From: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com (skunk-works-digest) To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V10 #14 Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Sender: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Errors-To: owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Precedence: bulk skunk-works-digest Wednesday, April 4 2001 Volume 10 : Number 014 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: Buried relics RE: Buried relics RE: intentional? EP-3 in China Re: EP-3 in China *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:24:04 -0500 From: "Dolney, Al" Subject: RE: Buried relics The MIG-23 crash on 1984 cited in this article is the one that killed a USAF General (Bond?)? As I recall, he was the highest ranking USAF proponent for the SR-71. Al Dolney Ph. 256-961-1984 Fax. 256-544-2913 e-mail: al.dolney@boeing.com snail-mail: JJ-40 - -----Original Message----- From: John Szalay [mailto:john.szalay@postoffice.worldnet.att.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:42 PM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Re: Buried relics At 09:18 AM 4/3/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Take a look at: >http://12.9.217.6:80/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=986314142&view=rjsearch&doc rank=1&numhitsfound=5&query=Secret%20buried%20Area%2051&query_rule=%28%28$qu ery%29%29%20AND%20%28%23date%28$query1%29%29%3ADATE%20AND%20%28%28$query4%29 %29%3AHEADLINE&docid=6739&docdb=2001&dbname=2001&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&se tCookie=1 > > > IF you have problems with the above URL link use this one... http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Mar-25-Sun-2001/news/15545050.html \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -----------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------- | john.szalay@att.net | ------------------Oooo.----------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message, However, A rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:29:09 -0500 From: "Dolney, Al" Subject: RE: Buried relics List of crashed F-117's as compiled by Peter Merlin: http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Mar-25-Sun-2001/news/14372366.html With Peter's help, my 6 year old son, my father and myself visited the crash site of Tail # 822 last July. This F-117 crashed in 1995 near Zuni, NM, which is about 30 miles south of Gallup, NM. I have about 1-2 lbs of aircraft material that we found at the crash site. Only a few pieces would indicate an aircraft had crashed there. There largest piece was about 2 inches. Al Dolney Ph. 256-961-1984 Fax. 256-544-2913 e-mail: al.dolney@boeing.com snail-mail: JJ-40 - -----Original Message----- From: John Szalay [mailto:john.szalay@postoffice.worldnet.att.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:42 PM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: Re: Buried relics At 09:18 AM 4/3/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Take a look at: >http://12.9.217.6:80/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=986314142&view=rjsearch&doc rank=1&numhitsfound=5&query=Secret%20buried%20Area%2051&query_rule=%28%28$qu ery%29%29%20AND%20%28%23date%28$query1%29%29%3ADATE%20AND%20%28%28$query4%29 %29%3AHEADLINE&docid=6739&docdb=2001&dbname=2001&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&se tCookie=1 > > > IF you have problems with the above URL link use this one... http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Mar-25-Sun-2001/news/15545050.html \\ ~ ~ // ( @ @ ) -----------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------- | john.szalay@att.net | ------------------Oooo.----------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message, However, A rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:00:02 -0400 From: "Frank Markus" Subject: RE: intentional? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0BCDD.4083AEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spy planes are not fungible. The SR-71 is a remarkable aircraft with extraordinary multiple payloads. But I doubt that any payload package in a two man aircraft is as capable as is an aircraft with a vastly larger payload and crew. Another consideration is that the high speed of the SR-71 precludes lingering over a target to the extend that a much slower aircraft can. And, while the greater altitude of the SR-71 gives it a better "view" it also means that signals (and images) are attenuated by the square of the difference in altitude. There is nothing illegal about an aircraft (or surface vessel) passing in proximity to the coast of another power provided that the vessel is in international waters. This is not the place for a disquisition on the exact rules of what constitutes national and international water. It is sufficient for this purpose to say that for the most part, these limits are well understood. In areas where there are conflicting claims - as in parts of the South China Sea - each of the powers claiming sovereignty will have publicly asserted its purported areas of sovereignty so that vessels in the area are, at least, on notice. Applying all this to the current situation, if we assume that the maps that have been published are correct, it would seem that the American aircraft was over water that was not in the area that China has unilaterally claimed as theirs. Thus, even granting the Chinese interpretation of their national airspace, it appears that the American plane was not in violation. Both China and America (as does every nation) have the right to free passage in international airspace. Thus, China had a complete right to intercept the American plane and fly close to it. (Remember the pictures of the American fighters "escorting" Soviet 'bear' bombers - with lots of antennas - as they cruised down the East Coast on their way to Cuba and back.) However, there is no right to interfere with a vessel or aircraft in international waters or airspace. Of course China was well aware of the American intention in flying it aircraft along the edge of Chinese airspace. But China had no right to interfere with the American plane until it transgressed the line of Chinese sovereignty. My guess is that this incident was caused by a combination of factors: (1) Incompetence on the part of the Chinese fighter pilot (2) A desire to test a new president (3) A desire to prevent further surveillance of China (4) An attempt to send a "message" to the new administration about assistance to Taiwan. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Haitham Yousef Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:58 AM To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com Subject: intentional? Everything is possible. I think sending a plane loaded with the latest surveillance technology too close to enemy territory is very dangerous, besides surveillance can be conducted from far away as the SR-71 used to do! Only time will tell what really has happened. Patience my fellow Skunkers! Haitham - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0BCDD.4083AEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sp= y planes are not fungible.  The = SR-71 is a remarkable aircraft with extraordinary multiple payloads.  But I doubt that any payload = package in a two man aircraft is as capable as is an aircraft with a vastly larger = payload and crew.  Another = consideration is that the high speed of the SR-71 precludes lingering over a target to = the extend that a much slower aircraft can.  And, while the greater altitude of the SR-71 gives it a better = “view” it also means that signals (and images) are attenuated by the square of the difference in altitude.

