From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V9 #33 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Wednesday, April 19 2000 Volume 09 : Number 033 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: (fwd) Area 51: Triangular aircraft sighted, radio transmiss Re: More follow-up re: fastmover.... Government incompetence now on terraserver:Area 51 (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National Security) RE: (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National Security) Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Chalk up another X-plane Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Re: Government incompetence Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Hackers Attack TerraServer [Area 51 images] Diagonal runway on Groom Lake Re: Diagonal runway on Groom Lake acquired aircraft Mig-29 and SU-27 *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:06:24 -0700 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: RE: (fwd) Area 51: Triangular aircraft sighted, radio transmiss If you immediately transmitted it, and then deleted it from whatever equipment you have onsite, how could they even begin to accuse you of taking pictures? Not that reality and the military ever occur at the same time.... Doesn't matter, they'll seize that material anyway as they have in the past. Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ The software you were born with helps you write code into the wee small hours, find the bugs in your competitors' products, and create fake demos for the first six months of a project. It deserves the operating system designed to work with it: the MacOS. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:37:44 -0400 From: John Stone Subject: Re: More follow-up re: fastmover.... Todd Madson wrote: >If Meinrad had taken a photograph of this rare bird, what then? I'm confused, this dude came from Switzerland to go see Area 51 and maybe some secret aircraft and didn't bring a camera(digital or film) or camcorder? Or was he so stunned at actually seeing what he came all those miles to see he forgot to take a picture! >A sticky situation to say the least. What then? Keep it in >private and look at it? Risk publicizing it? Who are we hiding it from, taxpayers, the Soviets, Chinese, Swiss guys without cameras, toy makers? I vote for the taxpayers! :) Who cares if he publishes it, will it be the end of the world, will it bring down the free world as we know it? Personally, I don't think he saw anything! Best, John - -- John Stone blackbirds@iname.com U-2 & SR-71 Web page: http://www.blackbirds.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:23:37 -0400 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: Government incompetence Dan wrote: > > The F-117 was captured on film hundreds of times before it was > revealed to the public. Some of the photos weren't recognized for > what they were, others were left unpubished, some film was seized by > the FBI or AF after the fact. > > Classified aircraft are photographed or otherwise captured on film > all the time. So are UFOs and the Loch Ness monster, but that has > never proved those existed or not. "Photographic evidence" is very > easily refuted. Steve Douglass has video of an unknown aircraft (or > two, or three) that has been in the public domain for several years. > It didn't prove the existance of anything, it didn't prompt the AF to > disclose anything, not much came of it. > > And if the Swiss Mountain Bat and his team did photograph what they > saw, they might have to give their film to the Lincoln County sherrif > or DET 3 Security Police anyway, and would have faced stiff fines. > And if they got the photos out and published them, they'd be in even > more legal trouble. > > The armed services are infinitely stupid at securing things. You > could ready endless GAO reports, DoD memos, and public statements to > that effect. DOE annual Material Unnaccounted For - missing fissile > material like plutonium and enriched uranium- statements clearly > attest that America's most valuable national security assests > routinely "slip through the cracks". Whole nuclear weapons regularly > go missing, and those that are in storage are poorly guarded and > maintained. Keeping a lid on a classified flight test program is > whole orders of magnitude more difficult, as any way you slice it, it > *will* fly over or around populated areas at some point, not matter > how much public land the US decides to take away. The Nellis range > may be large indeed, but it soon feels tiny when testing programs for > things like Tier 3 and the F-117 are conducted there. F-117 pilots > have publically stated that they regularly flew training missions to > administraively attack targets on Lake Tahoe, which is a far cry from > a restricted military reservation. > > Thankfully, the Air Force doesn't control every camera in the > country. They can't really prevent their aircraft from been > photographed. to which I can only add: History is on your side. Jim Stevenson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:32:36 PDT From: "wayne binkley" Subject: now on terraserver:Area 51 >From: Dan Zinngrabe >There are lots of ways to do it, but you're almost certainly going to >lose whatever equipment you bring on site, and may face criminal >charges regardless. Not a cheap photo, eh? > >Dan xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx well,dan,i guess i'll just have to go to terraserver and view the satellite view of "groom dry lake AFB".after all, it's free! wayne d.binkley ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:14:18 -0700 (PDT) From: CFA3@webtv.net (C.F.A.3) Subject: (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National Security) >From: Todd Madson > >If Meinrad had taken a photograph of this rare >bird, what then? >A sticky situation to say the least. What then? >Keep it in private and look at it?   Risk >publicizing it? >It's not the kind of thing you'd want to trust to a >1 hour photo lab. I'm not sure I'd use a >conventional camera given the opportunity. >If it's a digital image, it could be on the internet >in seconds, but would you want to? I'm not so >sure. Yes, it's great to wonder about the great >advances in aviation. But publicizing things >before they are announced reaches a moral >grey area. The old loose lips sink ships adage. > >The signs plainly say no photography and >references the much vaunted internal security >act of 1950. I'd bet the penalties for something >like this would be rather strict. >And the Swiss mountain bat as he is dubbed >isn't from here. What kind of penalties can >someone not from the US receive for, say, >photographing a plane like this and then >publicizing it? >It's not like someone had hung around >Tonopah >in the early 80s and captured an F-117 flying >and sent it to "Aircraft Fetish" magazine. >Anyone have comments on a dilemma like >this? >What would you do if you found yourself in >possession of a clear color photo of a >classified >aircraft? I make more trips to the area around Groom and Tonopah, than I write about. I know of some outstanding places to observe and listen. It's a strange hobby I have, I know, but the quiet of the desert nights is a compelling draw away from the craze of city life. Plus, I like planes. I have sat many nights wondering about the "What If". If I saw something...and captured it on tape. And, ...it is quite simple ...NATIONAL SECURITY COMES FIRST. Who am I to go blabbing, after catching something? I would more likely than not, be uncontrollably excited, spit up my hot chocolate, step in the fire and burn myself, and scare the hell out of the coyotes. ...But after I settled, I'm afraid not even AW&ST would get a copy. At least not until that 'first' grainy 'unclassified' photo is released by the Pentagon. Actually, I might send Nellis a copy!! C3 http://community.webtv.net/CFA3/GroomLakeAudubon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:28:16 -0400 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National Security) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFA95B.7B68AC5E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think I'd have to vote the same way.... National Security comes first. I think I would document the HECK out of it, so that when its no longer 'black' (or the Enquirer has already leaked it), I could bring out my picutres and say, 'Yeah, I had these from 2 years before that, but I didn't give in to the temptations....'. Sending Nellis or the Pentagon, or someone like that a copy would be BLAST though.... Greg W - -----Original Message----- From: CFA3@webtv.net [mailto:CFA3@webtv.net] Sent: April 18, 2000 12:14 PM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National Security) I have sat many nights wondering about the "What If". If I saw something...and captured it on tape. And, ...it is quite simple ...NATIONAL SECURITY COMES FIRST. Who am I to go blabbing, after catching something? I would more likely than not, be uncontrollably excited, spit up my hot chocolate, step in the fire and burn myself, and scare the hell out of the coyotes. ...But after I settled, I'm afraid not even AW&ST would get a copy. At least not until that 'first' grainy 'unclassified' photo is released by the Pentagon. Actually, I might send Nellis a copy!! C3 http://community.webtv.net/CFA3/GroomLakeAudubon - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFA95B.7B68AC5E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National = Security)

I think I'd have to vote the same way.... National = Security comes first.

I think I would document the HECK out of it, so that = when its no longer 'black' (or the Enquirer has already leaked it), I = could bring out my picutres and say, 'Yeah, I had these from 2 years = before that, but I didn't give in to the temptations....'.

Sending Nellis or the Pentagon, or someone like that = a copy would be BLAST though....

Greg W

-----Original Message-----
From: CFA3@webtv.net [mailto:CFA3@webtv.net]
Sent: April 18, 2000 12:14 PM
To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com
Subject: (More follow-up) re: fastmover....(National = Security)

I have sat many nights wondering about the "What = If". If I saw
something...and captured it on tape. And, ...it is = quite simple
...NATIONAL SECURITY COMES FIRST. Who am I to go = blabbing, after
catching something? I would more likely than not, be = uncontrollably
excited, spit up my hot chocolate, step in the fire = and burn myself, and
scare the hell out of the coyotes. ...But after I = settled, I'm afraid
not even AW&ST would get a copy. At least not = until that 'first' grainy
'unclassified' photo is released by the = Pentagon.

Actually, I might send Nellis a copy!!

C3

http://community.webtv.net/CFA3/GroomLakeAudubon

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFA95B.7B68AC5E-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:08:10 -0400 (EDT) From: george.allegrezza@altavista.net Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 Wayne wrote: > >From: Dan Zinngrabe > >There are lots of ways to do it, but you're almost certainly going to > >lose whatever equipment you bring on site, and may face criminal > >charges regardless. Not a cheap photo, eh? > > > >Dan > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > well,dan,i guess i'll just have to go to terraserver and view the satellite > view of "groom dry lake AFB".after all, it's free! > > > wayne d.binkley Have you been able to access it? I haven't been able to get to it all day. There was an article on the SF Chronicle web page that terraserver.com was being heavily hacked. George - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Get your free email from AltaVista at http://altavista.iname.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:54:25 +0100 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 I haven't been able to access it either. Conspiracy? :) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "skunk-works" Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 9:08 PM Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 > Wayne wrote: > > > >From: Dan Zinngrabe > > >There are lots of ways to do it, but you're almost certainly going to > > >lose whatever equipment you bring on site, and may face criminal > > >charges regardless. Not a cheap photo, eh? > > > > > >Dan > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > well,dan,i guess i'll just have to go to terraserver and view the satellite > > view of "groom dry lake AFB".after all, it's free! > > > > > > wayne d.binkley > > Have you been able to access it? I haven't been able to get to it all day. > > There was an article on the SF Chronicle web page that terraserver.com was being heavily hacked. > > George > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Get your free email from AltaVista at http://altavista.iname.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:57:21 -0400 (EDT) From: george.allegrezza@altavista.net Subject: Chalk up another X-plane AviationNow says the Boeing/DARPA UCAV prototype will be given the X-45A designation. George - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Get your free email from AltaVista at http://altavista.iname.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:28:51 -0500 From: "Tom C Robison" Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 There was an article on the SF Chronicle web page that terraserver.com was being heavily hacked. Gee, I wonder who would do such a thing... Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:37:03 -0500 From: "Dave Bethke" Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 - ----- Original Message ----- From: Gavin Payne > I haven't been able to access it either. > > Conspiracy? :) Probably just server overload and a little hacking from those trying to download the images for free. I was able to access it Monday (04/17) night, before the story broke on TV and the papers. The pictures were good, but resolution-wise not any better than some older ones. They say '2 meter' resolution at the most zoomed in range. Of course they're very interesting since it's been over 6 years since the last satellite images that are available to the public. One drawback is that a browser plug-in is needed to view the pictures. It's called CleverContent. I won't mention some of the things I was calling it as it kept hanging my computer every 10 or 15 minutes. Some things noted: The second runway is complete and well used as the streaks of rubber at the touchdown points indicate. Any over-run onto the lake bed is barely visible. The first long runway's over run area into the lake seems much less pronounce than in previous images. I also looked at some of their views of Las Vegas, particularly McCarran field. The image was dated as March 14, 2000, a Tuesday, and from the shadows I would guess about 1:00pm. There were 6 737s on the Janet ramp, and the parking lot was almost empty! Hmmmm............. - -- Dave Bethke ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:02:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Sam Kaltsidis Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 > Wayne wrote: > > > >From: Dan Zinngrabe > > >There are lots of ways to do it, but you're almost certainly going to > > >lose whatever equipment you bring on site, and may face criminal > > >charges regardless. Not a cheap photo, eh? > > > > > >Dan > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > well,dan,i guess i'll just have to go to terraserver and view the satellite > > view of "groom dry lake AFB".after all, it's free! > > > > > > wayne d.binkley > > Have you been able to access it? I haven't been able to get to it all day. > > There was an article on the SF Chronicle web page that terraserver.com was being heavily hacked. > > George I haven't been able to get to it either. Their web server appears to be down. I cannot determine why it is down. I don't know if they have been hacked, it is possible, however it is also possible they were flooded with so many requests recently (either legitimate of illegitimate [Denial of Service Attack - DOS]) that they couldn't handle them. It is also possible, though unlikely, that their server experienced a failure and is down for maintenance. Sam CIO - Dark Entertainment LLC http://www.darkent.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:15:17 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Government incompetence At 10:23 AM 04/18/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Dan wrote: > > > > > The F-117 was captured on film hundreds of times before it was > > revealed to the public. Some of the photos weren't recognized for > > what they were, others were left unpubished, some film was seized by > > the FBI or AF after the fact. ~~~snip~~~ > > > Keeping a lid on a classified flight test program is > > whole orders of magnitude more difficult, as any way you slice it, it > > *will* fly over or around populated areas at some point, not matter > > how much public land the US decides to take away. The Nellis range > > may be large indeed, but it soon feels tiny when testing programs for > > things like Tier 3 and the F-117 are conducted there. F-117 pilots > > have publically stated that they regularly flew training missions to > > administraively attack targets on Lake Tahoe, which is a far cry from > > a restricted military reservation. > > Lets not be too harsh with the F-117 program. While they were building planes and testing at Groom it appears to have been a very well kept secret. Of course there was no where near the focus in these areas as we are use to seeing today. And when they were forced to move to Tonopah due to the size of the program and need for an operational base capable of supporting 50+ aircraft, it too was a matter of time before the secret came to an end. Many residents of Tonopah, NV were employed at TTR. Contractors were living in town, eating at restaurants and socializing at the local casino. Night flight ops became themselves a burden. And pilots were becoming physically fatigued flying to and from Las Vegas on JANET flights twice a week and then trying to sortie as often as possible and only at night. The second flight beginning after midnight and ending just before dawn. Ross Mulhare's crash is partly attributed to fatigue. It was beneficial to establish daytime flights for various reason---more flying hours available, new pilot introduction, test hops for maintenance work, etc. So it wasn't as much as a secret as it was just not well publicized that one could go to the fence line at TTR and observe these new airplanes. Course it didn't help that an F-117 flew over the parade to salute the town on Miner's Days, the local festival in Tonopah. But by that time Jim Goodall and Byron Augenbaugh had enough photographs that there was little point in denying the program any longer. The AF may have welcomed this as much as anyone. patrick cullumber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:30:45 -0700 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 >>From: Dan Zinngrabe >>There are lots of ways to do it, but you're almost certainly going to >>lose whatever equipment you bring on site, and may face criminal >>charges regardless. Not a cheap photo, eh? >> >>Dan > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >well,dan,i guess i'll just have to go to terraserver and view the >satellite view of "groom dry lake AFB".after all, it's free! > > >wayne d.binkley > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ? And there have been a number of significantly more information-rich photos and datasets of Groom freely available for quite some time. Not to mention a very nice Soviet overhead photo available from ufomind.com as a poster. The standing international law on satellite photography prevents the Air Force from doing anything about it short of using their Scoot-n-Hide shelters. The overheads available don't tell you much at all, even if you do have some expereince with photographic interpretation. Ground based photos available on the internet tell you much, much more about what's going on at Groom. And good luck at Microsoft's Terraserver, it's been very unavailable all day. www.fas.org is a better bet, and includes some analysis (sadly, things that have been covered on the list before, as the shot shows nothing new or notable). Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Have you exported RSA today? print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0 Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 >Wayne wrote: > >> >From: Dan Zinngrabe >> >There are lots of ways to do it, but you're almost certainly going to >> >lose whatever equipment you bring on site, and may face criminal >> >charges regardless. Not a cheap photo, eh? >> > >> >Dan >> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> well,dan,i guess i'll just have to go to terraserver and view the satellite >> view of "groom dry lake AFB".after all, it's free! >> >> >> wayne d.binkley > >Have you been able to access it? I haven't been able to get to it all day. > >There was an article on the SF Chronicle web page that >terraserver.com was being heavily hacked. > >George > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Get your free email from AltaVista at http://altavista.iname.com I could go into a long, involved story about the "slashdot effect", but... To put it simply, the site is being very popular with computer geeks like myself following the link from www.slashdot.org. I talked to someone else on Terraserver's upstream provider and they confirmed that. So, no conspiracy, though a good way "CleverContent" to up their installed user base figures, and for Microsoft to demonstrate how "scalable" their serving solutions are ;) Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ The software you were born with helps you write code into the wee small hours, find the bugs in your competitors' products, and create fake demos for the first six months of a project. It deserves the operating system designed to work with it: the MacOS. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:01:02 -0500 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: Re: now on terraserver:Area 51 > Probably just server overload and a little hacking from those trying to download the images for > free. Likely so; I just tried to connect via the link from FAS, and got a "too many users trying to connect" message. FAS has done a major rework of its A51 page, which may be enjoyed at http://www.fas.org/irp/overhead/groom.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:23:32 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: Hackers Attack TerraServer [Area 51 images] < http://dallasnews.com/national/65920_AREA18.html > Excerpt (Yes, that is an 18 in the URL. Beto.) "The site is being hammered, and hackers are attacking it," Hoffman said. He said there were signs of hackers trying to penetrate the site's firewall, the software designed to prevent unauthorized outsiders from tampering with computer files. They couldn't reach the data, but they were able to slow the system, Hoffman said. He noted that the Area 51 photos had attracted an estimated 3 million "page views'' to the Web site since Monday morning, compared with the normal usage of 700,000 to 800,000 per day. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:06:15 -0500 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: Diagonal runway on Groom Lake On the 1998-03-15 satellite picture of Groom Lake at http://www.fas.org/irp/overhead/a51-980315-1_2.htm there's a longish runway running across the middle of the lake, approximately in the 290-110 degree direction. It looks kind of old and washed out, but it's quite distinct and I haven't been able to find it on other GL pix. Comments? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:55:31 -0700 From: Dan Zinngrabe Subject: Re: Diagonal runway on Groom Lake >On the 1998-03-15 satellite picture of Groom Lake at >http://www.fas.org/irp/overhead/a51-980315-1_2.htm >there's a longish runway running across the middle of the lake, >approximately in the 290-110 degree direction. It looks kind of old and >washed out, but it's quite distinct and I haven't been able to find it on >other GL pix. > >Comments? It's the original runway for the 1940s, when Groom was used as a target range. DOE has some very good information from their testing program that maps Groom during this period: Dan _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ The software you were born with helps you write code into the wee small hours, find the bugs in your competitors' products, and create fake demos for the first six months of a project. It deserves the operating system designed to work with it: the MacOS. _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:48:11 -0700 From: Timothy Toth Subject: acquired aircraft Mig-29 and SU-27 The USA has (at least) 21 Mig-29. These 6 Mig-29A , 1Mig-29B and 14 Mig-29C's where acquired from Moldova a few years ago, officially to stop the Iranians from acquiring them. What is interseting is that Moldova is part of the so-called GUUAM group (Georgia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Azerbaidjan and Moldova). This reunion of ex-Soviet states was created to give them a better chance at facing Russian pressure. Most of these countries are in a difficult geo-pollitical situation, depending heavely on Russia for energy supplies or for economical reasons but they definetly lean , albeit 'discretely', towards the west. Some have even expressed their willingness to become part of NATO and/or the EU. Last week they just received a few extra millions from the states to reinforce the GUUAM structure. The interesting part is that Ukraine and Uzbekistan both have SU-27. I was not able to find how Uzbekistan is doing with it's 'regiment' of SU-27P and UB, but Ukraine's SU-27 have gone down from 67 in 1992 to 40 (in 95?). 27 out of 67 aicraft missing is suspicious even if you take into account attrition and possible canibalization for parts. Could some of these be in the US? with what designation? Timothy ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V9 #33 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner