From owner-skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Sun Mar 28 15:05:14 2004 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:27:29 -0600 From: skunk-works-digest Reply-To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com To: skunk-works-digest@netwrx1.com Subject: skunk-works-digest V13 #7 skunk-works-digest Sunday, March 28 2004 Volume 13 : Number 007 Index of this digest by subject: *************************************************** RE: Tonopah activity Re: Tonopah activity Re: Tonopah activity That location. Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site (part 2) Earthquakes... ELINT and OXCART design COBRA SPOT Re: COBRA SPOT U-2 Overflights 1956-1960 *****SPAM***** Re skunk-works-digestify@netwrx1.com: Balance Due, account. AIM-47 launch footage RE: AIM-47 launch footage U-2 cost Re: U-2 cost RE: U-2 cost RE: U-2 cost Request for info Re: Request for info NASA's X-43A Proves Hypersonic Scramjet Flight Scram Jet *************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:36:09 -0800 From: "Joy Richards" Subject: RE: Tonopah activity > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com] > On Behalf Of Joy Richards > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 1:30 AM > To: skunk-works@netwrx1.com > Subject: Tonopah activity > > I watch the earthquake reports... Argh. I checked the same activity on the California earthquake reporting site and got a different story... Yes, there's an earthquake storm very near to Tonopah. It's not ground level, however. http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/recenteqs/latest.htm It's still interesting. Anyone currently in the area that could give more info? Joy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:51:31 -0800 From: "Mr. K. Rudolph" Subject: Re: Tonopah activity I would say yes! For a several month period my intern and I watched a USGS page while explosives testing went on at Garfield Flats. Several just above a magnatiude of three and all repoted at 0.0 feet. Those tests all seemed to happen between 0900 and 1200. Kurt - --- Ross Technologies Signals Intelligence Division Rosetta Proving Ground ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:55:18 -0800 From: "Mr. K. Rudolph" Subject: Re: Tonopah activity That is a little east of the explosives test/disposal site, I will grab my maps and see what is out there. Kurt - --- Ross Technologies Signals Intelligence Division Rosetta Proving Ground ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:21:44 -0800 From: "Mr. K. Rudolph" Subject: That location. Well... I don't see anything out there! Guess there is only one way to find out! Drive to that co-ordintate and see whats' going on. Kurt - --- Ross Technologies Signals Intelligence Division Rosetta Proving Ground - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mr. K. Rudolph To: Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 09:55 Subject: Re: Tonopah activity > That is a little east of the explosives test/disposal site, I will grab my > maps and see what is out there. > > Kurt > > --- > Ross Technologies Signals Intelligence Division > Rosetta Proving Ground ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:24:33 EST From: Xelex@aol.com Subject: Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site Brent C. asked about the A-12 (60-6926/Article 123) crash site: Just curious, was the crash site in the Utah Test & Training Range or public land? I understand that the cover story was that an F-105 had crashed. Were parts from another aircraft placed at the site to "throw off" persons who came across the site? It is 14 miles south of Wendover, in a remote area a little west of the UTTR boundary, in Nevada. There were only A-12 pieces at the site. They included titanium skin and structure, composite skin from the chines and wing edge inserts, J75 engine parts, and cockpit components. All of the composite skin and some of the titanium skin was painted black. Most of the titanium skin was unpainted. Some of it had blue paint over light gray from the edge of the national insignia. Most of the parts were fragmented by ground impact, but some were obviously cut with blowtorches. There was no intrusive debris (i.e. parts of another airplane). In my experience, that sort of subterfuge is simply not done. Peter W. Merlin THE X-HUNTERS Aerospace Archeology Team ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:13 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: mark@markr.net (Mark Rousell) Subject: Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site > There was no intrusive debris (i.e. parts of another > airplane). In my experience, that sort of subterfuge is simply not done. I do not have a reference to hand but was this not done with a F-117 crash? I could be wrong about this and I am working from memory but I seem to recall that a F-117 crashed due to pilot confusion during a night test flight and the crash site was cleansed of 'secret' material and parts of a non-secret aircraft were scattered on the site. MarkR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:39:12 -0800 From: Patrick Subject: Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site At 01:13 AM 11/26/2003, you wrote: > > There was no intrusive debris (i.e. parts of another > > airplane). In my experience, that sort of subterfuge is simply not done. > >I do not have a reference to hand but was this not done with a F-117 >crash? I could be wrong about this and I am working from memory but I seem >to recall that a F-117 crashed due to pilot confusion during a night test >flight and the crash site was cleansed of 'secret' material and parts of a >non-secret aircraft were scattered on the site. It's my understanding Peter Merlin has identified the origin of this folk lore. It was begun by the Flight Director at LADC who was trying to discourage any more visitors to the crash site. He ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:48:26 -0800 From: Patrick Subject: Re: A-12 (#926) Crash Site (part 2) Ooops...... It's my understanding Peter Merlin has identified the origin of this folk lore. It was begun by the Flight Director at LADC who was trying to discourage any more visitors to the crash site. Dick Abrahms stated that the site was "cleansed" and salted with crash parts from an F-101. Peter has visited this site on several occasions and has found no evidence of an F-101 but plenty evidence of an F-117. The story was then picked up by an early author of F-117 publications to firmly plant the rumor in everyone's thinking. Peters reputation for accuracy and truthfulness in wreck hunting is impeccable. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:45:27 -0800 From: "Mr. K. Rudolph" Subject: Earthquakes... They are just that, earthquakes. I went to two locations today, and there wasn't much to see. I did see two of the faults that aren't on the map, one about 15' high, another about 25' high. The concentration of quakes is where these two faults intersect. All the hills around there are old lava flows. I got a flat tire on one spot recorded as being an epicenter, and while earing lunch and staring at my tire a small quake hit. Not big enough to be felt, but lots of thumping and crunching coming out of the hill behind me. The ground in that are is like jello, stomping your feet will shake and rumble the surrounding area, and one area is almost entirely talc with a mine in it. When I stomped on the ground above I could hear rumbling way down inside the mine. I took several photos of the two areas I explored. Kurt - --- Ross Technologies Signals Intelligence Division Rosetta Proving Ground ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 09:02:50 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: ELINT and OXCART design http://www.tbp.org/pages/Publications/BENTFeatures/Poteat.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 12:08:10 -0600 From: "Allen Thomson" Subject: COBRA SPOT In http://www.dior.whs.mil/peidhome/guide/mn02/WEAPON-CODE-SEARCH.PDF there is mention of a COBRA SPOT among more familiar USAF COBRAs. Anybody know what COBRA SPOT is/was? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:55:40 -0500 (EST) From: Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: Re: COBRA SPOT Allen, >Anybody know what COBRA SPOT is/was? COBRA SPOT was a SIGINT (or maybe COMINT) system of some sort. I don't have any further details, though. Time frame is mid 1970s. - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: GPahl@CharterMI.net 415 Gute Street or: Andreas@DDPSoftware.com Owosso, MI 48867-4410 or: Andreas@Aerospace-History.net Tel: (989) 723-9927 Web Site: http://www.Aerospace-History.net - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:01:38 -0600 From: "dethfanatic" Subject: U-2 Overflights 1956-1960 A few side notes- This isn't EVERY U-2 overflight, just those over Soviet Bloc territory (i.e. Warsaw Pact or similarly minded nations). A number of flights were launched out of Peshawar in Pakistan and recovered at a small airstrip in eastern Iran. These were essentially big ferry flights; they originated from Incirlik in Turkey. Under Operation Quickmove, the U-2 and a C-130 left Incirlik for Peshawar. They landed, a new pilot got into the U-2, gassed up, and conducted the recce flight, returning to Iran where the C-130 and yet another U-2 pilot was waiting. Then the new pilot got into the jet, gassed up, and went back to Incirlik. No U-2 was ever actually based in Iran or Pakistan. Some other flights launched and recovered from Bodo in Norway. The dates and targets come from a declassified memo from Allen Dulles, CIA head, to Brigadier General Andrew J. Goodpaster, dated 18 August 1960. Goodpaster was Eisenhower's staff secretary from 1954-1961. My copy of the memo, and about 20 other U-2/CORONA/OXCART related documents, comes courtesy of the Eisenhower Library in Abeline, Kansas. 20 June 1956-Poland, DDR, Czechoslovakia 2 July 1956-DDR, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Hungary 2 July 1956-Romania, DDR, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland 4 July 1956-Russia, DDR, Poland, Estonia, Latvia 5 July 1956-Russia, DDR, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania 9 July 1956-Poland, DDR, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia 9 July 1956-DDR, Hungary, Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia 10 July 1956-DDR, Russia, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary 6 Sept 1956-Yugoslavia, Albania 12 Oct 1956-Yugoslavia, Albania 20 Nov 1956-Russia 10 Dec 1956-Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania 10 Dec 1956-Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania 25 April 1957-Albania 8 June 1957-Russia 20 June 1957-Russia 4 August 1957-China, Mongolia, Russia 5 August 1957-Russia 11 August 1957-Russia, China 20 August 1957-Russia, China 20 August 1957-Russia, China 21 August 1957-Russia, China 21 August 1957-Russia, China 21 August 1957-Tibet, China 28 August 1957-Russia 10 Sept 1957-Russia 26 Sept 1957-Russia 13 Oct 1957-Russia 28 Jan 1958-Albania 1 March 1958-Russia 18 June 1958-China 20 August 1958-China 9 Sept 1958-China 22 Oct 1958-China 12 May 1959-Tibet, Laos, North Vietnam, China 14 May 1959-Tibet, China 9 July 1959-Russia 29 August 1959-North Vietnam, Laos 3 Sept 1959-Tibet, China 4 Sept 1959-Tibet, China, Laos 7 Sept 1959-Laos, North Vietnam 9 Sept 1959-Tibet, China 12 Sept 1959-Laos, North Vietnam 4 Nov 1959-China, Tibet, Burma 6 Dec 1959-Russia 10 Feb 1960-Russia 30 March 1960-Tibet, Western China 4 April 1960-Tibet, Western China 9 April 1960-Russia 1 May 1960-Russia Cheers, Sean O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:58:29 -0500 From: "Lordship E. Leaflet" Subject: *****SPAM***** Re skunk-works-digestify@netwrx1.com: Balance Due, account. SPAM: -------------------- Start SpamAssassin results ---------------------- SPAM: This mail is probably spam. The original message has been altered SPAM: so you can recognise or block similar unwanted mail in future. SPAM: See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. SPAM: SPAM: Content analysis details: (8.4 hits, 5 required) SPAM: Hit! (1.5 points) Sent with 'X-Msmail-Priority' set to high SPAM: Hit! (-1.2 points) Sent with 'X-Priority' set to high SPAM: Hit! (1.8 points) BODY: Uses %-escapes inside a URL's hostname SPAM: Hit! (0.8 points) BODY: Uses a username in a URL SPAM: Hit! (4.5 points) HTML-only mail, with no text version SPAM: Hit! (1.0 point) Received via a relay in inputs.orbz.org SPAM: [RBL check: found 219.174.240.195.inputs.orbz.org., type: 66.172.72.166] SPAM: SPAM: -------------------- End of SpamAssassin results ---------------------



=











= =20
------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:32:47 -0600 From: "dethfanatic" Subject: AIM-47 launch footage All- There's images and a video showing an AIM-47 launch at the following link: http://mrdata.com/~blakef/mystery-aircraft/ Cheers, Sean O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:58:55 -0600 From: "David Bastian" Subject: RE: AIM-47 launch footage Fisheye lens ? DB. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com > [mailto:owner-skunk-works@netwrx1.com] On Behalf Of dethfanatic > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:33 PM > To: Skunk Works Mailing List > Subject: AIM-47 launch footage > > > All- > There's images and a video showing an AIM-47 launch at the > following link: > http://mrdata.com/~blakef/mystery-aircraft/ Cheers, Sean O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:43:39 -0500 (EST) From: Wei-Jen Su Subject: U-2 cost Since the Skunk Works list is extremely slow (I hope I am not the only one left in the list), I wish if anyone can confirm the cost of the U-2S. I read it is US$ 400 million for the U-2S! Personally I think that is a lot of money compare with others reconnaissance aircraft. I am wondering why it cost so much? Sincerely, Wei-Jen Su E-mail: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu "What's the purpose of the propeller? To keep the pilot cool. If you don't think so, just stop it and watch him sweat!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:19:25 -0600 From: "dethfanatic" Subject: Re: U-2 cost Well, for a U-2S you have to take the cost of a U-2R and add the cost of an -S model upgrade (I.E. program cost divided by number of upgraded aircraft). If someone has the relevant numbers lying around that's how you'll have to go about it. Cheers, Sean O'Connor - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wei-Jen Su" To: "Skunk Works" Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: U-2 cost > Since the Skunk Works list is extremely slow (I hope I am not the only one > left in the list), I wish if anyone can confirm the cost of the U-2S. I > read it is US$ 400 million for the U-2S! Personally I think that is a lot > of money compare with others reconnaissance aircraft. I am wondering why > it cost so much? > > Sincerely, > > Wei-Jen Su > E-mail: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu > > "What's the purpose of the propeller? > To keep the pilot cool. If you don't think so, just stop it > and watch him sweat!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:56:15 -0800 From: Erik Hoel Subject: RE: U-2 cost Wei-Jen, Did you every finish up at Cal Tech? What did you end up researching? Erik > -----Original Message----- > From: Wei-Jen Su [mailto:wsu02@utopia.poly.edu] > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 7:44 PM > To: Skunk Works > Subject: U-2 cost > > Since the Skunk Works list is extremely slow (I hope I am not > the only one left in the list), I wish if anyone can confirm > the cost of the U-2S. I read it is US$ 400 million for the > U-2S! Personally I think that is a lot of money compare with > others reconnaissance aircraft. I am wondering why it cost so much? > > Sincerely, > > Wei-Jen Su > E-mail: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu > > "What's the purpose of the propeller? > To keep the pilot cool. If you don't think so, just stop it > and watch him sweat!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:31:43 -0500 (EST) From: Wei-Jen Su Subject: RE: U-2 cost Dear Mr. Hoel, I got my M.S. and Eng. Degree at Caltech (experimental researches in Rayleight-Taylor Instability and Subsonic Diffuser with Aerodynamic Control). Because of the current needs of our nation, I decided to start making some contribution (I am now working for the DoD) and finishing my Ph.D. at the same time at my Alma Mater (Polytechnic University at Brooklyn, NY). My current research is a novel technique to measure vorticity in turbulence shear flows. Thank you very much for your interest. Sincerely, Wei-Jen Su E-mail: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Erik Hoel wrote: > Wei-Jen, > > Did you every finish up at Cal Tech? What did you end up researching? > > Erik > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wei-Jen Su [mailto:wsu02@utopia.poly.edu] > > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 7:44 PM > > To: Skunk Works > > Subject: U-2 cost > > > > Since the Skunk Works list is extremely slow (I hope I am not > > the only one left in the list), I wish if anyone can confirm > > the cost of the U-2S. I read it is US$ 400 million for the > > U-2S! Personally I think that is a lot of money compare with > > others reconnaissance aircraft. I am wondering why it cost so much? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Wei-Jen Su > > E-mail: wsu02@utopia.poly.edu > > > > "What's the purpose of the propeller? > > To keep the pilot cool. If you don't think so, just stop it > > and watch him sweat!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:28:36 -0800 From: "Joy Richards" Subject: Request for info I hope this isn't too off-topic... It's a long shot, perhaps, but perhaps there's someone out there who has some kind of reasonably accurate drawings, blueprints or 3-views of the General Electric X-211? I could also use drawings of the J75/JT4 (used in the U2). Side or top view photographs would be good, too, but primarily needed are drawings. I'm in need of them, photocopy or digital, for an graphics project I'm working on and I'd of course reimburse any photocopy expenses. Citations or web links would also be appreciated. Joy Richards ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:48:15 -0700 From: Brad Hitch Subject: Re: Request for info Here's a couple of links that may be of some help: pg 20. photo Brad Hitch Joy Richards wrote: > I hope this isn't too off-topic... > > It's a long shot, perhaps, but perhaps there's someone out there who has > some kind of reasonably accurate drawings, blueprints or 3-views of the > General Electric X-211? I could also use drawings of the J75/JT4 (used in > the U2). Side or top view photographs would be good, too, but primarily > needed are drawings. > > I'm in need of them, photocopy or digital, for an graphics project I'm > working on and I'd of course reimburse any photocopy expenses. > > Citations or web links would also be appreciated. > > Joy Richards ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 02:33:14 -0500 (EST) From: Andreas Gehrs-Pahl Subject: NASA's X-43A Proves Hypersonic Scramjet Flight I bet Larry was very happy to read this NASA Dryden Flight Research Center Press Release about the successful X-43A flight: NASA News National Aeronautics and Space Administration Dryden Flight Research Center P.O. Box 273 Edwards, California 93523 Phone (661) 276-3449 FAX (661) 276-3566 March 27, 2004 Michael Braukus: (202) 358-1979 NASA Headquarters Keith Henry: (757) 864-6120 NASA Langley Research Center Gray Creech: (661) 276-2662 NASA Dryden Flight Research Center RELEASE: 04-16 NASA's X-43A Proves Hypersonic Scramjet Flight NASA's second X-43A hypersonic research aircraft flew successfully today, the first time an airbreathing scramjet powered aircraft has flown freely. The unpiloted vehicle's supersonic combustion ramjet, or scramjet, ignited as planned and operated for the duration of its hydrogen fuel supply, which lasted about 10 seconds. The X-43A reached its test speed of Mach 7. "It's been a great, record-breaking day," said Larry Huebner, NASA Langley Research Center's Hyper-X propulsion lead. "We achieved positive acceleration of the vehicle while we were climbing, and maintained outstanding vehicle control. This was a world-record speed for air-breathing flight," Huebner said. The flight, originating from NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center, began at 12:40 p.m. PST, as NASA's B-52B launch aircraft carrying the X-43A lifted off the runway. The X-43A, mounted on a modified Pegasus booster rocket, was launched from the B-52B just before 2 p.m. The rocket boosted the X-43A up to its test altitude of about 95,000 ft. over the Pacific Ocean, where the X-43A separated from the booster and flew freely for several minutes following scramjet engine operation, in order to gather aerodynamic data. "Today was a grand-slam in the bottom of the 12th," said Joel Sitz, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center's X-43A project manager. "It was fun all the way to Mach 7. We separated the research vehicle from the launch vehicle, as well as separating the real from the imagined," Sitz said. NASA's Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va., and Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, Calif., jointly conduct the Hyper-X program. ATK GASL (formerly MicroCraft, Inc.) in Tullahoma, Tenn., built both the vehicle and the engine, and Boeing Phantom Works in Huntington Beach, Calif., designed the thermal protection and onboard systems. The booster is a modified Pegasus rocket built by Orbital Sciences Corp. Chandler, Ariz. - - NASA - For more X-43A information, visit: www.nasa.gov/missions/research/x43-main.html - -- Andreas - --- --- Andreas Gehrs-Pahl E-Mail: GPahl@CharterMI.net 415 Gute Street or: Andreas@DDPSoftware.com Owosso, MI 48867-4410 or: Andreas@Aerospace-History.net Tel: (989) 723-9927 Web Site: http://www.Aerospace-History.net - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:26:04 -0500 From: "Frank Markus" Subject: Scram Jet Is the scramjet really that complicated? It seems like a rather simple device that ought to work provided that you can get it up to its necessary speed and keep it pointed into the airstream. In the first test, those issues caused a failure; in the second, it worked as predicted. No doubt I am missing something (probably quite a lot.) >From what I understand, in essence, a scram jet is a heat-resistant funnel that captures air and compresses it until, at the narrowest point, hydrogen is injected and the ambient heat causes the mixture to ignite and expand. After the ignition point, the tube enlarges again to accommodate the expanding gas and the heated gas escapes out of the rear of the 'engine.' In very simple terms, a scramjet is an hourglass shaped tube into which hydrogen is injected at the narrowest point t when in a fast-enough airstream for the hydrogen to be ignited by the highly compressed air. The expanded gas drives the device forward which captures and compresses more air continuing the process until the hydrogen is exhausted (or turned off.) There are, as I understand it, no moving parts except, perhaps, a valve to turn on and off the hydrogen flow. Other than the obvious problems of attaining the necessary speed and controlling the vehicle at that speed (neither of which are unique to scramjets), are there any moving parts or complications? Of course, there are also materials problems caused by the heat but, again, those are hardly unique to this new technology. So what is the significance of yesterday's test other than as a limited proof-of-concept? ------------------------------ End of skunk-works-digest V13 #7 ******************************** To subscribe to skunk-works-digest, send the command: subscribe skunk-works-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@netwrx1.com". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-skunk-works": subscribe skunk-works-digest local-skunk-works@your.domain.net To unsubscribe, send mail to the same address, with the command: unsubscribe skunk-works-digest in the body. Administrative requests, problems, and other non-list mail can be sent to georgek@netwrx1.com. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "skunk-works-digest" in the commands above with "skunk-works". Back issues are available for viewing by a www interface located at: http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/ If you have any questions or problems please contact me at: georgek@netwrx1.com Thanks, George R. Kasica Listowner