 

Th= ere is nothing illegal about an aircraft (or surface vessel) passing in = proximity to the coast of another power provided that the vessel is in international waters.  This is not the = place for a disquisition on the exact rules of what constitutes national and international water.  It = is sufficient for this purpose to say that for the most part, these limits = are well understood.  In areas = where there are conflicting claims – as in parts of the South China Sea = – each of the powers claiming sovereignty will have publicly asserted its purported = areas of sovereignty so that vessels in the area are, at least, on = notice.

 

Ap= plying all this to the current situation, if we assume that the maps that have = been published are correct, it would seem that the American aircraft was over = water that was not in the area that China has unilaterally claimed as = theirs.  Thus, even granting the = Chinese interpretation of their national airspace, it appears that the American = plane was not in violation.

 

Bo= th China and America (as does every nation) have the right to free passage in = international airspace.  Thus, China had = a complete right to intercept the American plane and fly close to it.  (Remember the pictures of the = American fighters “escorting”  = Soviet ‘bear’ bombers – with lots of antennas – as they cruised down the = East Coast on their way to Cuba and back.)  = However, there is no right to interfere with a vessel or aircraft in = international waters or airspace.  Of = course China was well aware of the American intention in flying it aircraft = along the edge of Chinese airspace.  = But China had no right to interfere with the American plane until it = transgressed the line of Chinese sovereignty.  =

 

My= guess is that this incident was caused by a combination of factors:  (1) Incompetence on the part = of the Chinese fighter pilot  (2) = A desire to test a new president  = (3) A desire to prevent further surveillance of China  (4) An attempt to send a “message” to the = new administration about assistance to Taiwan.

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com = [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com]On Behalf Of Haitham Yousef
Sent: Wednesday, April = 04, 2001 6:58 AM
To: = skunk-works@netwrx1.com
Subject: = intentional?

 

Everything is possible. I think sending a plane loaded with the latest surveillance technology too close to enemy territory is very dangerous, besides = surveillance can be conducted from far away as the SR-71 used to do! Only time will = tell what really has happened. Patience my fellow Skunkers! = <= /p>

Haitham
 

- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0BCDD.4083AEE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:31:47 -0400 From: "Morris, Andrew" Subject: EP-3 in China This morning on one of the morning shows photos of the EP-3 were shown. For one thing the nose radome is gone, they showed shots of the wing but darned if I could make out any significant mangling of metal (they didn't show the photos for any long duration). The report from the representative who met with the crew said they lost flaps and use of ailerons, lost 2 engines(?) and that it was unbelievable that the PIC could have landed it safely, but he did (McKay Trophy possible?). Possible the radome was ripped off by the Chinese to see what was under there, we'll have to see. Supposedly the American rep out buying tooth brushes and other toiletries for the crew after their meeting. With the history of China detaining Americans for long periods of time I hope they each get at least 2 tooth brushes. ++++++++ An uncompensated plug for a great book I recently consumed is The Book of Honor the author is a Robert Gup. It is a remarkable history of the lives and sadly deaths of some of the earliest CIA operatives in China through current day Mogadishu. I had aspirations to work for the CIA after college having then become an area specialist in languages and cultures of Central Asia, but I sit in awe of the men and women who have served and died with honor. The Book of Honor refers to a book (sealed in a glass case) and commemorative wall (with stars-some with names inscribed some blank because their names cannot be inscribed for security reasons) inside CIA headquarters. Chapters include an American held in Chinese prisons from 1949 until his death in the 1970s. We knew he was there, his mother visited him in prison, but we could not negotiate his release! Other chapters talk of the Alabama ANG pilots flying Bay of Pigs missions, pilots flying ops in the Congo in T-28s, and some operatives who died in Laos and Cambodia flying obsolete choppers. This book moved me (almost beyond words), it honors these folks and describes their lives before and during their quiet service to this country. Most remarkable are medal ceremonies for many of these heroes--the families are brought to a room presented with the commendation and medals for their husbands or fathers then the medals are taken back and put in the persons folder in a vault! Family members are delivered death notices that are then taken back from them after reading and burned. It gives keen insight into this black world. Andy thanks for the bandwidth Morris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:40:17 -0400 From: "Weigold, Greg" Subject: Re: EP-3 in China This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0BD0D.0694EB42 Content-Type: text/plain The report I heard on NBC this morning was that the radome came off in the tangle with the fighter, they also lost a propeller (that was pretty obvious) and the closer shots of the wings showed some obvious damage, but none (except the loss of radome) looked like a Mayday situation... Of course, I wasn't flying the thing!!! These airframes are OLD, if I remember correctly most were built in the '60's and must have MANY thousands of hours on them... The stresses caused by ANY damage may have been horrendous, I would think... Anyone know what/how the effects on the place would be if the radome was ripped off in flight? Obviously the plane was never designed to fly that way.... Greg W "Morris, Andrew" 04/04/01 09:31 AM Please respond to skunk-works To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com@SMTP@BlytheExchange, "Aircraft Listserv (E-mail)" @SMTP@BlytheExchange cc: Subject: EP-3 in China This morning on one of the morning shows photos of the EP-3 were shown. For one thing the nose radome is gone, they showed shots of the wing but darned if I could make out any significant mangling of metal (they didn't show the photos for any long duration). The report from the representative who met with the crew said they lost flaps and use of ailerons, lost 2 engines(?) and that it was unbelievable that the PIC could have landed it safely, but he did (McKay Trophy possible?). Possible the radome was ripped off by the Chinese to see what was under there, we'll have to see. Supposedly the American rep out buying tooth brushes and other toiletries for the crew after their meeting. With the history of China detaining Americans for long periods of time I hope they each get at least 2 tooth brushes. ++++++++ An uncompensated plug for a great book I recently consumed is The Book of Honor the author is a Robert Gup. It is a remarkable history of the lives and sadly deaths of some of the earliest CIA operatives in China through current day Mogadishu. I had aspirations to work for the CIA after college having then become an area specialist in languages and cultures of Central Asia, but I sit in awe of the men and women who have served and died with honor. The Book of Honor refers to a book (sealed in a glass case) and commemorative wall (with stars-some with names inscribed some blank because their names cannot be inscribed for security reasons) inside CIA headquarters. Chapters include an American held in Chinese prisons from 1949 until his death in the 1970s. We knew he was there, his mother visited him in prison, but we could not negotiate his release! Other chapters talk of the Alabama ANG pilots flying Bay of Pigs missions, pilots flying ops in the Congo in T-28s, and some operatives who died in Laos and Cambodia flying obsolete choppers. This book moved me (almost beyond words), it honors these folks and describes their lives before and during their quiet service to this country. Most remarkable are medal ceremonies for many of these heroes--the families are brought to a room presented with the commendation and medals for their husbands or fathers then the medals are taken back and put in the persons folder in a vault! Family members are delivered death notices that are then taken back from them after reading and burned. It gives keen insight into this black world. Andy thanks for the bandwidth Morris - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0BD0D.0694EB42 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: EP-3 in China

          The report I heard on NBC this morning = was that the radome came off in the tangle with the fighter, they also = lost a propeller (that was pretty obvious) and the closer shots of the = wings showed some obvious damage, but none (except the loss of = radome)  looked like a Mayday situation...   Of course, = I wasn't flying the thing!!!    These airframes are OLD, = if I remember correctly most were built in the '60's and must have MANY = thousands of hours on them...  The stresses caused by ANY damage = may have been horrendous, I would think...

          Anyone know what/how the effects on the = place would be if the radome was ripped off in flight?  Obviously = the plane was never designed to fly that way....

          Greg W

             




        "Morris, Andrew" = <morris@admissions.buffalo.edu>

        04/04/01 09:31 AM
        Please respond to skunk-works
                =        =20

        To:     skunk-works@netwrx1.com@SMTP@BlytheExchange, = "Aircraft Listserv (E-mail)" = <aircraft-list@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>@SMTP@BlytheExchange

        cc:    
        Subject:        = EP-3 in China  

          This morning on one of the morning = shows photos of the EP-3 were shown.  For
          one thing the nose radome is gone, = they showed shots of the wing but darned
          if I could make out any significant = mangling of metal (they didn't show the
          photos for any long duration).  = The report from the representative who met
          with the crew said they lost flaps = and use of ailerons, lost 2 engines(?)
          and that it was unbelievable that the = PIC could have landed it safely, but
          he did (McKay Trophy = possible?).
           
          Possible the radome was ripped off by = the Chinese to see what was under
          there, we'll have to see.  = Supposedly the American rep out buying tooth
          brushes and other toiletries for the = crew after their meeting.  With the
          history of China detaining Americans = for long periods of time I hope they
          each get at least 2 tooth = brushes.
           
          ++++++++
           
          An uncompensated plug for a great = book I recently consumed is The Book of
          Honor the author is a Robert = Gup.  It is a remarkable history of the lives
          and sadly deaths of some of the = earliest CIA operatives in China through
          current day Mogadishu.  I had = aspirations to work for the CIA after college
          having then become an area specialist = in languages and cultures of Central
          Asia, but I sit in awe of the men and = women who have served and died with
          honor.  The Book of Honor refers = to a book (sealed in a glass case) and
          commemorative wall (with stars-some = with names inscribed some blank because
          their names cannot be inscribed for = security reasons) inside CIA
          headquarters.  Chapters include = an American held in Chinese prisons from
          1949 until his death in the = 1970s.  We knew he was there, his mother visited
          him in prison, but we could not = negotiate his release!  Other chapters talk
          of the Alabama ANG pilots flying Bay = of Pigs missions, pilots flying ops in
          the Congo in T-28s, and some = operatives who died in Laos and Cambodia flying
          obsolete choppers.  This book = moved me (almost beyond words), it honors
          these folks and describes their lives = before and during their quiet service
          to this country.  Most = remarkable are medal ceremonies for many of these
          heroes--the families are brought to a = room presented with the commendation
          and medals for their husbands or = fathers then the medals are taken back and
          put in the persons folder in a = vault!  Family members are delivered death
          notices that are then taken back from = them after reading and burned.  It
          gives keen insight into this black = world.
           
          Andy thanks for the bandwidth Morris =




- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0BD0D.0694EB42-- ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V10 #14 ********************************* To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner