From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V9 #87 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Thursday, December 21 2000 Volume 09 : Number 087 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: P-59, gorilla. RE: P-59, gorilla. Smashing paradigms RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Re: New Mil-Air Triangle Report On Line! Re: P-59, gorilla. Re: P-59, gorilla. RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Fl orida. RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Re: Smashing paradigms *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:31:33 -0500 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: P-59, gorilla. This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06AD5.2EA54DDC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sounds wild enough to be true.... since pilots do stuff like that all the time.... - -----Original Message----- From: Allen Thomson [mailto:thomsona@flash.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 05:19 PM To: Skunk Works Subject: P-59, gorilla. Just found this on AvWeek's www.aviationnow.com page: Bell P-59 Secret Jet Program During the Bell P-59 jet aircraft test program [early-mid 1940s, http://www.afa.org/magazine/gallery/p-59.html], a formation of P-38 Lightnings on a training mission over the Mojave Desert was overtaken by an Airacomet. The P-38 pilots were puzzled when they saw the plane with no propeller. Stranger still, the Bell P-59 Airacomet pilot was wearing a gorilla mask and derby hat and had a cigar in his mouth. After a few seconds, the jet pilot tipped his hat politely and pulled away from the formation. This was the first time that Air Force personnel, except for a select few at the test base, had ever seen a jet-propelled airplane. The sight of the gorilla wearing a derby and smoking a cigar helped keep the jet a secret. This has "apocryphal" written all over it, but does anyone here happen to know where the story comes from? Even if, by wild chance, it's true? - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06AD5.2EA54DDC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: P-59, gorilla.

Sounds wild enough to be true....  since pilots = do stuff like that all the time....

-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Thomson [mailto:thomsona@flash.net]=
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 05:19 PM
To: Skunk Works
Subject: P-59, gorilla.



Just found this on AvWeek's www.aviationnow.com = page:

  Bell P-59 Secret Jet Program

  During the Bell P-59 jet aircraft test = program
  [early-mid 1940s, http://www.afa.org/magazine/gallery/p-59.html],
  a formation of  P-38 Lightnings on a = training mission over the Mojave
Desert was
  overtaken by an Airacomet. The P-38 pilots = were puzzled when they saw the
plane
  with  no   propeller.  = Stranger still, the  Bell P-59  Airacomet  pilot
was wearing a
  gorilla mask and derby hat and  had a = cigar in his mouth.  After a few
seconds, the
  jet pilot  tipped his hat politely and = pulled away from the formation.
This was the
  first time that Air Force personnel, except = for a select few at the test
base, had
  ever seen a jet-propelled airplane.  The = sight of the gorilla wearing a
derby and
  smoking a cigar helped keep the jet a = secret.

This has "apocryphal" written all over it, = but does anyone here happen to
know
where the story comes from?  Even if, by wild = chance, it's true?



- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06AD5.2EA54DDC-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:53:55 -0500 From: John Szalay Subject: RE: P-59, gorilla. At 05:31 PM 12/20/00 -0500, you wrote: > since pilots do stuff like that all the time.... -----Original >Message----- > I always liked the story/cartoon that appeared in the AirForce magazine called "And There I was" One of the cartoons showed the pilot doing a test hop with a P-38 over Rodgers dry lake test range, and pulls up near a strange looking plane and decided to have a little fun, so he went to full power and tried to pull away whereas the "strange plane" proceded to put on HIS power and pulled away and kept on going. The pilot then checked and found out that he had picked on one of Jack Northups flying wing prototypes. He said that he had then seen a glimpse of the future. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:15:42 -0800 From: David Lednicer Subject: Smashing paradigms Al Dobyns referred to Kelly Johnson's expertise in designing airplanes and this brought up an issue that needs to be discussed. I work as an aeronautical engineer and have had the opportunity to brush up against Kelly Johnson's legacy numerous times. I've done work with the Skunk Works and have a lot of friends who work there. I've also been inside both the Burbank and Palmdale facilities. I even met Kelly Johnson, along with Willis Hawkins and Ben Rich, back in 1978 and have a picture to prove it. Lately, I've been working with Dick Scherrer, who did the preliminary design of the S-3, Have Blue and the B-2 and he has provided me with additional insights. Kelly Johnson was primarily a manager and a very good manager at that. As a manager, he was really good at was keeping bureacrats and accountants from messing with his programs. Personally, this is what I respect him most for. Today, trying to accomplish this is all but impossible. Part of the reason I work at a small company is to try and avoid having to deal with these people. Unusually for a manager, he also did conceptual and preliminary design. I have copies of portions of his design notebook that show he was laying out the Archangel series that culminated in the A-12 himself. Not to take away from his legacy, but people should realize that he had engineers working for him who did the detailed design and flight testing work. These people included Irv Culver, Ben Rich, Rudy Thorne, Dick Heppe, Dick Abrams, Dick Statler, etc. In the early days, he did a lot of the engineering work himself (such as on the model 10 Electra, P-38 and P-80), but as the designs increased in complexity and the Skunk Works increased in importance to Lockheed, he became more of a manager. Decisions, such as to put in the wedge to change the SR-71's trim attitude likely came from wind tunnel testing and engineering analysis, but he then made the decision to actually make the change to the flight hardware. The bottom line - yes, he was good, but don't deify him! Personally, I think the people that designed the DH-106 Comet and Boeing 707 and 747 should get equal credit. The DH engineers pioneered a lot of the engineering that is now standard on airliners. The Boeing engineers designed some damn good airplanes that have stood the test of time and made the company a profit - something that few other commercial aircraft can claim. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (425) 643-9090 Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (425) 746-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:35:10 -0800 (PST) From: Wei-Jen Su Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. First, thanks a lot to the list for the replay. So, right now, there are three main theories that can explain the aurora over Area 51. 1) Natural weather phenomenon. Which is probable but I think is highly unlikely since by "coincidence" is localize over Area 51. 2) Contrail left by rocket exhaust. It is more probable but I don't think this is the case due to the shape of the aurora cloud. 3) John Szalay suggested that it was probably Barium cloud. I think this is the most probable explanation. John, would you please let the list know what the Barium cloud are used for and why the personal at Area 51 used it even though they know is going to be a "airshow" display?!?! Do you believe that NOTAM will post anything for flyers about classified aircraft or rocket launch even in a restricted airspace area? This discussion is becoming more like how Scully and Murder will explain strange phenomenon :) Again, thanks a lot for everybody replays and happy holidays! May the Force be with you Wei-Jen Su E-mail: wsu@its.caltech.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ " From knowing himself and knowing his airplane so well that he can come somewhere close to touching, in his own special and solitary way, that thing that is called perfection." Richard Bach, 'A Gift of Wings' On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, John Szalay wrote: > At 08:44 AM 12/19/00 -0800, you wrote: > >John Szalay wrote in part: > > > NOTAM = Notice To Airmen: Offical notices to flyers concerning special > instructions or announcements of area closings > or events that may or could effect the area they > may want to fly in or through. > > Barium cloud are releases of Barium or special particals into the air by > rocket > at different altitudes for various measurments. can be done at any time, but > normaly done at sunset OR at night to produce visible cloads of light. > Rather nice to watch. IF you know when and where. Most take place at > Wallops island > or White Sands. but are not restricted to just those areas. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:37:24 -0800 (PST) From: Wei-Jen Su Subject: Re: New Mil-Air Triangle Report On Line! On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 SecretJet@aol.com wrote: > http://members.aol.com/BlackTriangles/BelizeTriangleReport2.html > > BelizeTriangleReport Nice drawings! Looks to me more like a classified Stealth UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) or a UCAV (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle). I would probably think is more like a UCAV due to its size. May the Force be with you Wei-Jen Su E-mail: wsu@its.caltech.edu - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ " From knowing himself and knowing his airplane so well that he can come somewhere close to touching, in his own special and solitary way, that thing that is called perfection." Richard Bach, 'A Gift of Wings' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:48:03 +0100 From: Andreas Parsch Subject: Re: P-59, gorilla. Allen Thomson wrote: > > Just found this on AvWeek's www.aviationnow.com page: > > Bell P-59 Secret Jet Program > > During the Bell P-59 jet aircraft test program > [early-mid 1940s, http://www.afa.org/magazine/gallery/p-59.html], > a formation of P-38 Lightnings on a training mission over the > Mojave Desert was overtaken by an Airacomet. The P-38 pilots were > puzzled when they saw the plane with no propeller. Stranger > still, the Bell P-59 Airacomet pilot was wearing a gorilla mask > and derby hat and had a cigar in his mouth. After a few seconds, > the jet pilot tipped his hat politely and pulled away from the > formation. > This was the first time that Air Force personnel, except for a > select few at the test base, had ever seen a jet-propelled airplane. > The sight of the gorilla wearing a derby and smoking a cigar helped > keep the jet a secret. > > This has "apocryphal" written all over it, but does anyone here happen > to know where the story comes from? Even if, by wild chance, it's > true? Hello, I remember reading the story, and I think (not 100% sure) I found it in Curtiss Peebles' "Dark Eagles". I will check that later and, if it's indeed in Peebles' book, will see if Peebles gives a source for the story. Andreas - -- US Military Aviation Designation Systems http://www.andreas-parsch.online.de ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:26:34 -0500 (EST) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Re: P-59, gorilla. The story is essentially true, if you believe Doug Nelson, the AFFTC (Air Force Flight Test Center) Historian. I have seen (several) videos about Edwards, black programs, test flights, X-planes, early jets, etc., that include the story (or some version of it). Some include actual footage of the Gorilla mask, which I believe is now in the AFFTC museum at Edwards. Maybe Peter Merlin can clarify this? - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: GPahl@wazoo.com 1517 Michigan Avenue or: Andreas@Aerospace-History.net Alamogordo, NM 88310 Web Site: http://www.wazoo.com/~gpahl/ Tel: (505) 434-6276 or: http://www.Aerospace-History.net - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:40:58 -0500 From: John Szalay Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. >3) John Szalay suggested that it was probably Barium cloud. I think this >is the most probable explanation. John, would you please let the list know >what the Barium cloud are used for and why the personal at Area 51 used it >even though they know is going to be a "airshow" display?!?! >of Wings' > Pictures And why a barium release. http://www.qsl.net/w7ftt/barium1.html http://www.kg4ahb.com/marlind/n4mqu.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:40:33 -0500 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Fl orida. This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06B5C.9867B2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've seen references here before to barium clouds, but I always figured that I would look it up at a future date.... Thanks to John, now's that day.... Interesting stuff!! Thanks John Greg W - -----Original Message----- From: John Szalay [mailto:john.szalay@postoffice.worldnet.att.net] Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 09:41 AM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. >3) John Szalay suggested that it was probably Barium cloud. I think this >is the most probable explanation. John, would you please let the list know >what the Barium cloud are used for and why the personal at Area 51 used it >even though they know is going to be a "airshow" display?!?! >of Wings' > Pictures And why a barium release. http://www.qsl.net/w7ftt/barium1.html http://www.kg4ahb.com/marlind/n4mqu.htm - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06B5C.9867B2F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and = Florida.

I've seen references here before to barium clouds, = but I always figured that I would look it up at a future = date....

Thanks to John, now's that day....   = Interesting stuff!!

Thanks John

Greg W

-----Original Message-----
From: John Szalay [mailto:john.szal= ay@postoffice.worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 09:41 AM
To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com
Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far = south as Texas and
Florida.


>3) John Szalay suggested that it was probably = Barium cloud. I think this
>is the most probable explanation. John, would = you please let the list know
>what the Barium cloud are used for and why the = personal at Area 51 used it
>even though they know is going to be a = "airshow" display?!?!
>of Wings'
>

   Pictures And  why a barium = release. 

  http://www.qsl.net/w7ftt/barium1.html

  http://www.kg4ahb.com/marlind/n4mqu.htm

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06B5C.9867B2F0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:46:33 -0500 (EST) From: Kathryn & Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. Wei-Jen Su wrote: >First, thanks a lot to the list for the replay. So, right now, there are >three main theories that can explain the aurora over Area 51. >1) Natural weather phenomenon. Which is probable but I think is highly >unlikely since by "coincidence" is localize over Area 51. The main problem with the statements above (and the whole thread) is the fact that you assume that this was related to or located in the vicinity of Area 51 or Groom Lake. It could have been anywhere over the Nellis Test Range, or Tonopah, or Reno, or Lake Tahoe, or even Salt Lake City, Utah, or maybe even San Francisco, or Lompoc (Vandenberg AFB), California. There is no way that you could associate some colorful light display in the evening/night sky, seen from Las Vegas, Nevada, with any location what so ever. Even if the direction would be correct, how do you determine the distance? I am sorry, but this is all conjecture with no basis in reality. Maybe some live munition was exploded at one of the (much nearer) Gunnery Ranges? There are much more possible explanations, none which needs to include Area 51. - -- Andreas [who wishes Happy Holidays and a Great New Year to everyone!] - --- --- Andreas Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: GPahl@wazoo.com 1517 Michigan Avenue or: Andreas@Aerospace-History.net Alamogordo, NM 88310 Web Site: http://www.wazoo.com/~gpahl/ Tel: (505) 434-6276 or: http://www.Aerospace-History.net - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:10:16 -0500 From: John Szalay Subject: RE: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. At 10:35 PM 12/20/00 -0800, you wrote: > >First, thanks a lot to the list for the replay. So, right now, there are >three main theories that can explain the aurora over Area 51. > >Do you believe that NOTAM will post anything for flyers about classified >aircraft or rocket launch even in a restricted airspace area? > >This discussion is becoming more like how Scully and Murder will explain >strange phenomenon :) > > Yes to a certain extent, area's such as RANCH R4806E R4806W R4807A R4807B DESERT While NOTAM's for these areas are NOT available to the general public via the internet I,m sure that there are ways to find out. During the Atomic bomb tests over Johnston island during Operation Dominic , the test schedules were published, we made it a point back then to watch the airfield at Hickham to see what aircraft were coming and going, there is where I saw my first U-2. also got to see a nuclear blast too. Test shot Starfish Prime The information is out there, you just have to weed thru all the misinformation and rumors. And as to Scully & crew, IMHO: Hollywood is right where it belongs. IN THE LAND OF FRUITS AND NUTS ! I prefer to believe in FACTS.. Thank you . Have a Pleasent Holiday season! Whatever your beliefs ...... \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -----------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------- | | | john.szalay@att.net | | | ------------------Oooo.----------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:09:47 EST From: MELUMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. In a message dated 12/21/2000 7:41:21 AM Mountain Standard Time, john.szalay@postoffice.worldnet.att.net writes: > >3) John Szalay suggested that it was probably Barium cloud. I think this > >is the most probable explanation. John, would you please let the list know > >what the Barium cloud are used for and why the personal at Area 51 used it > >even though they know is going to be a "airshow" display?!?! > >of Wings' > > > > Pictures And why a barium release. > > http://www.qsl.net/w7ftt/barium1.html > > http://www.kg4ahb.com/marlind/n4mqu.htm _______________________________________ Green Barium cloud? Not likely! (More research needed!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:39:47 -0500 From: John Szalay Subject: Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. At 10:09 AM 12/21/00 EST, you wrote: >I >_______________________________________ > >Green Barium cloud? Not likely! (More research needed!) > > O.K. Done! http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wposion.html#barium ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:48:34 -0500 From: John Szalay Subject: Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. At 10:09 AM 12/21/00 EST, you wrote: >In > >Green Barium cloud? Not likely! (More research needed!) > > http://www.aspirations.com/Alaska_Science_Forum/The_Aurora/space_pyrotechnic s.htm " One of the objectives of the Poker Flat rocket shots has been to trace magnetic field lines of the earth by propelling barium metal vapor along them. The barium is ejected when the rocket is high enough so that it is in the sunlight and the earth below is in darkness. The vapor first disperses to form a bright yellow-green cloud about the size of a full moon. In a matter of seconds, it changes to a reddish-purple ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:48:59 EST From: MELUMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: display of aurora borealis seen as far south as Texas and Florida. In a message dated 12/21/2000 8:40:57 AM Mountain Standard Time, john.szalay@postoffice.worldnet.att.net writes: > >Green Barium cloud? Not likely! (More research needed!) > > > > > > O.K. Done! > > http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wposion.html#barium _____________________________ Experts wrong! The Green color is from the copper ion! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:44:48 -0600 From: "Albert H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: Smashing paradigms David Lednicer wrote: > > Al Dobyns referred to Kelly Johnson's expertise in designing airplanes and > this brought up an issue that needs to be discussed. > > I work as an aeronautical engineer and have had the opportunity to brush > up against Kelly Johnson's legacy numerous times. I've done work with the > Skunk Works and have a lot of friends who work there. I've also been > inside both the Burbank and Palmdale facilities. I even met Kelly > Johnson, along with Willis Hawkins and Ben Rich, back in 1978 and have a > picture to prove it. Lately, I've been working with Dick Scherrer, who > did the preliminary design of the S-3, Have Blue and the B-2 and he has > provided me with additional insights. > > Kelly Johnson was primarily a manager and a very good manager at that. > As a manager, he was really good at was keeping bureacrats and accountants > from messing with his programs. Personally, this is what I respect him > most for. Today, trying to accomplish this is all but impossible. Part > of the reason I work at a small company is to try and avoid having to deal > with these people. > > Unusually for a manager, he also did conceptual and preliminary design. I > have copies of portions of his design notebook that show he was laying out > the Archangel series that culminated in the A-12 himself. > > Not to take away from his legacy, but people should realize that he had > engineers working for him who did the detailed design and flight testing > work. These people included Irv Culver, Ben Rich, Rudy Thorne, Dick > Heppe, Dick Abrams, Dick Statler, etc. In the early days, he did a lot of > the engineering work himself (such as on the model 10 Electra, P-38 and > P-80), but as the designs increased in complexity and the Skunk Works > increased in importance to Lockheed, he became more of a manager. > Decisions, such as to put in the wedge to change the SR-71's > trim attitude likely came from wind tunnel testing and engineering > analysis, but he then made the decision to actually make the change to the > flight hardware. > > The bottom line - yes, he was good, but don't deify him! Personally, I > think the people that designed the DH-106 Comet and Boeing 707 and 747 > should get equal credit. The DH engineers pioneered a lot of the > engineering that is now standard on airliners. The Boeing engineers > designed some damn good airplanes that have stood the test of time and > made the company a profit - something that few other commercial aircraft > can claim. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics" > Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: dave@amiwest.com > 2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (425) 643-9090 > Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (425) 746-1299 Don't know what to say exactly. I guess aviation history books may write biographies that tend to give the primary person more credit and those who worked for him much less credit. Can you tell me if the following account is true? When the U-2 was doing its first flight tests at Area 51, someone complained about not getting enough power from the engine. Supposedly Kelly watched the plane on the ground while the engine was run at different throttle settings. The book or article claimed that he looked at the tailpipe and said for someone to cut about 6" off the end. They did and the engine ran better!! Now changing topic to a question someone asked a few months ago. A father was helping his son build a model of the M-12 with a D-21 included. He asked why the D-21's wings were canted downward. I said I think it was done to improve stability sort of like why the F-104s wings canted downward. Was my statement accurate at all? If not I'd love to know why the D-21 wings were canted downward. Thanks in advance. Al ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V9 #87 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". 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