YF-113G Re: YF-113G Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #26 Re: Latest AvWeek on YF-113G *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:23:58 -0400 From: Paul Heinrich Subject: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Hi Guys, I have a weird and off-topic question, but at least it isn't UFO related. I'm trying to find out if the slang word "unobtanium" was used prior to 1982. I think that it has been in use since the 1950s and was coined by an aerospace engineer. Additionally, I suspect the author of the word was Kelly Johnson, which is why I'm posting my question here. Can anybody cite a pre-1980 reference for the word? thank you, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:54:34 -0700 From: Lee Markland Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #26 At 09:03 PM 4/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >This revision of the rec.aviation.military FAQ sums it up: > > >For a long time it's been thought that the "century series" >designators have been allocated to Russian aircraft flown by the Red >Hats in programs like HAVE DOUGHNUT. Recently the AF has come closer >and closer to disclosing the Red Hats programs, having already >publically announced the aquisition of Moldavian MiG-29s - I've even >seen a photo of one serving as a "gate guardian" at a US base (sorry, >don't have a link for the photo). Perhaps this is the activity that >people have been seeing at Tonopah since 1996- maybe the Red Hats are >getting more permanent facilities. > >And what better place to hide the designator for a classified stealth >aircraft than within a series of designators for other classified >programs? The F117 is a lot older than the official 1974 date. I have a personal friend, that worked for a subcontractor, casting handles for the F117 back in 1969. It's Century Series designation pegs it as an approved design circa 1964. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:06:56 -0500 From: "Tom C Robison" Subject: Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" I remember from the late 1960s/early 1970s that some of the metal used Roger Penske's Can-Am Porsche cars was euphemistically called unobtanium. Not sure what it really was. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT) From: CFA3@webtv.net (C.F.A.3) Subject: 1957 Press Release Bechtel Nevada for the DOE, just sent me a copy of an unclassified 1957 Press Release. I don't know if it has been discussed here before, but I thought I'd share. It States: - ---------------------------------------------- OTI-57-70                 JULY 29, 1957 Nevada Test Organization OFFICE OF TEST INFORMATION 1235 South Main Street Las Vegas, Nevada Telephone: DUdley 2-6350 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE       A pilot who landed his small private aircraft late Sunday on the Watertown air strip within the restricted air space over the Nevada Test Site was to take off today after being detained overnight in Mercury.       The pilot is Edward K Current, Jr., of Redondo Beach, California, an employee of the Douglas Aircraft Company. He was on a cross country training flight from Torrance, California, to Las Vegas when he lost his way, ran low on gas, and landed at Watertown.       The Watertown landing strip is in the Groom Lake area at the northeast corner of the Nevada Test Site.       Nevada Test Organization security officials reported the incident to the Civil Aeronautics Administration, which administers the air closures over the Test Site. - ---------------------------------------------- Clarence Alvey III (Ex- McDonnell Douglas/Boeing-Long Beach) http://community.webtv.net/CFA3/GroomLakeAudubon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:05:54 -0400 From: Kevin Klapperich Subject: Re: B-2 Changing Colour? I'd like to know who posted this info on Usenet and ask them who wrote this article as well as why it's two years old. I agree that it's face value does not hold much weight, but I also think that this is the kind of technology that the U.S. military is pursuing. True, it doesn't seem likely that they could use it on the B-2 or that if they did the military would show it to French intelligence at an air show. However, I would still like some more background on where, how, and by who this story surfaced before I'm willing to completely write it off. Gary, if you can provide any more information behind this I would appreciate it. Thanks Kevin At 12:59 AM 04/12/2000 +0100, you wrote: >Found this on Usenet. > > > > > >Intelligence, N. 61, 2 June 1997, p. 11 > >STEALTH - A Colorful "Private" Show in Paris. > >According to French intelligence rumors, a select group of French >military figures were very impressed last week by a "private" >demonstration inside a secured hangar at Le Bourget near Paris. In >preparation for the coming Paris Air Show at Le Bourget, a >U.S. B-2 stealth bomber arrived and was immediately "put under wraps". >The select group visited the hangar and watched in amazement as a B-2 >crew member in the cockpit changed the color of the aircraft from sky >gray to camouflage green and then to jet black. The technology for >variable aircraft coloration has been under development for some time >and was known now to be available. Apparently, by changing the >aircraft's skin temperature with embedded heating elements, the >thermally active paint changes color. French authorities were duly >impressed. >..................................... > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:49:01 -0400 From: John Stone Subject: Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Hello all, Tom Robison wrote: >I remember from the late 1960s/early 1970s that some of the metal used >Roger Penske's Can-Am Porsche cars was euphemistically called >unobtanium. Not sure what it really was. Actually wasn't it the mid to late 70's, 'cause Porsche ran the WMC cars(and some specially made 908s) in Can-Am first and then Penske started running the 917-10, then the 917-30 cars. All my books on Porsche racing cars are buried behind stuff in the basement, but I remember them being referred to as being built with unobtanium. Best, John - -- John Stone blackbirds@iname.com U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.blackbirds.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:04:35 +0100 From: "David" Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #26 From: Lee Markland | The F117 is a lot older than the official 1974 date. I have a personal | friend, that worked for a subcontractor, casting handles for the F117 back | in 1969. It's Century Series designation pegs it as an approved design | circa 1964. There's nothing straightforward about the F-117's designation, it's true. The first question is why it's has an F in it :) A partial answer can be found in the fact that formerly classified a/c such as the U-2 seem to have designations that are intended to confuse their true purpose. People I've interviewed about classified programmes rarely know anything about the true end product - they just know their little bit. I'm just trying to understand why a sub-contractor would need to know they were making a component for a black programme a/c. Oh well... D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:37:21 +0930 From: Dennis Lapcewich Subject: RE: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Go to http://www.google.com/ and type in "unobtanium" (without the quotes). I'm sure you will discern a pattern. :) > Hello all, > > Tom Robison wrote: > >I remember from the late 1960s/early 1970s that some of the > metal used > >Roger Penske's Can-Am Porsche cars was euphemistically called > >unobtanium. Not sure what it really was. > > Actually wasn't it the mid to late 70's, 'cause Porsche ran the WMC > cars(and some specially made 908s) in Can-Am first and then Penske > started running the 917-10, then the 917-30 cars. All my books on > Porsche racing cars are buried behind stuff in the basement, but I > remember them being referred to as being built with unobtanium. > > Best, > > John > -- > > John Stone > > blackbirds@iname.com > > U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.blackbirds.net > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:25:22 -0500 From: "George R. Kasica" Subject: (fwd) Area 51: Reveille Peak, new viewpoint for both Groom and Papoose Lake (9-4-99) On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 21:25:22 +0200, "Meinrad Eberle" wrote: ...and it didn't make it on the 12th either! Terry, can you try and post the following to Skunkworks Mailing List, please? Your help is much appreciated. Kind regards from the Swiss Alps - --Meinrad - ----- Original Message ----- From: Meinrad Eberle To: George Kasica Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:07 PM Subject: Fw: Area 51: Reveille Peak, new viewpoint for both Groom and Papoose Lake (9-4-99) Hi George, Please be so kind as to post fwd e-mail below to Skunkworks Mailing List, ok? It apparently didn't make it on 4-6-00. Thanks a lot for your help. - --Meinrad - ----- Original Message ----- From: Meinrad Eberle To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: Area 51: Reveille Peak, new viewpoint for both Groom and Papoose Lake (9-4-99) Surviving the entire Labour Day weekend 1999 was that blue-white lawnchair chained to Groom Road's 40 MPH-sign, together with a 40x35 centimeters measuring metal "postcard", close to the inter- section with Highway 375: "Dear Area 51 Commander: Have just added Reveille Peak to our bag of tricks. Try to land-grab this one!" -The Groom Lake Interceptors" Sign's backside: "Always around when expected the least". ..In forthcoming May issue [on sale from 4-14-00], UK-based AIRCRAFT ILLUSTRATED [ http://www.ianallanpub.co.uk/airillus ]will publish Part Three of "Secrets of Area 51", featuring.. - - the discovery of the DEADLY DANGEROUS new Area 51 viewpoint REVEILLE PEAK (8800 ft.) by a joint Swiss-US hiker team on 9-4-99 - - world-exclusive photographs taken on top of the Peak showing both Groom Lake base and Papoose Lake on one picture - - tips and tricks (apparently including detailed maps, mileage logs) about how to find this new viewpoint, check it out for yourselves and - above all - survive the whole thang. Plus not yet disclosed related topics and pictures/artwork. AI website at http://www.ianallanpub.co.uk/airillus They might do RESERVATIONS for above-mentioned Report's Part 3 (but don't blame me if not). To at least try and secure a copy, you might be so daring as to contact sales@ianallanpub.co.uk to have them arrange that for you. Furtheron, as indicated in mag's editorial, any desired back issues are subject to availability. To avoid disappointment, check availability before you order. Each copy costs Cover Price [£ 3,10 for UK, Swiss Francs 12.- for the Continental Alps] plus P & P: 70 p for UK, £ 1,30 Europe, £ 1,95 rest of world. Their fax #: 01932 266633. Meinrad Eberle, Switzerland 4-4-2000 George, MR. Tibbs & The Beast Kasica Waukesha, WI USA georgek@netwrx1.com http://www.netwrx1.com ICQ #12862186 Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'_' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:16:24 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" IMHO (in my humble opinion): 1. Helendale is a relatively flat, sparse piece of property with very few facilities for supporting aircraft. It is not a flight development center as Palmdale is. It is not a fully operational test base as Edwards is. Both of these are minutes away by air. Helendale RCS is merely a static outdoor range for testing of scale models or small full scale airframes mounted on a non reflective pole. It would be very improbable for this facility to serve any other function. It is located close to LADC at Palmdale and thus has no need for any infrastructure or personnel or facilities to support flight testing. You just don't land expensive black aircraft at old unattended closed county airports located 2 miles out of town. And in fact no one saw anything land there. This is similar yet much weaker than Chris Gibson's siting. So anything else is simply speculation. 2. Regarding the B-2 story from Paris, I don't see how any of these optical masking devices could possibly be retrofitted to a B-2 which was designed many years ago. David Lednicer may be able to shed some light here (no pun intended). But you just can't take a hi-tech design like the B-2 and re-skin it with a new design totally foreign to the original wing skins and structures. And no I don't believe all the B-2's have had this in the original design/fabrication. So if it is a modification then why send the new version to an air show and not an original design not incorporating state of the art secret technology? No comments on the French. They are sitting in my family tree. >>I remember from the late 1960s/early 1970s that some of the metal used >>Roger Penske's Can-Am Porsche cars was euphemistically called >>unobtanium. Not sure what it really was. > >Actually wasn't it the mid to late 70's, 'cause Porsche ran the WMC >cars(and some specially made 908s) in Can-Am first and then Penske started >running the 917-10, then the 917-30 cars. All my books on Porsche racing >cars are buried behind stuff in the basement, but I remember them being >referred to as being built with unobtanium. 3. Porsche and Roger Penske go back a long ways. Roger was Porsche's driver of the year once for his victories driving a Porsche in SCCA amateur racing. Porsche has always encouraged private entrants to buy pure racing cars and campaign them side by side with the factory team. They loved the publicity, even to the point of encouraging the privateers into beating them to the finish line. It sold a lot of cars on Monday. But the factory also held back a few goodies, either to do further testing or to ensure a Porsche was first across the finish line. These were the "unobtanium" parts referred to. It wasn't necessarily the type material used but the fact that it was a trick part only available to a factory team. Penske had access to some of these parts as he essentially was the factory team with the 917-10 in Can-Am racing. Read "The Unfair Advantage" by the late Mark Donahue, Penske's confidant/driver for some insight at Chevrolet and Porsche. patrick cullumber ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:25:57 -0400 From: Gunman and Jacks Subject: Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" Not sure about when it was first used, but I know Oakley sunglasses trademarked it for the material used in some of thier sunglasses. You wrote: >Hi Guys, > > I have a weird and off-topic question, but at least it isn't UFO >related. I'm trying to find out if the slang word "unobtanium" was used >prior to 1982. I think that it has been in use since the 1950s and was >coined by an aerospace engineer. Additionally, I suspect the author of >the word was Kelly Johnson, which is why I'm posting my question here. >Can anybody cite a pre-1980 reference for the word? > >thank you, Paul - ------------------------------------------------ Gunman and Jacks PGP Key Available (see headers) - ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:01:31 -0700 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: OT: engineering slang "unobtanium" >IMHO (in my humble opinion): > >1. Helendale is a relatively flat, sparse piece of property with >very few facilities for supporting aircraft. It is not a flight >development center as Palmdale is. It is not a fully operational >test base as Edwards is. Both of these are minutes away by air. >Helendale RCS is merely a static outdoor range for testing of scale >models or small full scale airframes mounted on a non reflective >pole. It would be very improbable for this facility to serve any >other function. It is located close to LADC at Palmdale and thus >has no need for any infrastructure or personnel or facilities to >support flight testing. You just don't land expensive black >aircraft at old unattended closed county airports located 2 miles >out of town. And in fact no one saw anything land there. This is >similar yet much weaker than Chris Gibson's siting. So anything >else is simply speculation. > Well, until the mid 1960s, Groom Lake was in about the same condition, yet it supported the flight testing and partial operation of several classified aircraft programs. Then again, I don't think anyone was under the impression that Helendale was being used for flight test work, other than UFO types seeing odd shapes come out of the ground . Under any number of conditions it would be more desirable to put a classified aircraft down at Helendale rather than Edwards or Palmdale. Wether or not Helendale is a base for supporting flight operations is mostly irrelevant- fir all we know the aircraft was disassembled and trucked to Palmdale, or crashed into a million pieces, or was only doing airborne RCS or antenna work, or was doing a flyby for the company president. The sightings stand on their own- there is nothing to categorically refute them, nor is there any real answer to the question of what it was or what it was dong there to be gleaned from them. And Helendale isn't an "old, unattended closed county airport". It's a corporate facility supporting classified/proprietary development. The strip there has been used in the (recent) past to support corporate aircraft at odd hours of the day, and the facility is anything but unattended. The field is closed to the public, like every other RCS facility, but Lockheed aircraft still use it- but it's not "closed". "You just don't land expensive black aircraft at old unattended closed county airports located 2 miles out of town." But landing them at secure private facilities that are dedicated to supporting black aircraft programs is far more reasonable. Still, it would be interesting to know if Lockheed had a Starship at the time, and if it was known to be in southern California. Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Have you exported RSA today? print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Subject: Re: YF-113G Erik Hoel asked: >Also, the question that begs is what (if anything) is known about: >YF-113A >YF-113B >... >YF-113F >Andreas? Sorry, as I am not privy to any secret or confidential information, and have no other sources than open publications, I don't know anything more than what was posted lately here on the Skunk Works List. That is: The following non-standard designations were/are apparently used for still unacknowledged, 'black' aircraft (based solely on AW&ST and Pete's posting). * YF-113A ('black' aircraft ???) * YF-113B ('black' aircraft ???) * YF-113C ('black' aircraft ???) * YF-113D ('black' aircraft ??? -- but may not exist) * YF-113E ('black' aircraft ???) * YF-113F ('black' aircraft ??? -- but may not exist) * YF-113G (early stealth prototype / test aircraft or MiG-23 'Flogger G') * YF-117D (F-117A derivative ???) Not much, is it? And I doubt those 'designations' can be considered as real MDS (Mission Design Series) designations, as they are not only 'non-standard' and 'incorrect', but also secret, and for that simple reason nobody (outside of the program) would use or even know about them, anyway. If and when any of those aircraft would become 'officially acknowledged' or even integrated in the US military, those 'designations' may very well become 'real designations', even though they are totally spurious. This happened several times before, e.g. "YF-12A", "F-12B", "YF-12C", "YF-117A", "F-117A", etc. It also happens with 'normal' aircraft, like the "UC-880", not to mention all the 'un-designated' aircraft used by the US military, that don't have any MDS designation at all, and go by their manufacturers model name or designation. Actually, I would have been much more surprised, if they would have used 'correct' MDS designations. :) The 'corrected' AW&ST version that George just posted makes much more sense, and seems much more likely to me. With the exception of the F-110 designation (which was assigned to the F-4C before 1962), there would also be no conflict with existing MDS designations. Especially the following part: >During the 1970s and 1980s, numerical designations for captured or >clandestinely obtained foreign aircraft and U.S. "black" projects were >assigned numerical designations on a chronological basis by the Flight >Records Group at Norton AFB, Calif., hence the F-117 stealth fighter and >other classified, U.S.-built projects appears in the same sequence as >re-designated Soviet aircraft. is much more 'logical' or 'probable', as far as one can assign such adjectives to the US military in general and 'black' Projects in particular. We will probably know for sure in about 20 years or so, after mandatory de-classification, which FSU and other test aircraft received which designations. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 1517 Michigan Avenue or: gpahl@wazoo.com Alamogordo, NM 88310 Tel: (505) 437-0378 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Re: skunk-works-digest V9 #26 Lee Markland wrote: >The F117 is a lot older than the official 1974 date. I have a personal >friend, that worked for a subcontractor, casting handles for the F117 back >in 1969. It's Century Series designation pegs it as an approved design >circa 1964. This is total crap! The designation system changed on September 18, 1962 (or October 1, 1962), and not "circa 1964". This "personal friend" would not have had the need to know for what aircraft (if any) he was "casting handles". And the "official date" for the start of the F-117 program is November 1978, when SENIOR TREND FSD (Full Scale Development) was approved. HAVE BLUE, XST and Project HARVEY may go back to 1974/75, but those were predecessors of the F-117. And 1969 or 1964 are just ridiculous. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas & Kathryn Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: schnars@ais.org 1517 Michigan Avenue or: gpahl@wazoo.com Alamogordo, NM 88310 Tel: (505) 437-0378 WWW URL: http://www.ais.org/~schnars/ - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:44:48 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: Re: Latest AvWeek on YF-113G I agree maybe with the designation idea, but why would they mix red hat and black projects up? Seems like you're asking for trouble. After all someone somewhere would have to know about everything both sides of the fence. That to me is a security risk. If TAC had one squadron made up of fighters, who had the other squadron and what was it made up of? Also, what has happened to the command of all these aircraft? - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "skunk-works" Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 4:58 PM Subject: Latest AvWeek on YF-113G > I'm not totally sure I belive all of this, but FYI . . . > > The discussion of the Century Series designators has appeared before, on this list and elsewhere. The re-emergence of this theory may have prompted the report of the "Northrop F-121 Sentinel" in April's Aircraft Illustrated. > > > Mysterious YF-113G Was Actually A MiG-23 > > > by David A. Fulghum > > Aviation Week & Space Technology > > 04/13/00 06:19:10 PM U.S. EDT > > The U.S. Air Force's classified YF-113G aircraft was a MiG-23, not an early effort to explore radar-evading technologies, as reported last week. The existence of the aircraft was verified by one service official, but a second had mistakenly identified it as a U.S. stealth testbed that was abandoned by the early 1980s. > > The YF-113G designation was assigned to MiG-23s -- a fighter built in the Soviet bloc that NATO code-named "Flogger" -- flown clandestinely by two special projects units. The aircraft flew in the late 1970s along with "a whole range of aircraft that have operated [on the Nellis test ranges] for years," a senior Air Force official said. > > An air traffic controller at Nellis AFB, Nev., who retired in 1981, told Aviation Week & Space Technology that pilots from a squadron called the Red Hats operated Soviet-bloc aircraft with the designations, among others, of YF-110, YF-112 and YF-113 with various suffixes. > > During the 1970s and 1980s, numerical designations for captured or clandestinely obtained foreign aircraft and U.S. "black" projects were assigned numerical designations on a chronological basis by the Flight Records Group at Norton AFB, Calif., hence the F-117 stealth fighter and other classified, U.S.-built projects appears in the same sequence as re-designated Soviet aircraft. > > In fact, the Air Force sources say, there were two classified units flying Soviet equipment on the Nellis ranges. Tactical Air Command had the Red Eagles, who operated the aircraft for dissimilar combat and tactics development. The Red Hats flew the aircraft while conducting engineering analysis and technical exploitation of the aircraft for Air Force Systems Command. The units recruited some of the services most talented pilots and engineers, such as Lt. Gen. David McCloud, the late commander of Alaska Air Command, who flew with the Red Eagles. The units were disbanded after the end of the Cold War. > > The Soviet-built aircraft were primarily operated from the restricted Tonopah air base in the northwest corner of the Nevada range complex. Lt. Gen. Robert Bond, vice commander of Air Force Systems Command, died after ejecting near Tonopah from an "Air Force specially modified test aircraft" on April 26, 1984. It was thought to be a MiG-23. > > Copyright 2000 AviationNow.Com > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Get your free email from AltaVista at http://altavista.iname.com > ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V9 #28 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner