From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V9 #48 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Wednesday, July 5 2000 Volume 09 : Number 048 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** Re: EB-52 and B-2 review...extravagent? Re:No Title A-12 4th of july(ragged old flag) Northrop XST photo Re: Northrop XST photo Re: Northrop XST photo FWD (TLC-Mission) Reunion - Secret War in Laos FWD (TLCB) Civilian use of military aircraft [was - Warbirds] *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:35:14 -0700 From: Timothy Toth Subject: Re: EB-52 and B-2 review...extravagent? Gavin Payne wrote: >One question though, now that the B-2 is now at block 30 what changes were made to each level? I read that all the operational fleet are now block 30. What needed to be done to an already perfect airframe?! Originally there where 6 test aircraft, 10 Block 10, 3 Block 20 and 2 block 30 and as you mention they should now all be in the Block 30 config. This means that even as construction was going on, defaults where being corrected and improvements implemented. There is always room for improvement and this is not limited to the airframe, the only limit is when it becomes way too expensive compared to the advantage that the upgrade would give, when the airframe is too old (and a replacement is ready to become operational) or when there is no more physical room left on the aircraft to add gadgets. The aircraft will keep being upgraded throughout their lifetime, and most of these upgrades we probably won't even hear of. Officially Block 10 where limited to conventional bombs or gravity nuclear weapons. Block 20 could carry a wider range of conventional 'dumb' bombs/dispensers and the GAM. Block 30 have almost double the radar modes compared to Block 20, can carry an even wider range of weapon including JDAM and JSOW. The RF signature has been 'corrected to conform to the approved radar signature', installation of remaining defensive avionics functions; and installation of a contrail management system. Improvements will still need be neede as new weapon or newer versions of existing weapons become operational. Improvements to the maintainability/reliability (cf F-117 SCF) have already been made, but this can probably get even better. Up to now the low availability situation was acceptable because, that was the price to pay to have a good stealth aircraft, but new techniques mean they have been able to greatly enhance maintainability of stealth aircraft. There is also the fact that the B-2 i an important political asset/tool, there is a real need to evaluate possible threats (such as the Chinese PCL) and develop defences against these. Can you imagine what would happen to the the image of the US and of it's enemy if a B-2 was shot down! The B-2 has replaced the F-117 (and luckely had already replaced it for some time when the F-117 was brought down) as the US representative of the US technological superiority, there can be no respite in making sure that it has everything it needs to defeat the enemy, but more importantly, to survive ! Timothy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:45:49 -0700 From: Timothy Toth Subject: Re:No Title Gavin Payne wrote: >Something one of the F-117 pilots told me at Air Fete 00 is that the life expectency of the type is estimated to be around 10 years. >Apparently as there's no two seater models, they can't take congressmen up with them and wow them! They said and I quote so >don't flame or argue with me!, that this is what happened with the A-12. Unless the men who control the pockets actually >experience it all at first hand they're not intersted. >Dont know if its all true but thats what all the F117 crew think these days. Yes I think that provision for a third seat in the B-2 was made so that in around 2010 they can add this third seat to start flying congressmen around... and maybe that 'secret taped over button' on the B-2, is an eject congressman button, just in case some prove to be a bit too reluctant to give it a vote of confidence in 10 years... :-) Timothy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:35:11 +0800 From: "James P. Stevenson" Subject: A-12 Gavin Payne wrote: > Something one of the F-117 pilots told me at Air Fete 00 is that the life > expectency of the type is estimated to be around 10 years. Apparently as > there's no two seater models, they can't take congressmen up with them and > wow them! They said and I quote so don't flame or argue with me!, that this > is what happened with the A-12. Unless the men who control the pockets > actually experience it all at first hand they're not intersted. I'm not sure what you meant by "this is what happened with the A-12," but I can assure you that the A-12, if you are talking about the Navy version, was not cancelled because of the lack of anyone taking a ride in it. Jim Stevenson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:46:17 PDT From: "wayne binkley" Subject: 4th of july(ragged old flag)

"That Ragged Old Flag"

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Western Art by Pat Baker

 

I walked through a county courthouse square

On a park bench, an old man was sittin there.

I said, "Your court house is kinda run down,

He said, "No, it will do for our little town".

I said "your old flag pole kinda leaned a little bit,

And that’s a ragged old flag you got hanging on it".

He said "have a seat", so I sat down,

He said, "is this your first visit to our little town"

I said, "I think it is"

He said "I don’t like to brag, but we’re kinda proud of

"That Ragged Old Flag"

"You see, we got a little hole in that flag there,

When Washington took it across the Delaware.

It got powder burned the night Francis Scott Key sat watching it, writing

"Oh Say Can You See"

It got a rip in New Orleans, with Packingham & Jackson

tugging at its seams.

It almost fell at the Alamo beside the Texas flag,

But she waved on tho.

It got cut with a sword in Chancellorsville,

Got cut again at Shiloh Hill.

There was Robert E. Lee and Beauregard and Bragg,

And the south wind blew hard on

"That Ragged Old Flag"

On Flanders Field in World War I,

She took a bad hit from a Bertha Gun,

She turned blood red in World War II

She hung limp and low by the time that one was through,

She was in Korea, Vietnam, She went where she was sent

by her Uncle Sam.

The Native Americans, The Black, Yellow and White

All shed red blood for the Stars and Stripes.

And here in her own good land,

She’s been abused, burned, dishonored, denied and refused,

And the very government for which she stands

Has been scandalized throughout out the land.

And she’s getting thread bare, and she’s wearing kinda thin,

But she’s in pretty good shape, for the shape she’s in.

Cause she’s been through the fire before

and she can take a whole lot more.

So we raise her up every morning

And we bring her down slow every night,

We don’t let her touch the ground,

And we fold her up right.

On second thought
I do like to brag

Cause I’m mighty proud of

"That Ragged Old Flag"

Written by Johnny Cash

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All rights reserved.
Revised: 24 Jun 2000 14:40:46 -0600

 

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------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:12:41 -0400 From: Jeff Clark Subject: Northrop XST photo A long time ago, on the Skunk works list there was a discussion about the only picture of the Northrop XST that was in a paper Irv Waaland of Northrop presented at an AIAA conference. Well, I was searching through my company's library computer last week, and they had a copy. So I now have a scanned copy of the photo of the XST being placed on an RCS test pole. I haven't seen this around the net anywhere, so is anyone interested in this? I don't have a web page, so if there's a bunch of people asking, I can post it to a Usenet image newsgroup. I should warn you though, the original picture was just a few inches square and in black&white, so it doesn't look great. Jeff Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:53:36 -0700 From: patrick Subject: Re: Northrop XST photo At 06/30/2000 -0400, you wrote: >A long time ago, on the Skunk works list there was a >discussion about the only picture of the Northrop XST >that was in a paper Irv Waaland of Northrop presented >at an AIAA conference. Well, I was searching through >my company's library computer last week, and they >had a copy. So I now have a scanned copy of the >photo of the XST being placed on an RCS test pole. >I haven't seen this around the net anywhere, so >is anyone interested in this? I don't have a web >page, so if there's a bunch of people asking, I can >post it to a Usenet image newsgroup. I should warn >you though, the original picture was just a few inches >square and in black&white, so it doesn't look great. > > >Jeff Clark > >______________________________________________________________ The photo is interesting as it shows the difference from the drawing published in Av Week. The actual XST was more of a diamond planform rather than the delta shown in the drawing. And the large dorsal mounted air inlet (covered with mesh screen) was set much further back than the drawing indicates. Walland submitted another photo that was used on the cover of the report proceedings. Northrop claims the original photo was lost in the big earthquake that struck LA a few years ago. Hope you can post the pic Jeff, thanks. patrick cullumber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:26:49 -0400 From: Jeff Clark Subject: Re: Northrop XST photo I am posting two pictures into the newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.aviation. The first image has both of the Northrop XST pictures in Irv Waaland's paper (the artist's left-side perspective view and the radar model being placed on a test range pole) The second image is a closeup of the picture of the radar model on the pole. That was it for the copy I have. Patrick Cullumber mentioned the cover of the report proceedings has another photo, but I don't have that. I'll try to look for it though. If anyone misses the pictures, let me know after a few days and I'll mail them to you. Note that I'll be using jhclark@adelphia.net to post/mail the images. Jeff Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:24:26 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (TLC-Mission) Reunion - Secret War in Laos John Diedrich did a great job on the article he wrote for the Gazette. You can read it online at < http://www.gazette.com/daily/loc4.html > but I've gone ahead a copied in the text below. You don't get the nice picture of Joe Wilson standing in front of John Loftus's EC-121 on static display at Peterson AFB. The caption of that picture in the newspaper is: Joe Wilson, a member of the Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood, stands Monday beside an EC-121 Connie at Peterson Air Force Base that was used for electronic surveillance in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. If you like what you read below, how about sending John Diedrich a short note to say so (and maybe copy me at JimmieTLC@aol.com). I told John there were between 200 and 300 of us. We won't all be here this weekend, but it would be neat for John to hear from many spread all across the US and from our contingent in SEA. Here's John's e-mail address: diedrich@gazette.com Anyway, this is a good step forward. I don't know how other newspapers pick up each others stories, but you might give the reference to your local newspaper. Maybe they'd do a story on you and your experiences on returning home and what you've found since joining the TLC Brotherhood. Read and be proud of what we have accomplished and what we are accomplishing. Jimmie H. Butler Nail 12 NKP Feb 67 - Jan 68 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Veterans of 'secret war' reunite By John Diedrich/The Gazette In 1970, Joe Wilson came home from the war in Southeast Asia to a hostile America. Wilson, an Army specialist who drove trucks in Thailand to support the U.S. effort, joined his hometown chapter of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Boise, looking for a place to fit in. He didn't. The veterans Wilson met at the Boise VFW didn't know about the "secret war" the United States was waging in Laos and Cambodia from Thailand. The U.S. government wasn't acknowledging it was fighting outside Vietnam, fearing the political implications of an expanding combat operations. Some of the Vietnam veterans treated Wilson as if he were a second-class vet because he wasn't "in country." "The reception was very cold. It didn't take me long and I just didn't go anymore," said the 50-year-old Colorado Springs resident. "They didn't appreciate me or want me around." Now there is a group for Wilson and veterans like him, and it's holding a reunion in Colorado Springs this weekend. The Thailand-Laos-Cambodia (TLC) Brotherhood isn't made up of soldiers who served in the same unit or even the same service. Rather the brotherhood brings together soldiers, pilots and sailors who performed vital but little known missions. "It makes you proud to have been part of that," Wilson said. Jimmie Butler, a 1963 Air Force Academy graduate, is one of the founders of the TLC Brotherhood. He arrived at Nakhom Phanom Air Force Base in Thailand in 1967. His mission: fly single-engine Cessna airplanes over the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos, spotting North Vietnamese resupply trucks for bombers and jets to destroy. It was dangerous work. Nicknamed "bird dogs," the Cessnas flew at 6,000 feet at a pokey 80 knots per hour as anti-aircraft gunners watched for them from the ground. "The wheels didn't come up and the windows were open," said Butler, 58, of Colorado Springs. "It was sort of strange to go into war like that." The planes carried no weapons, only four phosphorus rockets to mark targets. Butler carried an M-16 rifle, a .38-caliber pistol and lots of ammunition. The planes were painted black for night flying and didn't have the usual Air Force markings. Several times, Butler encountered the enemy. In one stretch, he had close calls five out of eight days. "Looking back, I should have been more afraid than I was," he said. Butler understood his role, but the covert nature of his work kept him from talking about it. And Butler suspects that others who served in the "secret war" didn't fully realize their contributions. "They were a big part of it. They didn't understand how important their work was and it never occurred to me that they didn't know that," he said. Butler served 24 years in the Air Force. After leaving the service, he became an author. His fictionalized account of his and other veterans' experiences in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia, titled "A Certain Brotherhood," led to the formation of the group three years ago. "Right away this was a brotherhood," Butler said. "These are people you never met but you feel like you already know." The group began supporting an orphanage in Thare, Thailand. To date, members have raised $17,000 for children there and other charities. For Wilson, the TLC Brotherhood has brought him closer to the fraternity of men and women who share the bond of combat service. For the first time last year, Wilson marched in the Veterans Day parade in downtown Colorado Springs. "Prior to that, Veterans Day didn't have meaning for me. It was for heroes and heroic things, but the stigma of being in Thailand didn't allow me participate. Even now there are so many who haven't gotten past that," he said. "This is a story that hasn't been told." If you go What: Memorial Service to honor troops who served in Thailand, Laos and/or Cambodia during the Vietnam War When: 10 a.m. Saturday [4 July 2000] Where: Air Force Academy Cadet Chapel followed by a ceremony at the academy cemetery at 11 a.m. Who: The public is encouraged to attend. Information: If you have a loved one you want honored or want more information, contact Jimmie Butler by calling 528-5978 or e-mail jimmiehb@aol.com. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 22:22:42 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (TLCB) Civilian use of military aircraft [was - Warbirds] A number of the restored warbirds we see at airshows today were formerly used as firefighters in Canada and the U.S. Today there are still quite a few fighting fires decades after they were built and served in military units. The July 2000 issue of "Warbird" magazine published by EAA's Warbirds of America has an article about these fire fighters along with other cargo types that are still soldiering on. Here are some excerpts of that article: Forest fire fighting in the United States and Canada employs over 140 classic warbird aircraft. In this line of work, there are approximately the following numbers of aircraft in use today: 18 Douglas A-26 Invaders, five Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateers (ex USN and USCG single-tail versions of the B-24), two Martin JRM-3 Mars, eight Consolidated PBY Catalinas or Canadian Cansos, eight Douglas C-54/DC-4s, three Grumman TBM Avengers, two Lockheed PV-2 Harpoons, one Boeing C-97, 37 Grumman S-2 Trackers, 15 Lockheed P-2 Neptunes, 11 Lockheed P-3 Orions/L188 Electras, eight Lockheed C-130 Hurcules, eight Douglas C-118/DC-6s, three Douglas DC-7s. In addition, a large number of Cessna O-2 Skymasters and OV-10 Broncos are used as lead planes to guide the firebombers to the desired drop point in front of or on the fire. In the United Sates, fire fighting aircraft are hired by a number of agencies, including the United States Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, and by individual state agencies such as the California Department of Forestry. Some very historic aircraft still operate in working roles. A Douglas C-54, operated as a firebomber by TBM Inc., was the personal transport for Admiral Chester Nimitz in WWII. It is Tanker 65, N8502R. The Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, Texas, reportedly wants to provide a retirement home for the aircraft when its forest fire fighting days are over. Dry cargo hauling also employs a large number of heavy warbird aircraft. The most common type in service is probably the DC-3/C-47/R4D, but it is very difficult to determine the number that still carry cargo for hire. Alaska is probably the place to see the largest number of operational vintage types employed in this activity. In Anchorage, Northern Air Cargo still operates approximately 17 Douglas C-118/DC-6 types, including a former Howard Hughes aircraft. NAC hauls cargo of all descriptions, including cars and trucks, in their swing tail DC-6s to communities all over Alaska, and even to countries of the former Soviet Union. Other ex-military types that are dry cargo carriers include about six Curtiss C-46s plus larger numbers of the Convair C-131, T-29 and their civil versions, de Havilland C-7 Caribou, Beech C-45, and Douglas C-54. Petroleum hauling is mostly carried out in Alaska and Canada. Everts Air Fuel still operates four C-46 Commandos plus a number of C-118/DC-6 aircraft in this role. If you love the C-46, a trip to Fairbanks, the home base of Everts, will enable you to see no fewer than eight of these aircraft, including their stored spare airframes. Fish haulers are a very ineresting class of aircraft. These aircraft carry freshly caught salmon to the processing plants. This activity is much less than it used to be, for a number of the fish plants now actually process their catch while still on the ship. Until recently, Grace Aire operated it's C-97 nearly every summer there, and that aircraft even made an appearance at Oshkosh a few years ago. It is now retired and with the Berlin Airlift Historical Society, along with their beautifully restored C-54. Keep 'em Flying, Rich Kruse - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V9 #48 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner