From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V10 #2 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Sunday, January 28 2001 Volume 10 : Number 002 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] RE: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] Brass Monkey FWD (TLC-Mission) Fwd: U-2/SR-71 Maintainers Brass Monkeys Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] TSR.2 & SR-71 parallels Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] FWD (SW) Re: Brass monkeys & other nautical stuff Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] FWD (SW) Re: Brass monkeys & other nautical stuff FWD (PVT) Re: B-52 and KC-10 (U-2 Question) Re: FWD (PVT) Re: B-52 and KC-10 (U-2 Question) *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:29:53 -0000 From: "Gavin Payne" Subject: RE: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] Thanks for that email, made good reading as do most of the postings here! Am I correct in thinking that the Q model was only used with JP-7 fuel or could regular fuel also be offloaded? Did the Q model have any special features for the special fuel? Regards Gavin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com > [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Terry W. Colvin > Sent: 23 January 2001 05:48 > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] > > > The early U-2s didn't have IFR capability. The two remakes have full > IFR capabilties and are refueled by the KC-135Q/T. Besides the SR-71, > the 135Q also refueled the A-12 Oxcart aircraft. > > The early model U-2 were operated from a location close to their recon > area, to keep the flying distance to a minimal. They evidently had > fairly long range, although I don't know the specs for the different > versions. Check the Blackbird web sites for specs. > > When we ferried an early model, the KC-135Q and U-2 made scheduled > refueling stops along the way to the final destination. The IFR Boom > was lowered, a special hose connected and the U-2 refueled > right next to > the tanker during these stops. Just like a big gas pump with wings. > When we arrived at the final destination the remaining JP-7 (had PF-1 > written on the fuel trucks back then) was pumped off to be used for > photo missions. The personnel and equipment were offloaded and we > returned to Beale. Usually dragging our feet, with as many > maintenance > stops and RONs as the air crew could swing. The portable party! > > We could carry a whole detail of U-2 personnel and equipment to set up > an new photo recon operation anywhere in the world. I went along as > part of the KC-135Q maintenance team. Besides the four flight crew > members, there was the tanker crew chief, and his assistant, > plus radio, > radar, autopilot, engine, electrician and IFR troops. Every time the > same exact number of personnel. > > We were treated like kings on these missions. The wall > dividing officer > and enlisted was dropped on the missions. We were one team, together. > I thoroughly enjoyed each TDY. We never knew where we were > going until > we had picked up our cargo, and were heading to our destination. The > shop chief used to ask if I wanted to go TDY. "How many days? Oh, a > week or so." I knew it was a U-2 TDY. Next words were > "when does the > plane leave?" > > The KC-135Qs hav been re-engined and are now called the KC-135T. I do > believe they are still refueling the U-2. > > And Terry, you don't have to send this off for grading. I > know exactly > what I did on U-2 ("Twined Thumb") missions. > > Hap > > Howard S. "Hap" Wyman > TLCB Membership Committee > Aircraft Radio Maintenance > 56th AEMS ~ 56th Air Commando Wing > Nakhon Phanom RTAFB, 1968-69 > Oxcart Support ~ "Black Shield" Ops > 903rd ARS/KC-135Q ~ Kadena AB, 1967 > 456th AEMS ~ Beale AFB, 1966-68 > Member ~ ACA • TLCB • VFW #10249 > > -- > Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < > fortean1@frontiernet.net > > Alternate: < terry_colvin@hotmail.com > > Home Page: < > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * > TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program > ------------ > Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List > TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, > and Vietnam veterans welcome] > Southeast Asia (SEA) service: > Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade > (Jan 71 - Aug 72) > Thailand/Laos > - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand > (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) > - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand > (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site > (Aug 73 - Jan 74) > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:44:21 EST From: JNiessen@aol.com Subject: Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] To all, No U-2R, U-2S, or U-2ST has inflight refueling capability. The aircraft's range and endurance (both figures being much greater than what has been publicly acknowledged) with internal fuel are far beyond any conceivable mission requirement. And pilots can not last anywhere near as long as the aircraft can at 78,000 ft. Cheers, Jay Miller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:09:56 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] > No U-2R, U-2S, or U-2ST has inflight refueling capability. The aircraft's > range and endurance (both figures being much greater than what has been > publicly acknowledged) with internal fuel are far beyond any conceivable > mission requirement. And pilots can not last anywhere near as long as the > aircraft can at 78,000 ft. If so -- I have no qualifications to judge the above statement -- the U-2R/S/ST would seem to have been a great candidate for a loitering high-altitude UAV for reconnaissance/ surveillance and comms relay. Maybe stealthify it up a bit, and you'd have a nice, relatively low-cost platform that could do good duty in all but the most evil environments. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:00:34 -0600 From: "Robert S. Hopkins, III" Subject: RE: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] The Q model could offload any type of fuel carried on board. Prior to the JP-7 the fuel was especially corrosive, and the aircraft were fitted with special fuel cells and plumbing. Conversion of the Q models, BTW, was paid for by the CIA to support OXCART operations. DrBob >Am I correct in thinking that the Q model was only used with JP-7 fuel or >could regular fuel also be offloaded? Did the Q model have any special >features for the special fuel? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:36:52 -0500 From: Jim Rotramel Subject: Brass Monkey This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------83E8D86136FF1397DD03CFBF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every sailing ship had to have a cannon for protection. Cannons of the times required round iron cannonballs. The master wanted to store the cannonballs such that they could be of instant use when needed, yet not roll around the gun deck. The solution was to stack them up in a square-based pyramid next to the cannon. The top level of the stack had one ball, the next level down had four, the next had nine, the next had sixteen, and so on. Four levels would provide a stack of 30 cannonballs. The only real problem was how to keep the bottom level from sliding out from under the weight of the higher levels. To do this, they devised a small brass plate ("brass monkey") with one rounded indentation for each cannonball in the bottom layer. Brass was used because the cannonballs wouldn't rust to the "brass monkey," but would rust to an iron one. When temperature falls, brass contracts in size faster than iron. As it got cold on the gun decks, the indentations in the brass monkey would get smaller than the iron cannonballs they were holding. If the temperature got cold enough, the bottom layer would pop out of the indentations spilling the entire pyramid over the deck. Thus it was, quite literally, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey." And all this time you thought we were talking dirty. - --------------83E8D86136FF1397DD03CFBF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="mrvark.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jim Rotramel Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mrvark.vcf" begin:vcard n:Rotramel;Jim tel;fax:(301) 342-4922 tel;home:(301) 862-2321 tel;work:(301) 342-4358 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sites.netscape.net/mrvark/homepage adr:;;47249 Silver Slate Drive;Lexington Park;MD;20653-2434;USA version:2.1 email;internet:mrvark@erols.com x-mozilla-cpt:;3 fn:Jim Rotramel end:vcard - --------------83E8D86136FF1397DD03CFBF-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:39:29 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (TLC-Mission) Fwd: U-2/SR-71 Maintainers For those of you who either hold a card in the Blackbirds Assoc or just those of you who find two of the greatest A/C ever built I submit this. For those who hold a cad and have been having trouble running all the nets down (some true, some s---)we finially have a solid one. Check out the whole thing not just bits and pieces. David ANYTIME-ANYPLACE >Check out Our page dedicated to former USAF Aircraft maintainers of the U-2 >and SR-71. Our URL is < http://www.blackworld.freeservers.com >. If you want >to be included in our Roll Call list. Please send me the following info: > > NAME > #YEARS > SPECIALTY > AIRFRAME > E-MAIL ADDRESS > CITY OF RESIDENCE > >If you want to be included on our "Where are they now" page provide the >requested info plus any additional info you want to add. You can email to >me at < shadow@syix.com >. > >P.S: Be sure to sign our guest book and to pass the word about this site. > >Clyde Adkins David ANYTIME-ANYPLACE - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Alternate: < terry_colvin@hotmail.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:46:00 +0000 From: Robin Hill Subject: Brass Monkeys mrvark@erols related the tale of the balls on a brass monkey. Did you also know that urinating over the side of a ship in Nelson's navy was a serious offence, punishable by flogging? The crew's urine was collected in a large copper pot, usually above the galley, and boiled to make nitrates which were added to the gunpowder. The extra kick increased the range of the Royal Navy's guns by a critical ten feet or so. Other maritime phrases include "son of a gun" - when women were sometimes allowed to accompany men in ships of the navy, voyages were frequently long and any woman about to give birth had to do so beneath, or beside, one of the ship's guns, behind an improvised screen. Also "show a leg", short for "show a leg there or a purser's stocking". When the ratings were called out in the morning they had to jump to it. Any woman in the beds or hammocks had, literally, to show a leg or a stocking over the side to show that they were the occupants and were allowed a "lie-in". "Not enough room to swing a cat" comes from the cramped below-decks of navy vessels. The cat in this case was the cat o' nine tails, the traditional method of punishment, being a lash with nine straps. The lack of space inside the ship meant that the punishments were usually carried out on deck, where there *was* room to swing the cat. Robin Hill, BAE SYSTEMS, Brough, East Yorkshire ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 101 00:02:11 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] On 1/23/01 3:09PM, in message <001901c08591$9af9fb00$17cbc2d0@dzn.com>, "Allen Thomson" w > > If so -- I have no qualifications to judge the above statement -- the > U-2R/S/ST would seem to have been a great candidate for a loitering > high-altitude UAV for reconnaissance/ surveillance and comms relay. Maybe > stealthify it up a bit, and you'd have a nice, relatively low-cost platform > that could do good duty in all but the most evil environments. > > > The U-2 continues to perform yeoman service to this day, but it really isn't safe to use it in well defended airspace, since there are a number of SAMs and air launched missiles that can reach its altitude and it doesn't have the speed or ECM to defeat them (hey, it's a 45 year old design). All Saddam had to do was threaten to go U-2 hunting and we immediately pulled them out of those areas. We will be deploying Global Hawk as our new missile magnet, but thankfully it doesn't carry a crew. Art ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 101 00:21:41 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: TSR.2 & SR-71 parallels Tweaked by our recent TSR.2 discussion, I looked up some of my data on the a/c and found some interesting parallels. The cancellation of TSR.2 was widely feared, but when it actually happened it was very sudden The cancellation of the restored SR-71 program was widely feared, but when Bubba vetoed it it was very sudden. When the word of the TSR.2 cancellation arrived, XR220 was being prepared for its first flight later that day. When word of the veto arrived at Edwards, the SR was being fueled for a flight later that day. The TSR team requested permission to use the existing monies to fly the TSR a few more times to get research data. The bureaucrats turned them down cold, they hated the aircraft. The SR-71 team asked permission to continue the already begun preparations and make the already paid-for flight that day in salute of all those at Edwards who worked so hard on the restoration. The bureaucrats turned them down cold, they hated the aircraft. Of course, in the case of both aircraft, the production lines had been ordered destroyed by incompetent leaders to salve their own egos. In fact the people who gave the orders were admirers of each other. I guess the bad runs together. I won't even go into the Arrow. Art ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:54:00 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] betnal@ns.net wrote: > > On 1/23/01 3:09PM, in message <001901c08591$9af9fb00$17cbc2d0@dzn.com>, "Allen > Thomson" w > > > > If so -- I have no qualifications to judge the above statement -- the > > U-2R/S/ST would seem to have been a great candidate for a loitering > > high-altitude UAV for reconnaissance/ surveillance and comms relay. Maybe > > stealthify it up a bit, and you'd have a nice, relatively low-cost platform > > that could do good duty in all but the most evil environments. > > The U-2 continues to perform yeoman service to this day, but it really > isn't safe to use it in well defended airspace, since there are a number of > SAMs and air launched missiles that can reach its altitude and it doesn't have > the speed or ECM to defeat them (hey, it's a 45 year old design). All Saddam > had to do was threaten to go U-2 hunting and we immediately pulled them out of > those areas. Warrior Bravo supports the U-2 flights out of Kuwait and over the Southern No-Fly Zone. Until a year or two ago these U-2 flights originated out of Saudi Arabia. Selected SAM and radar sites were destroyed in almost daily bombings in several target windows throughout 1999 and 2000. BTW, wonder how Bush, Cheney and Powell will "deal with" Iraq in the near future? > We will be deploying Global Hawk as our new missile magnet, but thankfully > it doesn't carry a crew. > > Art Terry - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Alternate: < terry_colvin@hotmail.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:10:09 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (SW) Re: Brass monkeys & other nautical stuff Re: At 11:00 PM 26/01/2001 -0700, Terry W. Colvin forwarded: >Every sailing ship had to have a cannon for protection. When? Where? When'd they stop? I think you'll find the majority of sailing vessels through the ages have been unarmed. >Cannons of the >times required round iron cannonballs. The master wanted to store the >cannonballs such that they could be of instant use when needed, No he didn't. They'd get rusty, and no stack of cannonballs would stay put in rough seas. Snopes has a relevant page: http://www.snopes2.com/spoons/fracture/brass.htm >When >temperature falls, brass contracts in size faster than iron. As it got >cold on the gun decks, the indentations in the brass monkey would get >smaller than the iron cannonballs they were holding. If the temperature >got cold enough, the bottom layer would pop out of the indentations >spilling the entire pyramid over the deck. Even assuming the existence of a brass cannonball-tray, differential contraction would be very unlikely to suddenly pop a stack of cannonballs out of place. I presume they'd either seize in place or just be pushed up slightly. Perhaps a stick-slip interaction could cause one ball to pop up suddenly and the jolt of its movement to pop various others, but it's not as if a coconut-sized ball-hole would suddenly shrink to an eggcup size. >Did you also know that urinating over the side of a ship in Nelson's navy was >a serious offence, punishable by flogging? No, I didn't, and I suspect that whoever came up with this remembered something about pouring pee over manure heaps and harvesting potassium nitrate from the seepage. Just adding salty urea to your gunpowder will, I think, merely make the smoke smellier, and the powder weaker, if anything. I don't think you can fortify gunpowder with ammonia; that's the sort of thing I'd _definitely_ have remembered from my misspent youth. Black powder's ammonium nitrate, sulfur and carbon. That's all. >Other maritime phrases include "son of a gun" - when women were sometimes >allowed to accompany men in ships of the navy, voyages were frequently long >and any woman about to give birth had to do so beneath, or beside, one of the >ship's guns, behind an improvised screen. Another theory is that a boy born on board ship would be logged as a "son of a gun" if the mother wouldn't, or couldn't, name the father. Or that people would fire cannons next to the mother to help her with her labour (!). Or that it just means "son of a soldier". Ref: http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxsonofa.html - -- Daniel Rutter - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Alternate: < terry_colvin@hotmail.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 101 23:14:08 GMT From: betnal@ns.net Subject: Re: FWD (TLCB/PVT) U-2 Refueling [was Re: B-52 and KC-10] On 1/26/01 6:54PM, in message <3A723848.2512A4D3@frontiernet.net>, "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > betnal@ns.net wrote: > > > > On 1/23/01 3:09PM, in message <001901c08591$9af9fb00$17cbc2d0@dzn.com>, > "Allen > > Thomson" w > > > > > > If so -- I have no qualifications to judge the above statement -- the > > > U-2R/S/ST would seem to have been a great candidate for a loitering > > > high-altitude UAV for reconnaissance/ surveillance and comms relay. Maybe > > > stealthify it up a bit, and you'd have a nice, relatively low-cost > platform > > > that could do good duty in all but the most evil environments. > > > > The U-2 continues to perform yeoman service to this day, but it really > > isn't safe to use it in well defended airspace, since there are a number of > > SAMs and air launched missiles that can reach its altitude and it doesn't > have > > the speed or ECM to defeat them (hey, it's a 45 year old design). All > Saddam > > had to do was threaten to go U-2 hunting and we immediately pulled them out > of > > those areas. > > Warrior Bravo supports the U-2 flights out of Kuwait and over the Southern > No-Fly Zone. Until a year or two ago these U-2 flights originated out of > Saudi Arabia. Selected SAM and radar sites were destroyed in almost daily > bombings in several target windows throughout 1999 and 2000. BTW, wonder > how Bush, Cheney and Powell will "deal with" Iraq in the near future? > > > We will be deploying Global Hawk as our new missile magnet, but > thankfully > > it doesn't carry a crew. > > > > Art > > Terry > > The SAM sites we destroyed tended to be in areas that weren't of all that much strategic significance and had little effect on Saddam's warfighting capability. It's significant to note that the U-2s did not return to the areas from which Saddam had wanted them excluded until he finished whatever it was he wanted to do there, and he had announced that he was no longer interested in shooting them down. This is not in any way a slam on the U-2 and its personnel. We're talking about an aircraft design that's approaching it's 50th birthday vs. some of the world's best modern air defenses. ...and yes, the SR could have gone in there with ease, but that's another "might have been". Art ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:24:26 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (SW) Re: Brass monkeys & other nautical stuff snopes wrote: http://www.snopes.com/spoons/fracture/brass.htm +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Urban Legends Reference Pages --> http://www.snopes.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Alternate: < terry_colvin@hotmail.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] Southeast Asia (SEA) service: Vietnam - Theater Telecommunications Center/HHC, 1st Aviation Brigade (Jan 71 - Aug 72) Thailand/Laos - Telecommunications Center/U.S. Army Support Thailand (USARSUPTHAI), Camp Samae San (Jan 73 - Aug 73) - Special Security/Strategic Communications - Thailand (STRATCOM - Thailand), Phu Mu (Pig Mountain) Signal Site (Aug 73 - Jan 74) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:58:01 -0700 From: "Terry W. Colvin" Subject: FWD (PVT) Re: B-52 and KC-10 (U-2 Question) Terry, I hope this is the one you're requesting. I am forwarding the reply from my buddy at Beale. Bzaza ********************************************************* To the best of my knowledge the U2 has never had a successful in air refueling capability. They (SKUNK WORKS) tried it on the C model. The system worked good on the ground but caused too much air turbulence when they tried to refuel in the air. From what I learned and pictures that I've seen the two aircraft that were modified crashed trying to refuel. NOTE: This was several years ago so I might have the number of aircraft wrong. Another reason they did not develop this capability was that the air crew could not handle the flight duration. After most eight hour missions they had to be helped or lifted out of the cockpit. Also note that the early U2s that were used to take photos of foreign countries did not return to the same base that they departed from. Hope this helps. - -- Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1@frontiernet.net > Alternate: < terry_colvin@hotmail.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: Fortean Times * Northwest Mysteries * Mystic's Cyberpage * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program - ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org >[Allies, CIA/NSA, and Vietnam veterans welcome] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:56:36 -0500 From: Joe Donoghue Subject: Re: FWD (PVT) Re: B-52 and KC-10 (U-2 Question) At 09:58 AM 1/28/01 -0700, you wrote: >Terry, > >I hope this is the one you're requesting. I am forwarding the reply from >my buddy at Beale. > >Bzaza > >********************************************************* >To the best of my knowledge the U2 has never had a successful in air refueling >capability. They (SKUNK WORKS) tried it on the C model. The system worked >good >on the ground but caused too much air turbulence when they tried to refuel in >the air. From what I learned and pictures that I've seen the two aircraft >that >were modified crashed trying to refuel. SAC had 4 U-2E IRS-equipped aircraft beginning in about 1962. They conducted many successful missions using in-flight refueling including Cuba missions from Del Rio and overseas deployments to the Far East. The CIA had a number of U-2F IRS-equipped aircraft. They usually had 3 or 4 on strength from 1962 till the late 1960s. The Agency also used in-flight refueling frequently and, just as SAC did, kept its pilots proficient in the technique. One SAC pilot was killed during refueling practice in a CIA aircraft in March 1962. The other in-flight refueling loss occurred in Feb. 1966 when another CIA U-2 was over-stressed and broke up as the pilot began his climbout after successfully refueling. As Jay Miller has pointed out, the long wing U-2 models have no need for in-flight refueling as they can carry enough gas to out-last their pilots. >Also note that the early U2s that were used to take photos of foreign >countries >did not return to the same base that they departed from. A blanket statement which is untrue. Some missions recovered at bases distinct from their launch points but by no means all. Joe Donoghue ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V10 #2 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. 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